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iacas

Speed from the Arms in the Golf Swing

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Very interesting results. Due to some medical issues, I have limited ability to apply the body turn and have become mostly an Arms swinger. My swing speed has been clocked at 78 - 89, so pretty similar to the lower end of your numbers.

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That's what Tony Luczak has been preaching- his "arms first" feeling as a motor control idea.  He says it will never happen in a real swing, but the intention is there just like throwing a ball.  Seems to make sense.  I've tried the OP's little experiment before and I always see more speed with the arms.  I typically do Superspeed swings with feet together and the flamingo drill to get my arms swooshing the club.  Much faster speeds than anything I can do with a "body" driven swing.  I probably don't isolate the swings perfectly, but my intention is to do so.

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Excellent posts and thread. Something I've been working on for years - my evolution from  arms driven to body driven, and now the hybrid swing (joking) pinning the lead arm to the shoulder and then swinging the arms as fast as possible creating separation and then releasing to the left (as a righty).

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Good post. 

Personally, when I'm swinging my best, the biggest difference I feel is that my arm speed feels faster and more in sync. 

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2 hours ago, ncates00 said:

That's what Tony Luczak has been preaching- his "arms first" feeling as a motor control idea.  He says it will never happen in a real swing, but the intention is there just like throwing a ball.  Seems to make sense.  I've tried the OP's little experiment before and I always see more speed with the arms.  I typically do Superspeed swings with feet together and the flamingo drill to get my arms swooshing the club.  Much faster speeds than anything I can do with a "body" driven swing.  I probably don't isolate the swings perfectly, but my intention is to do so.

This topic doesn't advocate anything like that. When throwing a ball, you still often move your lower body first, and then your torso, etc. The kinematic sequence is the same - from the ground on up (or out).

The point I'm making quickly here is that all parts of your body contribute. Some just contribute more than others.

12 hours ago, mvmac said:

Yes saying the arms don't add much to speed during the swing is completely false. It may be a feel that some need but the arms contribute a lot for speed and obviously controlling how the club moves.

I'm still tempted to say, as I mis-typed a few times in the other topic, that the arms are responsible for a majority of the clubhead's speed, or a more significant portion than anything else.

Thing is, as you can see in the video I filmed, that the swing isn't additive. You can't swing your arms like ropes and get "70 MPH" and then just move your arms and get "102 MPH" and conclude that doing both together is a swing speed of 172 MPH.

But… I've known plenty of good local golfers with high clubhead speeds - hell, two of the kids on my college team who played baseball meet this definition - of hitting the ball VERY far with HIGH swing speeds… and backswing pivots of < 75° (and both are too close to square at impact, with both their hips and torso/shoulders).

They do this with fast arms.

12 hours ago, mvmac said:

I like the point Shaun Webb brings up that from address to impact the lead arm is separating from the the chest. Can't do that if the arms were actually passive.

Heck no. If they were actually passive or "effortless" they would lag well behind the pivot. The entire time your torso was accelerating, they'd be lagging further and further behind, and that's the majority of the downswing.

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Just now, iacas said:

This topic doesn't advocate anything like that. When throwing a ball, you still often move your lower body first, and then your torso, etc. The kinematic sequence is the same - from the ground on up (or out).

I'm not advocating for Luczak's swing theory, as I have no stake in the matter, but he would agree.  Kinematics and motor control are two very different things- as I implied in my post.  You will always use your lower body first if you have any athleticism, but the intention/motor coordination of it is that you only intend on slinging your arm- like throwing a football.  I don't think about moving my legs a certain amount, hip drive, on and on.  I'm just focused on throwing the ball to my intended receiver.

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1 minute ago, ncates00 said:

I'm not advocating for Luczak's swing theory, as I have no stake in the matter, but he would agree.  Kinematics and motor control are two very different things- as I implied in my post.  You will always use your lower body first if you have any athleticism, but the intention/motor coordination of it is that you only intend on slinging your arm- like throwing a football.  I don't think about moving my legs a certain amount, hip drive, on and on.  I'm just focused on throwing the ball to my intended receiver.

I don't agree.

File that under "feel ain't real." Specific feelings work individually (or don't), but almost never work for even a tiny majority, let alone almost everyone.

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2 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't agree.

File that under "feel ain't real." Specific feelings work individually (or don't), but almost never work for even a tiny majority, let alone almost everyone.

Do you consciously think about all the body's movements when you throw a ball or make a golf swing in a second or less?  I doubt Tom Brady does or Tiger does.  You could make the argument that it has been years of proper training of the body movements independently and then linking them together.  I just don't see that happening in a good motion.  If the arms add the most speed and you intend on flinging those arms faster, I very much believe that would work.  The body would react to stabilize you to create the speed you're generating.

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7 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Do you consciously think about all the body's movements when you throw a ball or make a golf swing in a second or less?

Completely beside the point.

In teaching a lot of golfers, I've had to discuss the way the lower body works. Just telling everyone to "swing their arms" (or anything like that) doesn't work. The feeling (or "thought" may work for you), but it doesn't work for everyone.

Heck, even myself, when I am working on my golf swing for a long time (I'm working on an arms-related piece), even I can get a little too "static" with my lower body.

7 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

I doubt Tom Brady does or Tiger does.

Tiger has specifically had to work on the way his lower body works. Tom Brady, like most quarterbacks, most likely has had to work on his footwork, his lower body, how (and when) his hips are working… etc.

7 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

You could make the argument that it has been years of proper training of the body movements independently and then linking them together.  I just don't see that happening in a good motion.  If the arms add the most speed and you intend on flinging those arms faster, I very much believe that would work.  The body would react to stabilize you to create the speed you're generating.

Sounds fine in theory, but things don't really work that way. The body doesn't just "react" the right way all the time at all.

It's not proof but it is an example: how much did my lower body react in the first few swings I made? Not much at all.

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39 minutes ago, iacas said:

Sounds fine in theory, but things don't really work that way. The body doesn't just "react" the right way all the time at all.

This^^^.

This might be OT but I just wanted to chime in. After a tough season ending last year with a great mid-season I found after some camera work that I had completely lost both Keys 1 and 2 which are primarily 'body' keys. I had starting swaying and bobbing all over the place towards end of fall which were markedly better earlier in summer last year. 

I will never take my body reacting to dynamic motions as a granted aspect again. There is drift/creep going on all the time. 

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Arm swing?  I think I passed out for a moment.  But to be fair, maybe I'm misinterpreting the premise. Is this a discussion about how fast the arms can swing as a data point?   Or, for to help folks who have physical limitations?  If so, cool. If not, this method completely runs counter to not only the golf swing, but even something as simple as throwing a rock to skip across a pond.  

I can't think of anything that is thrown or swung at that doesn't rely upon some degree of stored energy created from body coil, release of stored energy by rotation, like turning in a barrel from the waist down, with the arms coming thru like a whip with no tension, and the wrist releasing naturally due to the weight of the object held.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Arm swing?  I think I passed out for a moment.  But to be fair, maybe I'm misinterpreting the premise. Is this a discussion about how fast the arms can swing as a data point?   Or, for to help folks who have physical limitations?

No. Not at all.

41 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

If so, cool. If not, this method completely runs counter to not only the golf swing, but even something as simple as throwing a rock to skip across a pond.

This is not a "method." Did you read the first post?

I'll give you some benefit of the doubt because you missed the originating discussion, but the topic and the video demonstrate that the arms are responsible for a great amount of clubhead speed, and that - unlike what some instructors teach - they're not just "passive" or "effortless."

The originating discussion is here:

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2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Arm swing?  I think I passed out for a moment.  But to be fair, maybe I'm misinterpreting the premise. Is this a discussion about how fast the arms can swing as a data point?   Or, for to help folks who have physical limitations?  If so, cool. If not, this method completely runs counter to not only the golf swing, but even something as simple as throwing a rock to skip across a pond.  

I can't think of anything that is thrown or swung at that doesn't rely upon some degree of stored energy created from body coil, release of stored energy by rotation, like turning in a barrel from the waist down, with the arms coming thru like a whip with no tension, and the wrist releasing naturally due to the weight of the object held.

 

 

Please read the OP. No one is suggesting this as a method. 

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