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iacas

Speed from the Arms in the Golf Swing

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In light of watching the trailer for the Netflix movie, Zion, I guess the extreme is to imagine a swing from a person with no arms and a person with no legs. The latter is going to hit the ball farther, no?

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On 4/28/2018 at 2:20 PM, Golflivesmatter said:

Arm swing?  I think I passed out for a moment.  But to be fair, maybe I'm misinterpreting the premise. Is this a discussion about how fast the arms can swing as a data point?   Or, for to help folks who have physical limitations?  If so, cool. If not, this method completely runs counter to not only the golf swing, but even something as simple as throwing a rock to skip across a pond.  

I can't think of anything that is thrown or swung at that doesn't rely upon some degree of stored energy created from body coil, release of stored energy by rotation, like turning in a barrel from the waist down, with the arms coming thru like a whip with no tension, and the wrist releasing naturally due to the weight of the object held.

 

 

I've skipped many a rock, on many bodies of water. When I was a kid, I could skip a rock clean across the Mahoning River, which was probably 100 yards wide where I did that.

True, the energy to do so started at the ground with my feet, ran up through my legs, hips, and torso, but it didn't disappear there! That energy had to go somewhere, and it went into my right arm and hand to propel that stone!

This is just basic physics. There are conservation laws in place, like conservation of energy. Whatever you start with, you end up with, to put it simply.

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2 hours ago, billchao said:

Besides being OT, a picture of Jack relaxed at the finish in comparison to Koepka at ~A7.5 holding onto the club for dear life doesn't really make your point.

Being a bit silly aren’t you? If you need a picture of Jack in the same pose as Brooks to determine who has the more athletic, muscular build then I’m not sure what to tell ya. Yes it is OT. Lighten up, it was a joke.

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22 minutes ago, iacas said:

Please do not talk to a moderator like that. He was correct; it's off topic.

Noted. I apologize @billchao. Question please: Is there a more common ‘feel/effort’ to fire ones arms with one being the dominant instigator or is this a more personal thing among good golfers? I’m asking because although I golf left handed I have a strong right arm as well (write, throw frisbee, played tennis right handed).But I golf, bat, throw and Bowl left handed. 

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8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Question please: Is there a more common ‘feel/effort’ to fire ones arms with one being the dominant instigator or is this a more personal thing among good golfers? I’m asking because although I golf left handed I have a strong right arm as well (write, throw frisbee, played tennis right handed).But I golf, bat, throw and Bowl left handed. 

I'm interested in this as well. I do everything in life left handed except for golf. I only golf right handed because the first hand me down clubs I received from my grandma were right handed and it allowed me to golf during baseball season since I batted left handed my dad/coaches were fine with me golfing too.

I've often wondered if I would be a better golfer if I started golfing left handed, on video my full swing looks smoother, faster, and better overall left handed, but I have yet to hit any balls left handed.

I would say that I feel my left arm much more throughout my current right handed golf swing, and I rarely feel like my right arm fires or contributes in the swing (I know both arms play a role, I'm talking about what I feel) Not sure if that it because I am a left handed person, or if other right handed people feel the same during their swings.

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8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Question please: Is there a more common ‘feel/effort’ to fire ones arms with one being the dominant instigator or is this a more personal thing among good golfers? I’m asking because although I golf left handed I have a strong right arm as well (write, throw frisbee, played tennis right handed).But I golf, bat, throw and Bowl left handed. 

There's no specific single feeling. Some people feel the trail elbow extending. Some people feel the lead arm "karate chopping" or "slapping the hand" (with the back of that hand). Still others will feel the left (lead) arm pulling away from the chest (collarbones)/increasing the angle down the lead arm and the collarbones.

I don't think playing left- or right-handed matters much. It's not like one arm is significantly stronger or weaker than the other, generally, for most people. If anything, the trail hand being the more dominant hand makes some sense to me because that's more of the "control" (clubface control) type hand. Then again I've learned not to "throw" out the trail wrist angle, which many people struggle to do.

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9 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I apologize @billchao.

We're good, man.

I just thought it was weird that of all people, you'd pick Jack who by all accounts was one of the longest hitters of his era. His competitive advantage was being able to hit his long irons high and land softly. Dude had a lot of arm speed.

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1 hour ago, billchao said:

We're good, man.

I just thought it was weird that of all people, you'd pick Jack who by all accounts was one of the longest hitters of his era. His competitive advantage was being able to hit his long irons high and land softly. Dude had a lot of arm speed.

True. My point was to those who think our bombers today are only benefiting from technology. You didn’t see too many players built like Brooks, DJ, Finau, etc. in Jack’s days. These guys have incredible arm speed and it jist annoys me how Jack was the same against his peers but wants to roll back the ball. 

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NIce point above, @iacas, about not throwing out the trail wrist angle.

As to the superspeed, ignition golf, Paul Wilson, whoever he is today, and not using your arms -- a friend said to watch his tips, so yesterday morning, I received one, and noticed that he does use/speed up his arms with a fairly aggressive release.

I don't really know his point. Maybe it's that too many golfers use their arms too soon and out of sequence, so he tells people not to use them, but I think that's a disservice because you're not informing people correctly and filling their mind with something that is not true, although it may help some with their game. But then they tell others not to use their arms.

I'm just sequencing (inconsistent in getting it correct) and consistently work on it, and experimenting with the aggressive release at the ball.

Edited by Mr. Desmond

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1 hour ago, Mr. Desmond said:

I don't really know his point. Maybe it's that too many golfers use their arms too soon and out of sequence, so he tells people not to use them, but I think that's a disservice because you're not informing people correctly and filling their mind with something that is not true, although it may help some with their game. But then they tell others not to use their arms.

That's essentially the only point I've ever tried to make here:

He's pitching a non-truth, or a feel at best.

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Damn, now I'm pissed. I paid for lessons and all the "Pro" talked about was body rotation, i.e., club head speed came from body rotation much like a skater or top spinning, the rotation is what generated the club head speed. He talked little about what the arms should be doing in the downswing. He had me put the glove in the left arm pit and keep it there, etc., etc. no wonder my swing is all screwed up. I'll go to the range and work on what I learned above. Question, what should the right arm be doing, (I'm a righty)? I was told it was along for the ride and didn't contribute to speed, right or wrong?

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45 minutes ago, cooke119 said:

Damn, now I'm pissed. I paid for lessons and all the "Pro" talked about was body rotation, i.e., club head speed came from body rotation much like a skater or top spinning, the rotation is what generated the club head speed. He talked little about what the arms should be doing in the downswing. He had me put the glove in the left arm pit and keep it there, etc., etc. no wonder my swing is all screwed up. I'll go to the range and work on what I learned above. Question, what should the right arm be doing, (I'm a righty)? I was told it was along for the ride and didn't contribute to speed, right or wrong?

If you had a swing that was all arms, I could see how a pro would have you focus solely on the body pivot. But since he was saying specifically clubhead speed primarily comes from the body's rotation, yea I think you're right to be wary of his skills as a teacher. 

That's Dave Sawtell, the world record holder for longest drive while a) using only one arm and b) while sitting. The record is 194 yards. I think this example showcases just how much power comes from just the trail arm. 

You can certainly have a mostly-body type swing and play at a world class level though. Jim Furyk and David Duval do. But your current pro is wrong that the body generates most of the clubhead speed. You want the lead arm to separate from the body through impact and into the follow through. It's definitely a move that adds speed, and IMO is much easier to learn than what Furyk and Duval do. 

 

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1 hour ago, cooke119 said:

Damn, now I'm pissed. I paid for lessons and all the "Pro" talked about was body rotation, i.e., club head speed came from body rotation much like a skater or top spinning, the rotation is what generated the club head speed. He talked little about what the arms should be doing in the downswing. He had me put the glove in the left arm pit and keep it there, etc., etc. no wonder my swing is all screwed up. I'll go to the range and work on what I learned above. Question, what should the right arm be doing, (I'm a righty)? I was told it was along for the ride and didn't contribute to speed, right or wrong?

Wrong.

Of course, what you feel like it's doing might be unique to you, but the right arm contributes. That's part of the reason we bend it to begin with - so we can take the club back further, so the left and right arms can contribute.

This is what it looks like when someone doesn't use the arms in the golf swing very much and you just rotate:

armsslow.jpg

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On 8/22/2018 at 9:34 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

I've skipped many a rock, on many bodies of water. When I was a kid, I could skip a rock clean across the Mahoning River, which was probably 100 yards wide where I did that.

I am assuming this river was not as polluted at the Cuyahoga, which maybe could have been walked across by a moral.😊

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Sorry, @Carl3's reply brought this post to my attention:

On 8/22/2018 at 9:34 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

I've skipped many a rock, on many bodies of water. When I was a kid, I could skip a rock clean across the Mahoning River, which was probably 100 yards wide where I did that.

Highly, highly doubtful. Most people can't throw a golf ball 100 yards. I don't think for one second you skipped a rock 100 yards. I think the world record is something like 130 yards.

On 8/22/2018 at 9:34 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

True, the energy to do so started at the ground with my feet, ran up through my legs, hips, and torso, but it didn't disappear there! That energy had to go somewhere, and it went into my right arm and hand to propel that stone!

The energy went into moving your body.

On 8/22/2018 at 9:34 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

This is just basic physics. There are conservation laws in place, like conservation of energy. Whatever you start with, you end up with, to put it simply.

No, it's not. Your body is not a closed system. You start with no movement (not any that will throw a rock), and then use your muscles (not a closed system) and interact with your surroundings (the ground, your own body, and to a much lesser extent, the air, your clothes, etc.) around you to generate motion.

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

Wrong.

Of course, what you feel like it's doing might be unique to you, but the right arm contributes. That's part of the reason we bend it to begin with - so we can take the club back further, so the left and right arms can contribute.

This is what it looks like when someone doesn't use the arms in the golf swing very much and you just rotate:

armsslow.jpg

Do you have an example of someone who uses only arms and not enough body rotation? Excluding examples of someone throwing the club over the top- an otherwise good swing but only arms. Is that even possible? I suppose the gentleman in the wheelchair is a good example. 

Seems to me that it’s better to error on the side of too much arms than body rotation-centric. At least you’ll have some speed. 

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56 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Do you have an example of someone who uses only arms and not enough body rotation?

Most people use some body, obviously.

And those that don't use their body "enough" generally do it because of something else - they pivot stall because of some other factor, not because "they're just using their arms."

Backswings it's a bit more common to see someone, particularly newer players, using too much "arms."

56 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Seems to me that it’s better to error on the side of too much arms than body rotation-centric. At least you’ll have some speed. 

I don't know about saying things like that.

The point of the topic is simply to dispel the idea that the arms are "passive" in the golf swing.

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