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Speed from the Arms in the Golf Swing

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On 4/12/2018 at 1:29 PM, iacas said:

In another topic, the idea that the arms contribute (significantly) to clubhead speed was discussed. Some feel the arms are "passive" or exert no "effort" while others feel they are anything but passive and exert a great amount of effort. The video and the discussion below is meant to continue that conversation.

Is this scientific? No.

Am I able to do each of the three variations perfectly? No, but I tried as hard as I could, and was completely willing for the "turn only" swings to demonstrate a higher speed than they got (and, TBH, I was surprised at how much speed I could generate with just the arms).

Does it make clear that the arms contribute (and significantly so) to clubhead speed with a golf club? I think so, yeah.


I tried my best to make three different kinds of swings:

  • All arms, and not an exaggerated one, but one where the left arm goes across the chest, the right elbow folds to about 90°, the wrists hinge a normal amount, etc. Very little to no torso rotation. Speeds were 87 to 102, with a 100 and a 95 on the "short" swing thrown in at the end.
  • Body turn only. I tried to go 90°, and then to pivot as hard as I normally would. The wrists, due to the acceleration of the pivot, do "load" slightly, but I got speeds of 52 MPH, 63 MPH, and 59 MPH.
  • Body turn only with loaded arms. I tried to let my arms be "loose" here and you can see that they lag well behind - the left arm stays loaded across the chest, the right elbow gets pushed behind the shirt seam, etc. Speeds were 63 MPH, 66 MPH, and 74 MPH when I turned well beyond the 90° that I'd normally turn.
  • Bonus of "wrists only" showing about 44 and 45 MPH.

Again, these aren't "additive." I don't swing 100 MPH + 66 MPH because I use my arms AND rotate my body.

But I do think this video demonstrates that the arms "do" things in the golf swing. That they're a key and significant source of power and speed.

That, quite often in my teaching, I have to tell someone to "swing their arms down faster," because they aren't doing enough with their arms:

RM.jpg

And yes, there are times when the body lags (though quite often when the body isn't working properly, it's because the player needs more time to drop the clubhead down or they'd just wipe across it… so they stall out so they have a chance of hitting it a little more from the inside than they otherwise could) and I have to teach them to swing with their body more. Those times are much more rare, though, in my experience.

I put two other golfers through the same tests. The third golfer kept rotating even when he was just trying to do the arms thing, and when he did the arms thing, he was much slower than I was. He was still faster than his body rotation only motion, but because he also bent his elbows during that drill, I can't really vouch for any of his results as they were not very well done.

The second golfer swung with the arms only test in the mid 80s. With the body turn only, he was in the upper 60s. So, closer than I was. The loose arms and turning only was about the same as his arms only - mid 80s. This golfer, I would suggest, derives more of his speed from his rotation than I do, but the arms alone were still the highest speeds, so they still contribute quite a bit to even his swing.


Now, there are golfers out there and worse yet, instructors out there teaching that the arms do nothing on the downswing. That they just get dragged along by the body's rotation, that they're "passive" and that the arms are not supplying any "effort".

I've seen a bunch of actual scientific studies which show the folly in that line of thinking. Heck, consider a kinematic sequence - each segment further out accelerates and reaches a peak speed later than the segment prior. If you truly just moved your arms to the top, and then just spun your body… your arms would lag WAY behind. Kinda like this:

Analyzr Image Export.jpg

On the left, one of my attempts at using just my arms. On the right, my attempt to make a normal backswing and then swing down with just my body. Guess which was faster? The left, by a lot.


This isn't "proof" and it's not scientific. I'm sure I didn't do any of the things I attempted to do perfectly.

However, I do feel that this illustrates just how much speed the arms alone can generate.

Now… Here's what I'd like: try to swing each of the three ways yourself:

  • Only arms (in front of you, no turning).
  • Body turning only (backswing and downswing).
  • Body turning only (downswing only).

Report back. Have a friend record you (because he can also tell you whether you cheated and turned when you weren't supposed to, for example).

Agree 100%.  Not sure where the thinking comes in about using the 'big muscles' to motor the golf club.  yeah, the torso and trunk have big muscles, but they certainly don't move fast like the arms and wrists do, but are better served to create the momentum required to get the arms swinging at their maximum speed.  A few months ago I did some experimenting with my swing speed finding out what my body needs to do in the golf swing to swing its fastest, and pretty much the answer in every case was to swing the arms as fast as you can at the bottom which is something maybe not enough people practice when trying to gain distance, especially when there is a ball in the way, I think people have a tendency to hit the ball, and feel as though their job is now done and they start decelerating.   

This is also why I think overspeed training is a pretty good thing for people who want to gain speed because it teaches them what it feels like to go fast.  The only problem I have with some of these swing speed trainers is that they progress heavier and heavier until the club is actually heavier than a driver, which I feel completely defeats the purpose of overspeed training.  You might develop certain muscles by using the heavier club, but youll actually be training your arms to swing slower.  flip a club upside down, take some baseball swings back and forth as fast as you can 10-20 times, then hit a shot and the ball will probably explode off the clubface.

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7 hours ago, iacas said:

Wrong.

Of course, what you feel like it's doing might be unique to you, but the right arm contributes. That's part of the reason we bend it to begin with - so we can take the club back further, so the left and right arms can contribute.

This is what it looks like when someone doesn't use the arms in the golf swing very much and you just rotate:

armsslow.jpg

I'll take what you showed to the range once it warms up and try using my arms more, especially my right arm.

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Relax the arms at address and keep them relaxed throughout the swing.  Anyone focusing on anything that could induce tension in the arms is in for a lifetime of lousy golf.

9 hours ago, JetFan1983 said:

If you had a swing that was all arms, I could see how a pro would have you focus solely on the body pivot. But since he was saying specifically clubhead speed primarily comes from the body's rotation, yea I think you're right to be wary of his skills as a teacher. 

That's Dave Sawtell, the world record holder for longest drive while a) using only one arm and b) while sitting. The record is 194 yards. I think this example showcases just how much power comes from just the trail arm. 

You can certainly have a mostly-body type swing and play at a world class level though. Jim Furyk and David Duval do. But your current pro is wrong that the body generates most of the clubhead speed. You want the lead arm to separate from the body through impact and into the follow through. It's definitely a move that adds speed, and IMO is much easier to learn than what Furyk and Duval do. 

Good point.  What folks say their pro's teach them may not sound correct because they are working on something specific to that person.

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1 hour ago, Puttin4Dough said:

Relax the arms at address and keep them relaxed throughout the swing.  Anyone focusing on anything that could induce tension in the arms is in for a lifetime of lousy golf.

Another example of why it's generally a bad idea to make absolute statements.

I've known plenty of people who have tension, feel tension, feel their muscles working hard, whatever… and would have to give you (or me) several shots a side.

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2 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

Relax the arms at address and keep them relaxed throughout the swing.  Anyone focusing on anything that could induce tension in the arms is in for a lifetime of lousy golf.

I think it depends on what we mean by tension. The arms shouldn't be rigid but we are trying to move the club fast, there are forces acting on the club and we're gripping it pretty firmly.

I'm certainly not keeping my arms "relaxed" and I hit this 7-iron farther than I normally do focusing on going harder with my arms.

Check out these guys arms coming into impact

arms.jpg

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1 hour ago, mvmac said:

I think it depends on what we mean by tension. The arms shouldn't be rigid but we are trying to move the club fast, there are forces acting on the club and we're gripping it pretty firmly.

I'm certainly not keeping my arms "relaxed" and I hit this 7-iron farther than I normally do focusing on going harder with my arms.

Check out these guys arms coming into impact

arms.jpg

Nothing should be tense or relaxed on purpose...the body is perfectly accustomed to making these adjustments for you.  When you pick up an object the body is pretty good at predicting the minimal amount of effort needed to get the work done.  Focused tension or relaxation in my opinion distracts from the real goal of sending momentum towards a target and striking a golf ball along the way.  The body is pretty darn good at predicting these things for you and so I don't understand consciously relaxing or tensing any part of the body as neither will be as fast as using just the right amount to get the job done.  

Being that I played both righty and lefty, and am left hand dominant , my swings feel completely different when I play left and right handed in relation to my arms.  My left handed swing feels more like my left arm is punching through impact where as my right handed swing feels more like I am throwing a Frisbee with a straight left arm. I generate 24 more miles per hour lefty than I do righty  and I think that has a lot to do with it because of how I bring power up from the ground. 

I personally try to feel the swing as a whole motion while being aware of the club moving around me and not focusing on any one aspect.  I analyze impact after every shot but in no other swinging action are individual body parts even thought of.  If the instrument is heavy enough then the arms have almost no influence on that action and the lower body being stable is paramount.  A golf club under force is pulling away from the body a tremendous amount so the body is doing well to just hold on as it can't have much influence on it shortly into the downswing.  I am more in the camp of do less because the body will adjust to get the work done with the minimal amount of effort because that is what the body is programmed to do.  Too much or too little will be inefficient.  

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8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Nothing should be tense or relaxed on purpose...the body is perfectly accustomed to making these adjustments for you.

I don't agree, and I have to work with students all the time on how tense or loose to make something. The golf swing is not as simple as "picking something up."

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The body is pretty darn good at predicting these things for you and so I don't understand consciously relaxing or tensing any part of the body as neither will be as fast as using just the right amount to get the job done.

Could that be… because you're not a golf instructor, and thus, your experiences are incredibly limited compared to, I don't know, @mvmac's? (Who was an instructor, but even if he hadn't been, has traveled thousands and thousands of miles, spent hundreds of hours reading, thousands of hours learning, etc.).

To make it simple, my opinions are:

  • The golf swing is not perfectly relaxed, nor is it tense.
  • The right amount of "tension" or "force" or "effort" at the right times can serve a person well.
  • Feel ain't real, and feel varies by person.
  • In general, I have more people relax certain things than any of the other words in bullet point #2, but the times I have to use BP#2 type words aren't so small as to be insignificant.
8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If the instrument is heavy enough then the arms have almost no influence on that action and the lower body being stable is paramount.

I'm not going to try to unpack what "stable" means here, so…

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

A golf club under force is pulling away from the body a tremendous amount so the body is doing well to just hold on as it can't have much influence on it shortly into the downswing.

A big part of the reason I advocate for firmer grips. You're gonna have to hold on firmly at some point… may as well do it from the start and keep the pressure relatively consistent throughout the swing.

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8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Nothing should be tense or relaxed on purpose...the body is perfectly accustomed to making these adjustments for you.  When you pick up an object the body is pretty good at predicting the minimal amount of effort needed to get the work done.  Focused tension or relaxation in my opinion distracts from the real goal of sending momentum towards a target and striking a golf ball along the way.  The body is pretty darn good at predicting these things for you and so I don't understand consciously relaxing or tensing any part of the body as neither will be as fast as using just the right amount to get the job done.  

Yet, there are times when the body underestimates the required strength to hold onto something. I've been pulling my bowling ball bag behind me when the wheels hit something and I lose my grip. My grip is perfectly fine for anything other than the bag suddenly stopping.

Holding the golf club at address might be perfectly OK with a light grip, but may be way underestimating the required strength needed to control the club, or maintain consistent grip pressure during the swings movement.

I can grip a 20lb weight lightly if it's not moving. If I start to move the weight I need to grip it way more tightly.

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I personally try to feel the swing as a whole motion while being aware of the club moving around me and not focusing on any one aspect.  I analyze impact after every shot but in no other swinging action are individual body parts even thought of.  If the instrument is heavy enough then the arms have almost no influence on that action and the lower body being stable is paramount.  A golf club under force is pulling away from the body a tremendous amount so the body is doing well to just hold on as it can't have much influence on it shortly into the downswing.  I am more in the camp of do less because the body will adjust to get the work done with the minimal amount of effort because that is what the body is programmed to do.  Too much or too little will be inefficient.  

This just sounds to me that you have no definitive way to describing what you are doing, so you are using subjective language.

What you feel doesn't matter in terms of describing what you are actually doing. You could feel something and look on video and see something completely different.

 

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4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Holding the golf club at address might be perfectly OK with a light grip, but may be way underestimating the required strength needed to control the club, or maintain consistent grip pressure during the swings movement.

I've had people (teenagers, but still…) accidentally lose the grip on a SuperSpeed club when they were using them. Fortunately it was in the netting area, and it didn't fly too far or damage anything.

But yeah, there are times your body doesn't hold on, and I prefer players not to make huge changes to their grip firmness mid-swing.

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Great topic and discussion. I have to admit, I didn't read all 5 pages. But I love the discourse.

I'm absolutely in the camp that the arms are NOT passive in the golf swing. They actively participate from address through finish. I feel like some of the challenge here is that folks seem to contextualize the role of, say, the arms in how it feels to them when they are swinging well. It strikes me that this conversation is really about the role the arms actually play in the swing - but much of the conversation ends up being about the feel cues that players use to accomplish specific things.

To be sure, effective instruction is about not only understanding the swing and the opportunities and limitations presented by the student. It's also about communicating to that student in a way the student understands. To describe the arms as along for the ride seems ineffective at best, and dangerous at worst. 

Look at Tiger's swing today and you see that he is wider on the way back than he was previously. Look at his forearms - you can clearly see the muscles in his left arm. Some might suggest he's an anomaly and 'efforts' more than most. So look at Zach Johnson then. His efficient move delivers the club beautifully at impact. Again, you can clearly see the muscles in both forearms - suggesting a measure of 'tension' through the swing.

For me (note these are my feel cues), I do try to avoid a sense of 'tension' in my arms - primarily because tension in my arms often comes packaged with tension in my wrists - which is no bueno. I was fortunate to have taken a 1/2 day lesson with Jim Flick. I'll always remember his 'firm grip, loose wrist' demonstration. So, again for me, I try to avoid a sense of creating tension in my arms.

That said, I like to think about extension of my arms. On my best shots, I feel fully extended through impact and then through position 3 in the ZJ image. With my teaching pro, we certainly work ground up, but we've arrived at a place where I need to count on my lower body doing what it needs (creating space between the knees from the transition down, then posting up and firing onto lead leg with belt buckle rotating toward the target), and my upper body needs to 'cover' the ball. That means I can swing my arms as fast as I can. For me, that also means I need to maintain my spine angle and rotate my shoulders on a flatter plane than I previously did. 

tigerextension.jpg

zachjohnson.jpg

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21 hours ago, iacas said:

Another example of why it's generally a bad idea to make absolute statements.

I've known plenty of people who have tension, feel tension, feel their muscles working hard, whatever… and would have to give you (or me) several shots a side.

I didn't make this up....this is what Nicklaus discussed:

JACK NICKLAUS: Throughout my career, I invariably came to holes where I needed a few extra yards--carrying a hazard off the tee, or hitting a drive far enough on a par 5 so I could go for the green in two. But when I consciously tried to swing harder, the ball didn't go farther. I learned, however, that if I thought of three things, I could hit it longer:


1) Relax my arms at address and keep them relaxed throughout the swing.

2) Start the club back lower and slower, even slower than I thought possible.

3) Make sure to complete my backswing.

Plus, you guys talk about tension related to holding onto the club.  The OP was right, your body will naturally adjust to the task at hand.  The example of dropping a bowling bag due to a bump in the sidewalk is fine, but if you know the sidewalk has bumps you'd adjust your grip accordingly.  During the swing the grip should be as light as possible, but due to weight of the club, grip tension will naturally increase....nothing new here has been invented...but the fact is one wants the least amount of added tension possible.  I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.

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14 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

I didn't make this up....this is what Nicklaus discussed:

You didn't say that. You made an absolute statement with "anyone."

14 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

But when I consciously tried to swing harder, the ball didn't go farther. I learned, however, that if I thought of three things, I could hit it longer:

That's one guy. Yeah, it's Jack, but that's one guy. There are others who would tell you that to hit the ball harder, they swing harder.

14 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

Plus, you guys talk about tension related to holding onto the club. The OP was right, your body will naturally adjust to the task at hand.

A lot of people's bodies don't "naturally" adjust. A lot of people's bodies are too tense. A good number (a minority) are too loose at parts of the swing. They aren't "naturally" adjusting.

And as it relates to grip pressure, "adjusting" throughout the swing is often counter-productive. They'd be better off gripping it more firmly at first and maintaining a more steady grip pressure throughout the whole swing.

14 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

During the swing the grip should be as light as possible…

 

17 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

but due to weight of the club, grip tension will naturally increase.

That's often not a good thing.

17 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

but the fact is one wants the least amount of added tension possible.  I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.

And yet here we are.

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5 minutes ago, iacas said:

You didn't say that. You made an absolute statement with "anyone."

That's one guy. Yeah, it's Jack, but that's one guy. There are others who would tell you that to hit the ball harder, they swing harder.

A lot of people's bodies don't "naturally" adjust. A lot of people's bodies are too tense. A good number (a minority) are too loose at parts of the swing. They aren't "naturally" adjusting.

And as it relates to grip pressure, "adjusting" throughout the swing is often counter-productive. They'd be better off gripping it more firmly at first and maintaining a more steady grip pressure throughout the whole swing.

 

That's often not a good thing.

And yet here we are.

Jack is "one guy"...really?  So how many wins do you have on tour?  

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2 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

Jack is "one guy"...really?  So how many wins do you have on tour?  

And if I got Tiger on here to tell you that to hit the ball farther he swings harder, then what?

Or a long drive guy. Or Henrik Stenson. Or Justin Thomas. Or any PGA Tour player. So yeah, it's one guy.

Never mind the rest of your post that I've replied to, or the points @mvmac brought up.


Hell, I hit 140 MPH on SuperSpeed yesterday, and I can tell you for certain I was swinging about as hard as I could. There was tension, muscles were firing, I was swinging with effort from just about every part of my body.

If I tried to swing "looser" or "freer" or anything else… I'd drop MPH.

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I know when I hit my longest drives I'm definitely not what I would describe as relaxed during the swing. I'm not stiff by any means, but I'm definitely putting a fair amount of effort into it.

Different feels for different players. What feels to me like an OTT slice swing could feel like a hook swing to someone else. So long as you're not stiff as a board and you're not as floppy as those blower people it'll be a lot of personal preference.

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12 minutes ago, iacas said:

And if I got Tiger on here to tell you that to hit the ball farther he swings harder, then what?

Or a long drive guy. Or Henrik Stenson. Or Justin Thomas. Or any PGA Tour player. So yeah, it's one guy.

Never mind the rest of your post that I've replied to, or the points @mvmac brought up.


Hell, I hit 140 MPH on SuperSpeed yesterday, and I can tell you for certain I was swinging about as hard as I could. There was tension, muscles were firing, I was swinging with effort from just about every part of my body.

If I tried to swing "looser" or "freer" or anything else… I'd drop MPH.

As you say....feel ain't real....140 mph was due to the least tension possible.  It's misleading to tell folks tension creates speed...it's not true.  Again...nothing new here...all physics.

And if you define NIcklaus as being "one guy", then I can't have meaningful discussion on this topic.  Nicklaus would easily stay with, or out-drive the guys on tour today....he was hitting 350 yard drives with old balls and drivers.  Add Palmer to that list too.  McIlroy hit a persimmon driver with balata ball 272 at Cherry Hill.  He was humbled because that's where Palmer drove the 340 yard green in the early 60's.   

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11 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

As you say....feel ain't real....140 mph was due to the least tension possible.

Oh for goodness sake.

You can't swing 140 MPH without using your muscles, without feeling a ton of force and speed and torque and expending energy.

11 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

It's misleading to tell folks tension creates speed...it's not true.  Again...nothing new here...all physics.

Please find the part where I said anything like "tension creates speed." I'll save you the time, because I haven't.

I'll also save us the time, because you cannot show the physics here.

And actually, now that I think about it, there are times when tension can create speed. The stretch-shorten cycle creates tension in your body, and the undoing of that tension creates speed. So, there's an example.

C'mon, you're out of your depth here. I've disagreed with two statements you've made:

  • Anyone "feeling tension" is doing it badly.
  • The body naturally adjusts to things.

I believe both of those are incorrect at least a good chunk of the time. Others have told you the same thing. That's it. If you want to keep reading into things that were not said, or putting words in the mouths of others, go ahead. It doesn't fly, though.

11 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

And if you define NIcklaus as being "one guy", then I can't have meaningful discussion on this topic.

🤦‍♂️

Feel ain't real. Jack is one guy.

Other guys will tell you they're expending a bunch of energy as they can to generate speed. They're not feeling "loose." They might even say they're creating tension. Heck, some guys used to feel that they were resisting with their lower body - creating tension between their upper and lower bodies - to create speed.

11 minutes ago, Puttin4Dough said:

Nicklaus would easily stay with, or out-drive the guys on tour today....he was hitting 350 yard drives with old balls and drivers. Add Palmer to that list too. McIlroy hit a persimmon driver with balata ball 272 at Cherry Hill. He was humbled because that's where Palmer drove the 340 yard green in the early 60's.   

If you don't think that Cameron Champ, Dustin Johnson, etc. could hang with Jack, I don't know what to tell you. Jack occasionally hit a 350-yard drive, but he spent most of his career popping them out there 265 to 280. His average was 269 the first year they measured these things (he was 40, he had persimmon and balata, etc.).

Dustin Johnson also hit Jack's 1-iron 290. The Cherry Hills thing was a lark - they were given a swing or two and did it for the heck of it.

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9 minutes ago, iacas said:

Oh for goodness sake.

You can't swing 140 MPH without using your muscles, without feeling a ton of force and speed and torque and expending energy.

Please find the part where I said anything like "tension creates speed." I'll save you the time, because I haven't.

I'll also save us the time, because you cannot show the physics here.

And actually, now that I think about it, there are times when tension can create speed. The stretch-shorten cycle creates tension in your body, and the undoing of that tension creates speed. So, there's an example.

C'mon, you're out of your depth here. I've disagreed with two statements you've made:

  • Anyone "feeling tension" is doing it badly.
  • The body naturally adjusts to things.

I believe both of those are incorrect at least a good chunk of the time. Others have told you the same thing. That's it. If you want to keep reading into things that were not said, or putting words in the mouths of others, go ahead. It doesn't fly, though.

🤦‍♂️

Feel ain't real. Jack is one guy.

Other guys will tell you they're expending a bunch of energy as they can to generate speed. They're not feeling "loose." They might even say they're creating tension. Heck, some guys used to feel that they were resisting with their lower body - creating tension between their upper and lower bodies - to create speed.

If you don't think that Cameron Champ, Dustin Johnson, etc. could hang with Jack, I don't know what to tell you. Jack occasionally hit a 350-yard drive, but he spent most of his career popping them out there 265 to 280. His average was 269 the first year they measured these things (he was 40, he had persimmon and balata, etc.).

Dustin Johnson also hit Jack's 1-iron 290. The Cherry Hills thing was a lark - they were given a swing or two and did it for the heck of it.

Exactly my point Erik....everyone defines "tension" differently.   It's why the topic is too elusive to define benchmarks.

Nicklaus focused on loose arms...to say he did something else is pure conjecture to fit one's own narrative.  He said what he said...it's over.  I don't try to teach tour player swings because all too often what they say they do isn't what we see on video.  

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