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iacas

Speed from the Arms in the Golf Swing

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@Righty to Lefty, good pic of Phelps reacting to the force of the water  🙄

14SWIM-160-superJumbo-v2.jpg

16 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The force comes from the ground...and then is transferred from the big ball (Earth) through the body to the little ball. The arms are no more or less important than the legs, hips, core, arms, wrists or the club because any weakness in the chain will lead to a leak of power and inefficiency. They are all used to get the work done.  I was joking with mvmac for posting a picture of "proof" that the speed is coming from the arms from a still shot at impact.

The pic wasn't proof that the arms contribute more to speed, that's already been measured. The pic was just a "common sense" look that the arms aren't loose or relaxed.

13 hours ago, iacas said:

The ground is an inert platform.

Do you understand this @Righty to Lefty?

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6 hours ago, mvmac said:

@Righty to Lefty, good pic of Phelps reacting to the force of the water  🙄

14SWIM-160-superJumbo-v2.jpg

The pic wasn't proof that the arms contribute more to speed, that's already been measured. The pic was just a "common sense" look that the arms aren't loose or relaxed.

Do you understand this @Righty to Lefty?

The Earth is an inert ball?  

in·ert
/iˈnərt/
adjective
 
  1. lacking the ability or strength to move.
    "she lay inert in her bed"
    synonyms: unmoving, motionless, immobile, still, stock-still, stationary, static, dormant, sleeping;More
     
       
    • lacking vigor.
      "an inert political system"
    • chemically inactive.
      synonyms: chemically inactive
      "the inert gases in meteorites"

       

      The Earth is far from an inert ball.....if you put force into it then it puts an equal and opposite force back out.  If it didn't then you would not be able to jump off the ground.  Who said that the arms were relaxed? I never did...I said that if you give the body a task then the body is pretty damn good at doing the rest...especially through repetition and experience.  Simply saying that the arms produce the most speed is misleading because the shaft produces more speed so is it then fair to say that shaft speed is more important? But then again the club head moves faster than the shaft so what about it?  The fact is speed is generated from a stable base bringing power up from the ground and transferring it through the body and club and to the golf ball. The further away from the center of rotation the faster objects travel and that is just scientific fact but I just find it damaging to focus on just one aspect because for the arms to move faster, all the other parts of the swing would need to move faster or sequencing of the swing will be ruined and become less efficient.  Come on Man !! 

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2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The Earth is far from an inert ball.....if you put force into it then it puts an equal and opposite force back out.

It doesn't supply energy itself. That was the very clear and obvious point.

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If it didn't then you would not be able to jump off the ground.

You're embarrassing yourself at this point.

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Simply saying that the arms produce the most speed is misleading because the shaft produces more speed so is it then fair to say that shaft speed is more important?

:doh: 

The shaft doesn't produce any speed of its own. It too is inert and does not have any muscles. Theoretically it can produce a MPH or two because it bends.

Saying "the arms produce the most speed" is not misleading when people actually understand what's being said.

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The fact is speed is generated from a stable base bringing power up from the ground and transferring it through the body and club and to the golf ball.

Nobody's saying otherwise. That's not what the topic is about.

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I just find it damaging to focus on just one aspect

Again, this isn't a lesson. It's a discussion topic designed to educate people on the fact that the arms are responsible for the majority of speed in the golf swing.

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

because for the arms to move faster, all the other parts of the swing would need to move faster or sequencing of the swing will be ruined and become less efficient.  Come on Man !!

You're wrong here. And who says the sequencing of the swing is "efficient" now? For a lot of golfers moving the arms faster IMPROVES the swing and INCREASES the efficiency.


So once again, a post from @Righty to Lefty that:

  • Ignores basically all of the facts put forth in a recent post (mine, at the end of page 7).
  • Includes stuff that's not part of the discussion, often semi-true, as if this bolsters your case ("power starts from the ground up…" - not the topic here, man - nobody's saying swing ONLY with your arms).
  • Includes more erroneous statements ("for the arms to move faster, the other parts have to move faster or efficiency drops…")

Your act has worn thin, and we're done with it.

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28 minutes ago, iacas said:

It doesn't supply energy itself. That was the very clear and obvious point.

 

Sure it does...it supplies force production in direct proportion to what you put into it.  During the golf swing the golfer has to go "get the ground" to bring force up to create acceleration.  The more acceleration needed...the more force that must be called up as evidenced by the difference between a sprinter and a long distance runner.  The sprinter ( faster) athlete drives into the ground at 5 times his body weight while the long distance runner (slower) athlete is at 3 times his body weight.  In order to be efficient EVERYTHING must be faster in order to increase performance and not just any certain body parts such as his arm swing.  In order to be efficient the body must be able to deal with this stress or it will break down over time.  If the premise of this thread is the observation that the arms are moving fast during the golf swing... then okay...but you are saying to try and increase the speed of just the arms and that is not efficient nor will it lead to better performance.  Everything needs to move faster if the intent is to be faster.  And before you say this video isn't relevant to a golf swing it very much is because force production is the same for all sports where force is brought up from the ground (so pretty much all of them.) 

 

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4 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Sure it does...it supplies force production in direct proportion to what you put into it.

Did you even read what he wrote.

6 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

During the golf swing the golfer has to go "get the ground" to bring force up to create acceleration.  The more acceleration needed...the more force that must be called up as evidenced by the difference between a sprinter and a long distance runner.

Sprinting is not golfing.

7 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

In order to be efficient EVERYTHING must be faster in order to increase performance and not just any certain body parts such as his arm swing.

No one said just use the arms. So stop going back to that point. You can clearly assign a proportional value to what supplies the most speed to the golf swing, and it is the arms.

8 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If the premise of this thread is the observation that the arms are moving fast during the golf swing... then okay...but you are saying to try and increase the speed of just the arms and that is not efficient nor will it lead to better performance.  Everything needs to move faster if the intent is to be faster. 

Here is a common thing. You tell the golfer to swing the arms faster. They will instinctively rotate faster as well.

No one is saying just isolate the arms. You keep seeing it only as that. It's like you can't connect the dots.

 

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Just now, boogielicious said:

“To run fast, Sprinters apply forces up to 5 times their body weight”

The ground doesn’t apply forces @Righty to Lefty. Physics isn’t your strong suit.

Obviously watching the video isn't your strong suit.  I didn't say it...the people conducting the experiment did to show the differences in force production.  Energy is not lost so if the sprinter is applying 5 times their body weight into the ground then it is in turn being sent back through them in the form of force production or acceleration. 

That is simple physics: "In physics and chemistry, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant; it is said to be conserved over time. This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another.  Source: 
Wikipedia. "

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41 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Sure it does...it supplies force production in direct proportion to what you put into it.

No, it reacts by remaining inert, a platform against which the body supplies forces.

And, you've still yet to respond to the post of mine at the bottom of page 7, and now because of your newer posts, you're never going to get the chance.

41 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

During the golf swing the golfer has to go "get the ground" to bring force up to create acceleration.

The golfer does not "bring force up" from the ground, and the vertical ground REACTION forces contribute very little to clubhead speed, as I explained in detail in the post that you seem to have ignored.

41 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If the premise of this thread is the observation that the arms are moving fast during the golf swing... 

Here's one of your many problems: you do not even understand the topic. This is NOT the topic. Why would we need a topic to say that "the arms are moving fast during the golf swing?"

41 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

but you are saying to try and increase the speed of just the arms and that is not efficient nor will it lead to better performance.

You. Are. Wrong.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You're wrong here. And who says the sequencing of the swing is "efficient" now? For a lot of golfers moving the arms faster IMPROVES the swing and INCREASES the efficiency.

Moving on…

41 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Everything needs to move faster if the intent is to be faster.

Not necessarily true.

41 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

And before you say this video isn't relevant to a golf swing it very much is because force production is the same for all sports where force is brought up from the ground (so pretty much all of them.) 

Forces are not "brought up from the ground." Forces are generated by gravity and your muscles, basically.

28 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Energy is not lost so if the sprinter is applying 5 times their body weight into the ground then it is in turn being sent back through them in the form of force production or acceleration.

Energy is lost all the time. Friction/wind resistance, compression of the soles of the shoe, etc. And, those runners weren't accelerating. They were running at a constant pace (the treadmill pace).

28 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

That is simple physics: "In physics and chemistry, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant

@Righty to Lefty, I know that you're restricted from posting in this topic anymore, but the body is not a closed (or isolated) system. The body has muscles and is capable of CREATING energy.

The ground, in these contexts, is not creating energy.


We rarely have to take these steps, but the moderation team - independent of me - made the decision to restrict @Righty to Lefty from posting further in this topic. We rarely take this action (less than once per year in our history) but in this situation it is for the best of everyone else. @Righty to Lefty has repeatedly shown a poor pattern of discussion, ignores counter-arguments, creates straw men even after he's specifically told "nobody is saying that," and shows a clear lack of knowledge of physics and biomechanics. His posts do not benefit or even advance this discussion.

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@iacas I sometimes am not sure why you bother.-But then I realize that because someone else might read this later on-Someone who is not R2L-They might benefit from seeing you make simple statements that destroy the nonsense from R2L and people like him.

R2L is the worst kind of person to discuss things with.-Can not actually understand the topic and thinks he is right but persecuted all the time.

And I am sure that he is playing the victim behind the scenes and moping about how different opinions are not ever heard here-Ignoring that this is not an opinion anymore. PhD people as you have said back your statements-Which you made after visiting with them. I have talked with Dr. Kwon-He could run circles around R2L intellectually, but R2L just plays the victim card and posts random bullshit that he hopes-I guess-will distract everyone from realizing that he has no actual knowledge of this topic.

Hell he does not even know what the topic is.-You were right with the straw man comment.


It is obvious to almost everyone else who plays golf that the speed comes mostly from the arms. That this is backed up by biomechanics people solidifies that as a fact.

But this R2L joker can not even read the OP and understand that you are not telling people to only focus on this or that you are not telling people not to use their legs.

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11 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

It is obvious to almost everyone else who plays golf that the speed comes mostly from the arms. That this is backed up by biomechanics people solidifies that as a fact.

It would be interesting to ask around on this one. It's easy to say so with most of the people on the forum. Is that a good measure of the entire golf population.

What percentage the entire golf population do you think know the ball flight laws? Its probably a higher percentage for those who regularly visit this forum.

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7 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It would be interesting to ask around on this one. It's easy to say so with most of the people on the forum. Is that a good measure of the entire golf population

You are probably right-Most might not say that offhand.

But I think that with a simple test or the OP or a very short conversation most could see it as truthful.

But yes-You are right that most might say rotation or something at first.-I sometimes forget that there are a lot of golfers out there who are not on the site or who have not taken lessons from good instructors.

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@Phil McGleno… let's also try to stick to the topic. That was borderline… send the guy a PM if you want to discuss the "meta" stuff about how someone posts in a topic without talking about the topic itself too much.

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

but you are saying to try and increase the speed of just the arms and that is not efficient nor will it lead to better performance.

I wanted to go back to this one, because it's one of the simpler things for people to understand, and one of the main points of the article.

You're absolutely wrong - and this isn't really a matter of opinion, or I wouldn't use the word "wrong"1 - about this.

01.jpg

Orange lines across the shoulder are measured. The lead arm and shaft are measured with yellow. The red line is where the zipper (if sweatpants had zippers) would be.

02.jpg

This measurement is pretty simple and just shows the angle from the lead arm relative to the shoulders.

Now, I'm not claiming that any of these measurements are super accurate. In the case of the latter, for example, the plane on which the photo is taken is not perpendicular to the forearm/collarbone plane. But in comparison the photos are still quite illustrative.

To be clear, too, these are two juniors in my Junior Elite Program. They're working to get better over several months, but the changes you see here were in literally five minutes. It was one of their evaluations, and the point isn't to get a full lesson, it's to find out what their "next piece" is. So while both are improved, they're both still likely not even as good as both players are now, a week or two later.

Now, @Righty to Lefty said: "but you are saying to try and increase the speed of just the arms and that is not efficient nor will it lead to better performance."

Both of these players got instruction that you could boil down to "increase the speed of the arms."2

Which swing is "more efficient"? Which swing is going to have "better performance"? In both instances, the answer is the one on the right.

@Righty to Lefty also said this:

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

because for the arms to move faster, all the other parts of the swing would need to move faster or sequencing of the swing will be ruined and become less efficient.  Come on Man !! 

The "Come on Man!!" comment, IMO, sheds light on his frustration at stating what he feels are clearly true and obvious statements… and yet, they're not.

Efficiency can be increased while other parts of the body either maintain the same speed or even slow down a little bit. Golfers can have poorly sequenced kinematic sequences, and by changing the rates of the different segments, increase performance.

The swings on the left are not what I would call efficient or "synchronized." The swings on the right aren't there yet either, but they're an improvement, and relative to the arms… because the arms sped up themselves, the rest of the body has actually slowed down.

I'd say I disagree or something.
2 Each of them actually has a few "feelings" that should help them increase the speed at which the arms come down, but as many here know, my instruction is almost never just "increase the speed of your arms." Everyone is a feel player, after all.


If you think it's unfair of me to reply to @Righty to Lefty when he can't respond, I'll simply say this: I wanted to address the points he raised, and share what I think is a response that will make a lot of sense to a lot of people. That @Righty to Lefty can't respond doesn't mean that I have to hold myself to the same standard - I still think that by explaining my position I can still help other people. I think this post above should further the knowledge of those who read it, and perhaps help them with their swings. And, though my hopes are quite small at this point, I've not completely given up on the possibility that @Righty to Lefty can come to see the error in what he's argued here, and accept the facts that are facts, and let that change his opinion and understanding of the topic.

Besides, we can quote what now-dead people wrote in a book once, and discuss that, even though they cannot respond.

And… at the end of the day, this shit is just golf. We're not solving world hunger here.

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I saw a test done with a Trackman that had people sit in a chair and hit a driver then stand on two feet and hit a driver.  Standing on two feet only gave them a 12% increase in clubhead speed, so yes the arms (and hands) do contribute most to clubhead speed.  Those who don't believe this need to explain why you can stand flat footed and hit the ball nearly as far as a full pivot stroke.

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On 1/21/2019 at 10:28 PM, iacas said:

 

01.jpg

 

02.jpg

 

All four of these still frames display loss of lag tension where the golfer is positioned in relation to the ball incorrectly and the shaft has come into alignment with their lead forearm before impact and this is a no go for all golfers...period. The easiest way to correct this is to get the golfer to change where they are in relation to the ball....in other words...move the ball back in their stance and find the leverage first which will likely feel like they are hitting a straight push, and then orient that to the target and play golf. I found that finding leverage will clear up a lot of "issues" and then things can be fined tuned to try to find consistency.  I am surmising that telling the golfer to "speed up their arms" is an attempt to try and provide a feel that will prevent the loss of lag tension but if the golfer is in the wrong position in relation to the ball to naturally do maintain it, then their best efforts will still fail unless the golfer tries to hold on to the lag will will not improve things.  

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Once again, you fail to address the actual topic: that the majority of the speed in the golf swing comes from the arms.

You've also failed to address the many points made against you, or address your numerous incorrect statements.

The quick response to your last post is in the spoiler, because it's barely related to the topic (my original post is more so on topic than your response).

Spoiler
26 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

All four of these still frames display loss of lag tension where the golfer is positioned in relation to the ball incorrectly and the shaft has come into alignment with their lead forearm before impact and this is a no go for all golfers...period. The easiest way to correct this is to get the golfer to change where they are in relation to the ball....in other words...move the ball back in their stance and find the leverage first which will likely feel like they are hitting a straight push, and then orient that to the target and play golf.

That may be an "easy" fix but it's not the right one. It's a band-aid that will ultimately cause more problems than it fixes and hamper their further development. It's just a compensation.

Screen Shot 2019-01-27 at 8.53.21 AM.png

Those golfers are in no better position than the ones at their current impact. Their arms are still far, far too slow.

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Interesting. It seems my last post was the result of a misunderstanding. I completely agree with the point of this post, and think it is a major problem with my swing. We've all heard of people who are overly active with their body and get their arms "stuck behind them"! That describes me to a T!

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