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Speed from the Arms in the Golf Swing

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2 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

I'm not arguing anything.  The other OP made an observation about it "appears" the arms are swinging, but the speed of the arms is amplified by the unleashing of torque.  Think about hitting balls with your feet together....sure one can hit the ball, but nowhere close to the distance with maximum coil.

You still seem to be missing the point.

A large percentage of the speed of the clubhead can come from just the arms. The background is that the swing is not driven with very little effort coming from the arms, but via body rotation only.

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6 hours ago, iacas said:

You still seem to be missing the point.

A large percentage of the speed of the clubhead can come from just the arms. The background is that the swing is not driven with very little effort coming from the arms, but via body rotation only.

100% agree...body rotation.  Otherwise a baseball pitcher wouldn't bother winding-up to throw.

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On 4/12/2018 at 4:29 PM, iacas said:

In another topic, the idea that the arms contribute (significantly) to clubhead speed was discussed. Some feel the arms are "passive" or exert no "effort" while others feel they are anything but passive and exert a great amount of effort. The video and the discussion below is meant to continue that conversation.

@Puttin4Dough This.

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I think I am grasping the premise of what this video is demonstrating but I don't think that it was demonstrated properly.  If you were only trying to isolate the arms then you should be sitting in a chair ,keeping your shoulders parallel to the target line the whole time, and not setting your wrists which you showed provided 45 mph.  I doubt that you would then generate 95 mph of swing speed and would probably make about half of that. I say this because when you demonstrated the upper body swing you had the benefit of hitting against a stable base and torso because the point was to try to use no lower body at all. However you did set your wrists and that contributed with 45 mph of extra speed that you didn't have when you did the lower body only swing.  Your arms only swing has the benefit of using the wrists as a lever where as the  lower body only swing did not.  The speed of your arms was transferred to a lever point, the wrists, and speed was added, where as if you didn't set your wrists then that would have been more accurate because the speed of the arms would have been transferred directly to the club, and the speed delivered would have been much less. This is exactly what happened in the lower body swing but you had to drag the club through impact because the intent was to only use the lower body. 

The lower body only swing had no kinematic transfer of speed, where the arms only swing did, and this where I see your experiment was flawed.  I am in the camp of feeling like my upper body is passive and that I don't set my wrists but I know that it is happening at some point in the swing because I swing 118 mph.  I know that I have fast hips and I try to feel like my upper body, lower, body, and the club, are coming through impact all at one time but I know that is not what is happening in reality because feel is not real of course.  I hope my explanation was clear and that my point was made. 

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3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I think I am grasping the premise of what this video is demonstrating but I don't think that it was demonstrated properly.  If you were only trying to isolate the arms then you should be sitting in a chair ,keeping your shoulders parallel to the target line the whole time, and not setting your wrists which you showed provided 45 mph.  I doubt that you would then generate 95 mph of swing speed and would probably make about half of that. I say this because when you demonstrated the upper body swing you had the benefit of hitting against a stable base and torso because the point was to try to use no lower body at all. However you did set your wrists and that contributed with 45 mph of extra speed that you didn't have when you did the lower body only swing.  Your arms only swing has the benefit of using the wrists as a lever where as the  lower body only swing did not.  The speed of your arms was transferred to a lever point, the wrists, and speed was added, where as if you didn't set your wrists then that would have been more accurate because the speed of the arms would have been transferred directly to the club, and the speed delivered would have been much less. This is exactly what happened in the lower body swing but you had to drag the club through impact because the intent was to only use the lower body. 

The lower body only swing had no kinematic transfer of speed, where the arms only swing did, and this where I see your experiment was flawed.  I am in the camp of feeling like my upper body is passive and that I don't set my wrists but I know that it is happening at some point in the swing because I swing 118 mph.  I know that I have fast hips and I try to feel like my upper body, lower, body, and the club, are coming through impact all at one time but I know that is not what is happening in reality because feel is not real of course.  I hope my explanation was clear and that my point was made. 

The wrists are indeed part of the arms.

I know in human anatomy the arm is technically from the shoulder to the elbow but @iacasis clearly working off of the common usage which extends to the hand.

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3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I think I am grasping the premise of what this video is demonstrating but I don't think that it was demonstrated properly.  If you were only trying to isolate the arms then you should be sitting in a chair ,keeping your shoulders parallel to the target line the whole time, and not setting your wrists which you showed provided 45 mph.

The wrists are part of the arms. And…

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I am in the camp of feeling like my upper body is passive and that I don't set my wrists but I know that it is happening at some point in the swing because I swing 118 mph.

Your upper body is nowhere near passive, and your arms contribute significantly to the power and speed you're generating. Your arm muscles are firing and doing so quite a bit, regardless of your feels.

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2 hours ago, Grizvok said:

The wrists are indeed part of the arms.

I know in human anatomy the arm is technically from the shoulder to the elbow but @iacasis clearly working off of the common usage which extends to the hand.

Right but he clearly demonstrated that the wrists by themselves created 45 mph of speed. Being that the arms and wrist swing created 95 mph the arms created 50 mph.  Like I said I get the point that he was trying to convey but I disagree with how the experiment was presented because the arms and the wrists are not the same and differences between the speed created by both was clearly demonstrated in the video.  If the wrists were taken out of the equation then his arms created about 50 mph or right about the same amount as his lower body created.  The arms can be isolated just like his lower body was isolated  so I feel the presentation was misleading but I understand the concept that he was trying to convey.  

Iacas I completely agree that the arms are in no way passive and are a significant power source despite anyone's best efforts to restrict them but like I said I feel like I am restricting them but that isn't what is happening in reality. That feeling shortened up my swing quite a bit and but I experienced a huge jump in accuracy while all swing speed was maintained.  

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7 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Iacas I completely agree that the arms are in no way passive and are a significant power source despite anyone's best efforts to restrict them but like I said I feel like I am restricting them but that isn't what is happening in reality. 

Please use the “@“ Iacas (start typing and your chosen person will come up) when you want to respond to a member. 

The above portion of your comment...let’s just leave it at that. I think you’re just cluttering the point ok?

 

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4 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Please use the “@“ Iacas (start typing and your chosen person will come up) when you want to respond to a member. 

The above portion of your comment...let’s just leave it at that. I think you’re just cluttering the point ok?

 

I'm not cluttering up anything...I see fault in how the experiment was conducted and see no reason to leave anything at that and no reason to not say anything about it.  The point is if you want to talk about arm speed then isolate the arms and don't include the wrists.  The wrists were isolated, the lower body was isolated, but the arm swing included the arms and the wrists. The arms were never isolated. If the point is going to be made then I feel that it should be thoroughly made or it will be questioned which is fair in my opinion.  

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7 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I'm not cluttering up anything...I see fault in how the experiment was conducted and see no reason to leave anything at that and no reason to not say anything about it.  The point is if you want to talk about arm speed then isolate the arms and don't include the wrists.  The wrists were isolated, the lower body was isolated, but the arm swing included the arms and the wrists. The arms were never isolated. If the point is going to be made then I feel that it should be thoroughly made or it will be questioned which is fair in my opinion.  

The wrists are PART OF THE ARM. They were always going to be included in the experiment when measuring the swing speed of the arms. When you talk about the function of the arm in ANY SPORT the wrist and hands are ALWAYS included in that equation. ALWAYS.

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8 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I'm not cluttering up anything...I see fault in how the experiment was conducted and see no reason to leave anything at that and no reason to not say anything about it.  The point is if you want to talk about arm speed then isolate the arms and don't include the wrists.  The wrists were isolated, the lower body was isolated, but the arm swing included the arms and the wrists. The arms were never isolated. If the point is going to be made then I feel that it should be thoroughly made or it will be questioned which is fair in my opinion.  

Unless the wrists are fused it’s impossible to swing a club without the wrists hinging. The club would just point straight up into the sky. Nobody swings like that. It’s like saying ‘you didn’t isolate your hips because your legs moved.’

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8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Right but he clearly demonstrated that the wrists by themselves created 45 mph of speed. Being that the arms and wrist swing created 95 mph the arms created 50 mph.

The wrists are part of the arms.

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If the wrists were taken out of the equation then his arms created about 50 mph or right about the same amount as his lower body created.

It's not additive. I don't swing 50+50+45 = 145 MPH.

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The arms can be isolated just like his lower body was isolated  so I feel the presentation was misleading but I understand the concept that he was trying to convey.

You don't seem to understand the concept, actually… The concept is that it speaks to the people who feel that you can just rotate your body and let your arms "whip around behind you" while doing nothing themselves. They're just attached to your shoulders and the swing, your body's rotation, effortlessly whips them around.

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I'm not cluttering up anything...I see fault in how the experiment was conducted and see no reason to leave anything at that and no reason to not say anything about it.

You don't seem to understand what the experiment was intended to show, nor are you accepting that for all intents and purposes (based on what the experiment is intended to show), the wrists are part of the arms.

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The point is if you want to talk about arm speed then isolate the arms and don't include the wrists.

The wrists are part of the arms.

I isolated the wrists because, as part of the arms but not part of the "shoulders" at all, people who think that the majority of the clubhead's speed come from body rotation alone can be dissuaded (if they're rational and logical) by just seeing how much speed you can generate from part of the arms - the wrists.

 

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I play with a 54 yr old man, young guy, on a semi-weekend basis. When we first played, my other partner told me, "Watch this, his lower body does nothing and he doesn't make much of a turn - all arms."

That all-arms swing was putting it out 230-265 with regularity. Arms.

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On 8/13/2018 at 11:21 AM, klineka said:

Great image showing how active/engaged Brooks' arms are just after impact

Yeah. Athletes haven’t gotten better. It’s clearly the equipment as these photos prove.

E7B5D20E-1AEA-40A7-944A-BE614C0F5160.png

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1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Yeah. Athletes haven’t gotten better. It’s clearly the equipment as these photos prove.

E7B5D20E-1AEA-40A7-944A-BE614C0F5160.png

Besides being OT, a picture of Jack relaxed at the finish in comparison to Koepka at ~A7.5 holding onto the club for dear life doesn't really make your point.

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