2018 U.S. Open at Shinnecock Hills

[Shindig]

Huh, Justin Rose only lost 1.4 on approach shots today.  I figured it'd have been a lot more.

DJ lost 3.6 putting... as I think I noticed during the round.

Berger gained 6.8 in putting!!  Can we get a listing of what he had for each putt?

Oh and Phil's SGP on hole 13 was -5.1 according to Broadie. 

[Chris223]

3 hours ago, JSGolf said:

Berger sucks....I don't see him winning. Gawd the leaderboard sucks.....

Please go away

[BallStriker]

What a complete debacle.....people talking about Mickelson's "legacy" is a joke....and insulting to those who have a clue

Mike Davis and the USGA should be completely embarrassed....again...and how many times is that now???

unreal........................................

 

[Hardspoon]

1 hour ago, Shindig said:

Berger gained 6.8 in putting!!  Can we get a listing of what he had for each putt?

Part of the problem looking at strokes gained is that it compares to golfers for the full day, not just in your "time slot".  The course played MUCH harder later in the day.  So, if putting gets harder as the day goes on, the earlier golfers will "gain" strokes.

I have mixed feelings about how the USGA goes about making these courses tough.

I like the thick rough, as long as the fairway width is reasonable (which I think it is).  But the green speeds...I'm ambivalent.  It's cool that the range of outcomes is so much wider on pitch shots and short game shots around the green, because the margins are so thin.  It's cool overall that four-putts are on the table, and that a two-putt from 25' is not routine.

But...the method to doing so (jacking up green speed so much) feels cheap to me.  I know that sounds silly, but it does affect how I feel watching it.

My biggest concern is if it creates unfair and drastic changes throughout the day for different groups, which it seems like it did today.

All that said - man, it's fun to watch.

[ChrisP]

6 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

Part of the problem looking at strokes gained is that it compares to golfers for the full day, not just in your "time slot".  The course played MUCH harder later in the day.  So, if putting gets harder as the day goes on, the earlier golfers will "gain" strokes.

This is why I really don’t want to see Berger or Finau win. I think it would taint today even more. They would have won getting that major  advantage of getting the easier conditions compared to the afternoon groups who played it when it was unplayable. If Berger or Finau played in the afternoon they would be back in Rickie Fowler’s neighborhood with their score. Koepka kinda jabbed Berger a bit when Berger was bragging about the course being tough for him and that he just made the putts. Koepka basically said “Let’s see him make those putts late in the day.”

Edited June 17, 2018 by ChrisP

[Vinsk]

3 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

This is why I really don’t want to see Berger or Finau win. I think it would taint today even more. They would have won getting that major  advantage of getting the easier conditions compared to the afternoon groups who played it when it was unplayable. If Berger or Finau played in the afternoon they would be back in Rickie Fowler’s neighborhood with their score. Koepka kinda jabbed Berger a bit when Berger was bragging about the course being tough for him and that he just made the putts. Koepka basically said “Let’s see him make those putts late in the day.”

Well maybe if today was the final round I could see your point. Berger and Finau are tied for the lead. They still have to play another round and if one of them wins (playing the same conditions as the other leaders) then so be it right?

[Hardspoon]

9 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

This is why I really don’t want to see Berger or Finau win. I think it would taint today even more. They would have won getting that major  advantage of getting the easier conditions compared to the afternoon groups who played it when it was unplayable.

Hmm.  I guess I wouldn't go that far ("taint" the win)...that stuff does happen all the time, with rain or wind, and it's just part of the game...but, yeah, I'm with you.  It's shitty when it's an avoidable situation created mostly by the desire for more difficulty.

There are a lot of different ways that courses/holes can be difficult: Augusta due to its tricky, undulating greens; St. Andrews because of its pot bunkers and fairway contours; the 17th at TPC Sawgrass because of all that damn water...etc.  Simply jacking green speeds way up and placing pins on the edge of slopes seems like the "cheapest" way to achieve difficulty, to me.

But, again, damned if it isn't fun to watch, mostly because of the potential for widely varied results.

All I kept thinking of:

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Hardspoon

[ChrisP]

1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

Well maybe if today was the final round I could see your point. Berger and Finau are tied for the lead. They still have to play another round and if one of them wins (playing the same conditions as the other leaders) then so be it right?

We’ll see what the conditions are like tomorrow for all the guys. I have a feeling the USGA is going to soak this course like crazy tonight and it’ll be super soft in the morning. Although with the humidity as low as it is there and breezes still up into the morning and a warm, sunny and extremely dry day tomorrow, I don’t know if they can keep this course saturated. This is the same conditions they got in ‘04 when the course baked out.

[Hardspoon]

7 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

We’ll see what the conditions are like tomorrow for all the guys. I have a feeling the USGA is going to soak this course like crazy tonight and it’ll be super soft in the morning. 

Can you imagine if they do that, and somebody in the early groups pulls a Berger and ends up winning by posting a score before the course bakes and the carnage hits?

Of course, it'd be funny if it was Scott Piercy.

Funny random note...I'm reading some articles about the Open, and came across this gem (written after Friday's round):

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/us-open-2018-shinnecock-is-revealing-an-embarrassing-truth-about-some-of-golfs-biggest-names

Quote

Bubba Watson missed the cut by a mile, while Tony Finau, who continues to be circled as a breakout star, is out of contention. 

Oops.

[phillyk]

Just now, Hardspoon said:

Can you imagine if they do that, and somebody in the early groups pulls a Berger and ends up winning by posting a score before the course bakes and the carnage hits?

Of course, it'd be funny if it was Scott Piercy.

Exactly what I was thinking. This morning, greens were still soft-ish and not bad. But as day wore on, speed picked up as it got baked in wind and sun. Even if you try to make it softer over night, the morning guys tomorrow have an advantage on greens even if they are 10 strokes out of it. 

I’m sure the USGA planned on greens drying up over the course of the day. I mean, over the years of it happening often enough and our tech for determining how much water is in soil and other things, they had to have known. Maybe pin locations were a little mean, but play the course smart and you should do well. Er’ on side of being conservative over putts near those edges. 

[CCC]

This week proves again, that the USGA can f**k up an anvil - 2 out of three times. They came in and pissed on another legendary GC.

The condition of this course was not fair to the afternoon groups. They should all be playing the same course am and pm. I know there is always a difference, but it should never be this drastic. I like seeing the pros suffer, but this was hard to watch w/o feeling bad for them.

The USGA did not protect the field.

And Mickelson should have been DQ'd for hitting his ball in motion. This was hard to see, too. So sad.

A lot of things to talk about in this US OPEN '18.

IMHO

I'm REALLY looking forward to tomorrow!!!!!

 

 

 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, CCC said:

They should all be playing the same course am and pm. I know there is always a difference, but it should never be this drastic.

I think this line of reasoning is bogus.

They did play the same golf course.

It would have been just as unfair if the USGA held everyone for twenty minutes at some point in the afternoon so the could douse the course in water.

Just as it was unfortunate that the British Open was played in such drastic, horrible conditions in 2002 or whenever it was… http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/third-round-2002-british-open-was-worst-major-weather-ever.

The difference in weather was more drastic than today.

It's a game played outside. They set the course up, then that's how it is for the day. Sometimes you get better weather in the afternoon, sometimes worse.

[CCC]

Have you ever seen players coming from so far behind - ending up playing in the last groups? In a US OPEN?

This debacle was less about the weather than the short sight of the USGA  to handle the weather.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/golf/usga-apologizes-for-unfair-course-in-3rd-round-of-us-open/2018/06/16/e7170df4-71cb-11e8-b4d8-eaf78d4c544c_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c12d2b50f931

 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, CCC said:

Have you ever seen players coming from so far behind - ending up playing in the last groups? In a US OPEN?

Arnold Palmer overcame a seven-shot deficit in the final round of the U.S. Open to win at Cherry Hills, did he not?

[CCC]

Yes he did.
Was this because he played in better or worse drastic course conditions than the other groups - that favored his tee time? 

He won, because he beat everyone. Fair and square.

I don't remember anyone talking about the condition of the course (thru the day) after his victory.

Apples to Oranges comparison.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, CCC said:

Apples to Oranges comparison.

I don't agree.

And that's beside the point. You completely ignored my first post. It's a game played outside. They set the course up, and then the day's play occurs. If the winds had died down and a light rain had come, the afternoon players would have gotten a good break.

It didn't. They got a bit of a bad break. Like the players in the 2002 British Open.

It happens. It's a game we play outside.

They played "the same golf course," as far as what the USGA could do.

[CCC]

Yes, the USGA got a bit of a bad break. Again....

Berger and Finau were tied at 45th place. And then the greens baked....

Can't wait for tomorrow. Game on!!

[Shorty]

44 minutes ago, CCC said:

Have you ever seen players coming from so far behind - ending up playing in the last groups? In a US OPEN?

This debacle was less about the weather than

Remember that Berger, Koepka and Finau had rounds of 76, 75 and 75 in their first rounds. You can't say that they were the beneficiaries of great weather in those rounds. It's a bit unfair to somehow disparage their ability to buckle down and grind in rounds 2 and 3. They each have a round of 66 but their other 6 rounds are over par. It's pretty unfair to label the (as yet known) result a debacle unless anyone other than DJ wins. He's the one with the 10 shot differential between rounds 2 and 3. Most of the others in the top 10 have been reasonably consistent. Who is shedding tears for Henley, Hoffman or Howell?

Edited June 17, 2018 by Shorty