Shot Clock on the PGA Tour

[fishgolf]

So the European Tour is using a shot clock at this weeks event.  It will be interesting to see how the players like or dislike this system and whether this is something the other tours consider adopting - not The Champions Tour for obvious reasons however.    I watch a lot of men's and women's events and really don't see or hear about groups being "placed on the clock" that often.  How prevalent an issue is this on the various tours?  How many times does this involve a ruling and how is this factored into the decision about putting a group on notice?  Personally, I'm not thinking it's needed.  What are your thoughts?

http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2018/tournamentid=2018048/news/newsid=335092.html

Edited June 7, 2018 by fishgolf
forgot link

[iacas]

I'm hopeful* that with the 2019 Rules of Golf, which specify a 40-second "recommended" limit and allow Committees to institute pace-of-play policies as part of the Rules for the event, that something will be done.

As I read earlier today:

• 70% of European Tour players felt that there was a pace-of-play problem. Maybe the PGA Tour will realize it at some point, too.
• Their scoring average was consistent with what they would expect on that course, from something I read that I can't find right now. So they played just fine, despite having to play faster.

* No I'm not. Not at all. The PGA Tour has had a bajillion chances to do something about pace of play and hasn't done anything at all.

[HJJ003]

I think a shot clock of some sort is needed. The thing is what starts the clock? If I am the second player in the group to hit does my clock the second player number one makes contact or the shot rolls out? 

I like the idea of time outs as well, and could be an important role of a caddie knowing how many have been used....like an assistant coach in basketball or something lol. 

[Patch]

If a shot clock would make the networks show more golf, and less talk, I like to see the shot clock used. 

Do I think a shot clock will work? Not unless there are penalties for violations. My guess is the players will complain enough, that the idea will die on the vine. 

These days all my televised pga golf is done on You Tube. In 9+/- minutes, I can watch a variety of players play their rounds. Nothing but golf shots. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Patch

[Missouri Swede]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I'm hopeful* that with the 2019 Rules of Golf, which specify a 40-second "recommended" limit and allow Committees to institute pace-of-play policies as part of the Rules for the event, that something will be done.

The current rules already do this (the part I highlighted above), correct?

Quote

Appendix I - Local Rules; Conditions of the Competition 

Part A

Local Rules

6-7. Undue Delay; Slow Play 

The player must play without undue delay and in accordance with any pace of play guidelines that the Committee may establish. Between completion of a hole and playing from the next teeing ground, the player must not unduly delay play. 

Penalty for Breach of Rule 6-7: 

Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

Bogey and par competitions - See Note 2 to Rule 32-1a.

Stableford competitions - See Note 2 to Rule 32-1b.

For subsequent offense - Disqualification.

Note 1: If the player unduly delays play between holes, he is delaying the play of the next hole and, except for bogey, par and Stableford competitions (see Rule 32), the penalty applies to that hole. 

Note 2: For the purpose of preventing slow play, the Committee may, in the conditions of a competition (Rule 33-1), establish pace of play guidelines including maximum periods of time allowed to complete a stipulated round, a hole or a stroke. 

In match play, the Committee may, in such a condition, modify the penalty for a breach of this Rule as follows: 

First offense - Loss of hole; 

Second offense - Loss of hole; 

For subsequent offense - Disqualification.

In stroke play, the Committee may, in such a condition, modify the penalty for a breach of this Rule as follows: 

First offense - One stroke;

The rules are already there, waiting to be used.  But they aren't.  So, this:

1 hour ago, iacas said:

* No I'm not. Not at all. The PGA Tour has had a bajillion chances to do something about pace of play and hasn't done anything at all.

It seems the European Tour is the only place there's action taken.  I still recall Spieth being miffed about being put on the clock at a European event a couple of years ago (yes, also at the Masters, but were they really going to penalize him? Doubt it.) 

Hopefully the shotclock will show people how much time 40 seconds really is. But more probably, those who want the status quo will ignore that it's even being tried.

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

The current rules already do this (the part I highlighted above), correct?

The rules are already there, waiting to be used.  But they aren't.  So, this:

They've pushed it more in 2019 to say things like "Committee Pace of Play Policy. To encourage and enforce prompt play, the Committee should adopt a Local Rule setting a Pace of Play Policy."

The current rules say they "may" do something.

They're pushing it a bit more in 2019.

[Shorty]

26 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

 I still recall Spieth being miffed about being put on the clock at a European event a couple of years ago (yes, also at the Masters, but were they really going to penalize him? Doubt it.) 

Hopefully the shotclock will show people how much time 40 seconds really is. But more probably, those who want the status quo will ignore that it's even being tried.

Don't be so sure....this from a couple of years ago:

AUGUSTA, Ga. — Guan Tianlang, the 14-year old phenom from China who had become the biggest story at the Masters after his 73 on Thursday, was a few minutes away from completing another solid round.

He had hit a good shot up the hill onto the 17th green, about 15 feet left of the hole for a birdie that would have put him in good position to qualify for the weekend.

As Guan approached the green, however, he was stopped by John Paramor, a rules official from the European Tour. An animated conversation ensued, with Paramor using several hand gestures to make his point. By the time Guan arrived at the green to mark his ball, he learned he had been assessed a one-stroke penalty for slow play.

 

[Missouri Swede]

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

They've pushed it more in 2019 to say things like "Committee Pace of Play Policy. To encourage and enforce prompt play, the Committee shall adopt a Local Rule setting a Pace of Play Policy."

Fixed that for them. (Sorry, couldn't find the strikethrough to do it properly.)

5 minutes ago, Shorty said:

Don't be so sure....this from a couple of years ago:

AUGUSTA, Ga. — Guan Tianlang, the 14-year old phenom from China who had become the biggest story at the Masters after his 73 on Thursday, was a few minutes away from completing another solid round.

He had hit a good shot up the hill onto the 17th green, about 15 feet left of the hole for a birdie that would have put him in good position to qualify for the weekend.

As Guan approached the green, however, he was stopped by John Paramor, a rules official from the European Tour. An animated conversation ensued, with Paramor using several hand gestures to make his point. By the time Guan arrived at the green to mark his ball, he learned he had been assessed a one-stroke penalty for slow play.

 

Yeah, I remember that.  But would they actually do that to Spieth as well? 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Missouri Swede

[Shorty]

32 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Fixed that for them. (Sorry, couldn't find the strikethrough to do it properly.)

Yeah, I remember that.  But would they actually do that to Spieth as well? 

If they did it to a 14 year old I am sure they would.

[Hardspoon]

7 minutes ago, Shorty said:

If they did it to a 14 year old I am sure they would.

No way...that's exactly the problem.  They'll enforce these things against lesser-known players, but they are much less likely to assess penalties against the big names.

1 hour ago, HJJ003 said:

The thing is what starts the clock? If I am the second player in the group to hit does my clock the second player number one makes contact or the shot rolls out? 

I had the same question, and couldn't find a definitive answer.  It looks like it's up to the discretion of the officials manning the clock.

From the small amount of the tournament I watched today, it seemed like they were starting the clock a little after the players got to their ball...so, not right away, but not at address, either.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Hardspoon

[ghalfaire]

11 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

It seems the European Tour is the only place there's action taken.  I still recall Spieth being miffed about being put on the clock at a European event a couple of years ago (yes, also at the Masters, but were they really going to penalize him? Doubt it.) 

The LPGA has certainly penalized players for slow play on more than one occasion. 

I don't know how I feel about the clock.  These guys are good enough that figuring out a shot from the middle of fairway shouldn't take even 40 seconds.  Having said that a shot from a bad place with a bad lie might that some time to evaluate the options. But then maybe that just is part of the penalty of being in a bad place to start with.  

[krupa]

I voted yes but I don't have any idea how it should/could be implemented.  

[Shindig]

Watching the event with the shot clock is interesting.  Not sure how I feel about it, just acknowledging its presence.  Obviously I'd like quicker play.  Announcer said no penalties for pace yesterday or the morning batch and scores are in line with what they'd expect.

[Groucho Valentine]

Though I'm somewhat in favor of giving players a certain amount of time of playing a found ball, I voted no simply because a shot clock in a golf tournament is impractical and pretty much unenforceable. And after once instance of a Jordan Speith or Tiger Woods or other bold faced name getting hit with a slow play penalty - the policy is finished. Lets be honest. 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Though I'm somewhat in favor of giving players a certain amount of time of playing a found ball, I voted no simply because a shot clock in a golf tournament is impractical and pretty much unenforceable. And after once instance of a Jordan Speith or Tiger Woods or other bold faced name getting hit with a slow play penalty - the policy is finished. Lets be honest. 

I believe the existing rules should be enforced consistently, for all players, and I'm not sure that it is.  I'd favor a shot clock, visible to everyone, so that it DOES get enforced.  And really, once a star gets hit with a penalty, every single player will find a way to avoid future penalties.  They can afford to pay undisclosed fines under the current system, they just don't care, but when you start adding strokes they'll actually pay attention.  And if a small number of popular players simply can't play well enough at the right pace, they'll be replaced by other talented players who CAN.

[Buckeyebowman]

22 hours ago, Shorty said:

Don't be so sure....this from a couple of years ago:

AUGUSTA, Ga. — Guan Tianlang, the 14-year old phenom from China who had become the biggest story at the Masters after his 73 on Thursday, was a few minutes away from completing another solid round.

He had hit a good shot up the hill onto the 17th green, about 15 feet left of the hole for a birdie that would have put him in good position to qualify for the weekend.

As Guan approached the green, however, he was stopped by John Paramor, a rules official from the European Tour. An animated conversation ensued, with Paramor using several hand gestures to make his point. By the time Guan arrived at the green to mark his ball, he learned he had been assessed a one-stroke penalty for slow play.

 

I'm a bit confused here, and feel like something has been left out. Was the player informed that he was in danger of being put on the clock? Was the player informed that he was, indeed, being put on the clock? Or, was the player simply informed that he was assessed a penalty because of being put on the clock?

If those first 2 steps didn't happen, I find this very unfair! I kind of doubt that it happened that way!

[Piz]

There is a limit on how much time a player may spend looking for a golf ball.  There ought to be a limit on the time a player may spend looking at a golf ball.

[iacas]

But after just one round of the Austrian Open/aka Shot Clock Masters, the results speak volumes: as much as 55 minutes faster than the typical European Tour three-ball, rounds 19 minutes faster than the allotted time and no apparent decline in the quality of play.