New Old clubs

[amished]

Didn't really have anybody else to share this with, but I'm in the position to try out and buy a set of good condition Mizuno MP-33s.  I would consider this my first "real" set as the first set of irons I bought were old CB Forged clubs, then I upgraded to a knock off CB GI irons (from Gigagolf).  I like the clubs I have now, but I've always aspired to having a "good" set of irons, preferably blades.  I generally consider myself a good iron player, my most consistent miss is hitting it fat/weight not forward enough at impact.

What have your experiences been like going to a new set of "older" clubs been, or moving from a GI iron to a more players iron? 

Is it as simple as "if I hit the irons well and the price is right, go for it"?

[Vinny Cap]

@amished  I say go for it!  I purchased a set of MP 67's that are similar and they were re-tumbled with a black oxide finish and had new grips and new shafts.  LOVE em!

MP 33's are an iconic set from the Mizuno line.  If they are in good shape, you can hit them good and get them for a good price it is a no brainier in my book.

Older clubs are still good unless you are looking for SGI irons.  The lofts might be off from what you are playing but a lil time at the range and you can dial in your distance.  Many older clubs are not off that far so the transition might be easier than one would think.

A good ball striker can always appreciate a nice set of blades.

Post some pics when you get them... I have a feeling from your post that you will end up buying them.  Good Luck!

Edited May 14, 2018 by Vinny Cap

[billchao]

Vintage blades are more of a novelty item to me than something I'd seriously consider playing everyday. I own a set of vintage Ben Hogans and I play maybe once a year with them for fun. They're not a set of clubs I'll be able to consistently play good golf with and they're a bit hard to gap in my bag with modern clubs.

I still like them though and I don't regret buying them at all.

[Vinny Cap]

The lofts are pretty use-able, not that bad for an older set of clubs.

Compare them to TM's new M4's and you can see drastic loft changes.

Almost 2 clubs off and now the need for a Gap, Approach and Tweener wedge!

[amished]

@Vinny Cap That's really cool.  Crazy to think that people are hitting their "5 iron" 200 (or whatever yards) like it's amazing but really they're just hitting a reflavored 3 iron...  Also makes me feel better when I'm hitting a 6 iron into a green that they're hitting an 8 iron into.

Oddly enough, I don't know if my knockoff irons were just set to traditional lofts or what, but my few practice rounds and shots are all pretty similar distances with slightly less effort with the MP-33s.  I was able to "step on one" the other day where I was behind a tree a ways so I needed to get up but needed more distance than normal and I was able to squeeze out that extra 10 yards with a slight flier of a lie.  I think I'm going to bite the bullet, but we'll see how I feel about blades at the end of the week.  They still hit amazingly well and do what I expect them to do....  My bad shots are bad enough that blades wouldn't help, so why not jump feet first?

[Vinny Cap]

@amished  The loft info can be eye opening!  I like your term " reflavored 3 iron " I might start using that if ya don't mind.

I started playing with Ping Eye 2's so my lofts were off compared to what my buddies were hitting.  I got use to my lofts and got my distances dialed in at the range so I knew what to hit and when.  I did mess people up when they would ask what I hit when they had newer clubs as they would fly it way over the green if they used the same club as me.

As for my blades, I am not a pro and do not have perfect ball striking but I can play them pretty good as I have spent time with them on the range getting them dialed in and grooving my swing.  I hit beautiful shots with them but also duff a few here and there.  The mishits are shorter but hey, I play what I am dealt with.  When I do hit one good or great, they really go a mile.

Sounds like you like them so go for it.  No such thing as "too many clubs"! 

[dbuck]

If you square the face at impact, then direction should be alright.

What you will notice most with blades is a fall off in distance from less than perfect strikes, fairly dramatic. The area on the face of something like the MP33 where you can hit and not lose any distance is about the size of a dime. If your circle is a half dollar, you will likely lose a club in distance. But a strike on the "sweet spot" of a forged blade is nirvana.

I went for a few years recently playing mostly "blades and lumber"-forged blades and wooden headed woods. Not that I am that good, but just for enjoyment and nostalgia.

Edited May 15, 2018 by dbuck

[billchao]

6 hours ago, Vinny Cap said:

The lofts are pretty use-able, not that bad for an older set of clubs.

Compare them to TM's new M4's and you can see drastic loft changes.

Almost 2 clubs off and now the need for a Gap, Approach and Tweener wedge!

I'm still amazed people think loft is the only determining factor in iron distance.

You're not even comparing apples to apples. The MP-33 is a player's blade. The M4 is a GI cavity back.

[Vinny Cap]

16 minutes ago, billchao said:

I'm still amazed people think loft is the only determining factor in iron distance.

You're not even comparing apples to apples. The MP-33 is a player's blade. The M4 is a GI cavity back.

Did you read the OP?

Quote: "then I upgraded to a knock off CB GI irons"

So, he is comparing GI to blades!

[Groucho Valentine]

1 hour ago, dbuck said:

If you square the face at impact, then direction should be alright.

What you will notice most with blades is a fall off in distance from less than perfect strikes, fairly dramatic. The area on the face of something like the MP33 where you can hit and not lose any distance is about the size of a dime. If your circle is a half dollar, you will likely lose a club in distance. But a strike on the "sweet spot" of a forged blade is nirvana.

I went for a few years recently playing mostly "blades and lumber"-forged blades and wooden headed woods. Not that I am that good, but just for enjoyment and nostalgia.

On older blades, yeah. But I've found with new models of blade irons off center strikes aren't penalized as much as say like on like an old McGregor blade or something. All things considered, i actually hit a blade iron a little further than a cavity off a clean lie. But the major difference is between blade and cavity back for me (and why i dont use blades) is when you get some grass behind the ball. The ball flight comes way down unless i really flush it. I don't have the swing speed to get those things in the air consistently from crappy lies. Get me in the rough with a blade 5 or 6 iron and lord have mercy the groundhogs better run for their lives. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Groucho Valentine

[billchao]

16 minutes ago, Vinny Cap said:

Did you read the OP?

Quote: "then I upgraded to a knock off CB GI irons"

So, he is comparing GI to blades!

Yea, I should have quoted this post, too, but my point stands.

7 hours ago, amished said:

@Vinny Cap That's really cool.  Crazy to think that people are hitting their "5 iron" 200 (or whatever yards) like it's amazing but really they're just hitting a reflavored 3 iron...  Also makes me feel better when I'm hitting a 6 iron into a green that they're hitting an 8 iron into.

A modern GI has to have stronger lofts or they will launch the ball too high. Where the extra distance comes partly from increased ball speeds on off-centered hits (forgiveness) and the lower placement of CoG in these irons reduces spin. Ever heard of "high launch, low spin?" These irons are designed with that in mind.

Plus, look at it this way: the average golfer can't hit a classic 3I. If a modern 5I was just a "reflavored" 3I, they wouldn't be able to hit the 5I in their modern set. The modern GI 5I goes as far as a classic 3I and is as easy (or hard) to hit as a classic 5I (launch angle and apex are similar, too). Most golfers still can't hit a modern 3I. That's why they bag hybrids.

[Vinny Cap]

15 hours ago, billchao said:

Yea, I should have quoted this post, too, but my point stands.

A modern GI has to have stronger lofts or they will launch the ball too high. Where the extra distance comes partly from increased ball speeds on off-centered hits (forgiveness) and the lower placement of CoG in these irons reduces spin. Ever heard of "high launch, low spin?" These irons are designed with that in mind.

Plus, look at it this way: the average golfer can't hit a classic 3I. If a modern 5I was just a "reflavored" 3I, they wouldn't be able to hit the 5I in their modern set. The modern GI 5I goes as far as a classic 3I and is as easy (or hard) to hit as a classic 5I (launch angle and apex are similar, too). Most golfers still can't hit a modern 3I. That's why they bag hybrids.

I get what you are saying Bill but most people wont go into all that high tech data... CoG, MOI, launch angles, spin, etc...

I am an average golfer and I love to hit my 3i, heck I sometimes bag a 2i on a couple courses I play as the D is too much on some holes.  Hate hybrids and I play some old school clubs sometimes.

[amished]

Love the discussion!  As always, there's something more about golf that I don't understand...

League night was last night for me, and my adventures with the MP-33s are continuing.  I absolutely love the clubs and I hit them well when I decide to get my weight forward properly..  Either way, I'm getting much easier height out of the Mizunos than my old GI CB irons which is something that I'm not quite understanding based on the idea that GI CBs are made for high launch/low spin with their altered lofts and everything else.

Also, if we go back to the 5 iron is a 3 iron thing, I get that there's added help for off center hits, but does that affect sweet spot hits too?

[billchao]

2 hours ago, Vinny Cap said:

I get what you are saying Bill but most people wont go into all that high tech data... CoG, MOI, launch angles, spin, etc...

Nothing wrong with that, but this doesn't have much to do with what I wrote.

When people say new irons only go longer because OEMs strengthened lofts, they're wrong.

2 hours ago, amished said:

Either way, I'm getting much easier height out of the Mizunos than my old GI CB irons which is something that I'm not quite understanding based on the idea that GI CBs are made for high launch/low spin with their altered lofts and everything else.

Are the shafts different? Swingweight? Static weight? All of these things can affect how you hit a club. That's why it's important to demo and get fit. General rules don't always apply the same way to everyone.

2 hours ago, amished said:

Also, if we go back to the 5 iron is a 3 iron thing, I get that there's added help for off center hits, but does that affect sweet spot hits too?

Yes, but not the way you'd think. Musclebacks tend to be more consistent out of the sweetspot.

That doesn't really have anything to do with 5I!=3I though. Cavity back clubs are more forgiving but the tradeoff is they aren't as consistently accurate off the sweetspot.

Today's iron designs blend different elements together anyway and there are very few true musclebacks being made. Even on player's irons, most manufacturers make progressive designs where the longer clubs incorporate more GI elements and the shorter ones are MB.

[amished]

Lots of things to check.  Swing weight I believe is the same between the two.  I do think that the MP-33s are slightly heavier actual weight, but not by much.

But now you have me curious, @billchao, what constitutes a "true" muscleback?  I mean, no matter what I would say that if you can keep the consistency, you're going to make everything else as forgiving as possible as a club manufacturer so why would you ever not go with a muscleback as a pro who can hit the sweet spot 99 times out of 100?  Or, alternatively, why would you trade away the consistent accuracy on the sweetspot in a CB from a professional perspective?

[billchao]

2 hours ago, amished said:

But now you have me curious, @billchao, what constitutes a "true" muscleback?

A single piece of steel ground into an iron head, just what you think of when you think of a blade. For example, if you look at Titleist's 718 lineup, only the MB is a true muscleback. The T-MB looks like a muscleback, but is really a modern player's iron - a hollow bodied multi-material construction.

The multi-material construction is where all the technology in an iron is. It allows engineers to design clubs in a way that can't be matched by traditional methods.

2 hours ago, amished said:

I mean, no matter what I would say that if you can keep the consistency, you're going to make everything else as forgiving as possible as a club manufacturer so why would you ever not go with a muscleback as a pro who can hit the sweet spot 99 times out of 100?  Or, alternatively, why would you trade away the consistent accuracy on the sweetspot in a CB from a professional perspective?

Even the pros miss. You'll find much more variety in the bags of tour players today than 20, even 10 years ago. A lot of players nowadays don't bag a complete set of blades. They have hybrids, driving irons, and mixed sets of clubs where the longer clubs aren't from the same set as their scoring clubs. When one stroke could potentially cost tens of thousands of dollars, you don't want to be 10 yards short of the green just because you missed it a little towards the toe or something.

The other thing is, they're human. A machine can hit a blade to an 8' diameter or something ridiculous like that. No human can match that. There are so many variables involved in a single golf shot anyway, who can say what exactly caused a player to hit a club +/- 5 yards in either direction? Was it the recoil on the clubface of a hollow-bodied iron, or just the natural variation a person produces from one shot to another? 

[dbuck]

On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 3:08 PM, Groucho Valentine said:

On older blades, yeah. But I've found with new models of blade irons off center strikes aren't penalized as much as say like on like an old McGregor blade or something. All things considered, i actually hit a blade iron a little further than a cavity off a clean lie. But the major difference is between blade and cavity back for me (and why i dont use blades) is when you get some grass behind the ball. The ball flight comes way down unless i really flush it. I don't have the swing speed to get those things in the air consistently from crappy lies. Get me in the rough with a blade 5 or 6 iron and lord have mercy the groundhogs better run for their lives. 

Well you are a +1!

Your "misses" are gonna be a little different from us mere mortals. LOL

To be honest, I haven't hit a Mizzie blade since the MP14, but I don't think the MP 33 would be that much different, as opposed to some of the forged Mizzies that have a bit of cut cavity.

Edited May 16, 2018 by dbuck

[amished]

Thank you all for the information, input, and advice!  I will be going with these clubs as apparently I have a decent swing speed and/or my rough isn't very penal... I hit a 4 iron out of it last night with little problem, but the 3 iron is something that's probably only going to be for teeshots/fairways (probably be my money spender next year, getting fit and finding a replacement..  Probably be a 5 wood or something..)

I feel like I'm right at the same skill level with maybe a touch more concentration as I was at the end of last year when I had a couple 79/80 rounds on my local easy par 70 muni.  A little tuning up of my short game, and more comfort with partial shots with the new irons and I hope to dip into the single digit handicaps!  I'll post pictures soon, they're in my bag strapped to my cart at the golf course at the moment...