Traditional Lofts versus Modern Lofts

[TourSpoon]

You are correct. The lofts that I put as "traditional" are from the early 1990s. The 51-52 degree pw goes way back.

[DaveLeeNC]

I've seen some reference to it. So I will add a dimension. Does anyone have their lofts adjusted to better cover the spread? I notice that the clubs for low handicappers have more traditional lofts to start with.

FWIW, I play a set of Wishon 550C/550M irons which have pretty traditional lofts. I had my 9i bent from 44* to 45*, my AW bent from 52* to 50*, dropped the PW, and left the SW at 55* and LW at 60*. So I've got 5I loft gaps at the top end, 4* in the middle, and 3* on the low end.

dave

[TourSpoon]

Update...I bought new clubs, Titleist 735 cm and set them up with my specs that I have been playing forever:

48-44-40-36-32-28-24-21

Everything seems to be fine so far.

While doing some research for another post, I saw the Callaway specs for an early model X series that had only 2.5 degrees between the 5-4-3. I mean who is going to benefit from such a low change? I would think it would have to be someone with a really fast swingspeed. Any thoughts? I also noticed a lot of companies have also gone to 3 degrees from 6 to 5 iron as well.

[Shindig]

I also noticed a lot of companies have also gone to 3 degrees from 6 to 5 iron as well.

Yeah, my next set the 6 iron is 29 and the 5 is 26. I'm thinking of asking for the 5 to be bent one degree strong, then I'll get a 21 or 22 degree hybrid and call it the next club.

[TourSpoon]

Just to add to an old thread...distances for lofts/gaps that I have been playing for a few years...think I got a good thing going sticking to my traditional iron lofts (21-24-28-32-36-40-44-48).

D-250 (carry)
3W-235
2H-220 (soft flight)
3-212 (boring lower flight)
4-200
5-187
6-175
7-162
8-150
9-137
P-125
54-105
LW-85

[Robato]

I had a 4-PW plus gap wedge set, and decided to take the gap wedge out and adjust the P dub, a la the Big Easy. Mainly because I wanted to add another fairway wood. So I use a 54 degree sandy, then a PW adjusted to 48. 9i stays at 42. My distances are workin like a charm now.

[grandaddy510]

I've strongly been considering adjusting the lofts on a few of my clubs as well. I just switched to the AP1 and the stock is PW45 and GW50. My old set was PW47 and i was using 52 and 56 W. It was easy to take a little off the PW so i never bothered getting the gap correct. Since the AP1s came with the GW50 I am thinking of bending to GW49, then the vokeys 52>53, and 56>57. This would make an even 4* gap from 29-57.

And now after seeing some of this info, I am even considering bending the 4(23>22) and 5(26>25) as I play my longer iron gaps as (carry) 7(33)-145, 6(29)-155, 5(26)-163, 4(23)-171. It would make more sense especially with an easy 3H 19 at 185, cranked up 195 it will fill the gap better.

Now my question is I have already had these adjusted for lie angle. Are we suppose to adjust lofts at the same time as lie or can we still bend 1 degree loft after already bending 2 degree flat? I would not want to risk the integrity of the iron since the AP1 and Vokey are both casted.

Also what effect would changing the 56 to 57 have on the bounce? I am assuming for every degree weak would expose 1 more degree of bounce, please correct me if my math is wrong. Thanks

[TourSpoon]

Bending any Titleist iron that one degree of loft is not a problem. Your club guy can adjust without altering the lie. The weakening of the wedge only strengthens the bounce one degree for each degree weakened.

I have wondered why modern clubs space 3 degrees between the 4 and 5 (and sometimes the 6) as most ams probably would be better off with a little more spacing in the longer irons.

[Shindig]

Bending any Titleist iron that one degree of loft is not a problem. Your club guy can adjust without altering the lie. The weakening of the wedge only strengthens the bounce one degree for each degree weakened.

Would this affect the bounce on an iron too? I realize we so rarely use the bounce on an iron, but they do have that measurement.

[TourSpoon]

Would this affect the bounce on an iron too? I realize we so rarely use the bounce on an iron, but they do have that measurement.

Sure it affects it the same, but 1 degree of bounce is so miniscule that you would would never notice it. The bounce on all irons is a spec that most of the club companies publish.

[James_Black]

Would this affect the bounce on an iron too? I realize we so rarely use the bounce on an iron, but they do have that measurement.

If you de-loft it 1 degree you'll reduce the bounce by 1 degree and if you add 1 degree of loft you'll add 1 degree of bounce.

[WUTiger]

...

I have wondered about this myself. I seem to be getting yardage compression at the low end of irons, [possibly due to slip to only 3* between clubs.

Talked to a clubfitter and pro about a possible tweak: I may go with a "4.5 iron" at low end: Dump 5 iron, and bend 4i 1* weak, and trim 1/4 inch off shaft. I initially considered strengthening the 5i 2*, but would have ended up with zero-bounce club. This tweaking also would bend 6i 1* stronger, and give me 4* difference between clubs, 3i-PW. Distance gap between 3i and "4.5" and 6 would be longer than 10 yards, due to "4.5i" shaft trim.

[TourSpoon]

I feel you WUTiger...I wouldn't bother trimming the 1/4" off...what is that worth 3 feet?

[WUTiger]

I feel you WUTiger...I wouldn't bother trimming the 1/4" off...what is that worth 3 feet?

You're right, probably one or two yards.

Main reason for the trim: It will give me 4* loft difference AND 3/4" shaft length difference between 3i and 4.5i, and 4.5i and 6i. Remaining clubs the standard 1/2" shaft length difference. The 3/4" trim thing may be "science fair" excess, but I'm trying for even distance increases - about 12 yards at low end, and 10 yards 6i to PW.

[TourSpoon]

I am just resurrecting this bit to give an updated thought to something that has been festering with me for a while.  The idea of having a 3 degree gap between the 3-4-5-6-7 is just baffling to me considering that the average am doesn't generate enough club speed to see a real separation. Is the new mantra to make longer short irons with easier to get up long irons and compress these into a set that starts at 23 and ends at 45? The average am buys this set and if he is paying attention soon realizes that he only hits his 4 iron 7 yards longer than his 5 iron so he swaps in a hybrid. Brilliant.  Here are more thoughts from Gerald's thread that I borrowed to support this thread.

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

This 3* just baffles me.  If the pros are going 4 degrees and they are getting 2.5-3 yards on average per degree, then why are ams playing them at 3? The average ams only get 2-2.5 per degree and as you get into the lower irons they tend to bunch up and overlap between due to the lack of ball speed and trajectory.  I understand 3 between the 3 and 4 iron, because if you have the club head speed to actually hit a proper 3 iron then this spacing seems to work with the trajectories, but again the average am doesn't possess this.  I don't get it.

Originally Posted by Gerald

I personally thought that the pro's (not all) liked the 2 iron, so if they gap 4 degrees in 5i-4i and in 4i-3i ..... they will end up with a 3i that is actually a 2.5i

Quote:

Yes I see this actually all the time at our driving range, there is just no difference with most ams betweeb hitting a 5-4-3 iron distancewise, of course I am not talking about the really good ballstrikers, but the average ams hits a 3i about the same distance as a 5i but with a lower trajectory and most are slicing the 3i anyway.

If I am reading your comment closely, you would advise to have 4 degrees gaps in the long irons aswell ?

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

What I am saying that for my 105 mph swing speed, that I have set my clubs up from (3-pw) 22-25-28-31-35-39-43-47 to 21-24-28-32-36-40-44-48 (I just dropped the 3i for a 20* 3h and a 18* 2h). I felt like the 4-5-6 irons were too close together at 3* which is almost 10 yards, and my higher irons were more like 12-13 yards apart. I strengthened the 3 and 4, left the 5 the same, and weakened the rest of the set by a degree (this was a loft set-up that I have used for 20 years or so) to cover more ground.  I would rather see my longer irons spread out more, than only have a 10 yard difference. Any slight mishit and you are hitting the same club distance wise.

Now, the reason that traditional lofts usually go by 4s and then get lower down by the 3/4i to about 3, and then to a 2 iron by 2 degrees, is that the extra length starts creating more club head speed. If you are beast enough to handle a 2 then it should only be 2 degrees stronger than your 3i and they should be about 12-15 yards apart. I have noticed that most modern OEMs put this kind of spacing all the way up to 6 iron now with players clubs holding the line to either 4 or 5 iron (although you are very astute to notice that those with the highest swing speeds usually play with irons that go by 4s starting at 4i).

I realize that I am probably splitting hairs on this one, but I don't see the benefit of a 3 degree separation for the average am between a 6 and 7 iron. My club guy told me that the OEMs do it to sell clubs because they have to offer lofts on the low end that people can still get into the air and that is why you see sets start at 23* and end at 46*.  They are squeezing both ends to offer short irons that are longer and long irons that you can get up in the air. Most ams are not going to pay attention to the fact that their 4 iron only gives them 7 more yards than their 5 iron. If they do then they have still bought the 4i as part of the set and then swap it with a 4h.

[tweaky]

Dear Rip van Tour Spoon-

THANK YOU for re-invigorating this thread!!!!!

i think it should be a sticky!  there is sooo much excellent info here that EVERY golfer should be aware of!  every post has a valid point and i don't see ANY mis-information.

there was a study done back in the '70s concerning the relationship of club length, loft, and ball speed.  the end result was that CLUB LENGTH had the LEAST effect on DISTANCE.  Ball speed and launch angle were the KEY ingredients.  the importance of club length in a proper fitting is definitely there but having a difference of 1/2" length between each club is a MA$$-MARKETING TOOL and has no bearing in a PROPER FITTING.  if every iron head weighed the same and the only difference was 4* of loft then distance differences would come out between the desired 10-15 yards between clubs.  the reason for clubs being what they are today has to do with MA$$ MARKETING.

What we golfers NEED is MASS EDUCATION!

[TourSpoon]

Tweaky...great name for a clubmaker! I have to give you props just for reading my OCD rants. Thanks!

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Just to add to an old thread...distances for lofts/gaps that I have been playing for a few years...think I got a good thing going sticking to my traditional iron lofts (21-24-28-32-36-40-44-48).

D-250 (carry)

3W-235

2H-220 (soft flight)

3-212 (boring lower flight)

4-200

5-187

6-175

7-162

8-150

9-137

P-125

54-105

LW-85

I replaced that 3 iron with a 3 hybrid with @ 210 carry distance. It is more versatile and reliable and can be knocked down quite effectively.