2018 World Cup

[saevel25]

8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

That’s not the rule. ‘Hand ball’ results in a penalty If the player deliberately uses his arm/hand to touch or handle the ball (except goal keeper of course). If a player deliberately uses his hands to stop a goal it’s a red card. If a player deliberately uses his hands to stop a play the ref may issue a yellow card. Today’s call was 100% accurate. The player did not deliberately handle the ball with his arm. It was ball to arm, not arm to ball. Deliberate, deliberate, deliberate. 

I talked to a good friend about this yesterday. He's registered in Ohio to ref highschool soccer matches. He said that it might not even be deliberately trying to use the hands/arm to interfere with the ball. It's not like the player has to reach out for the ball. It could be the player is keeping their arms out a bit from their body, or more forward as to make their body bigger to receive the ball. If the ball hits their arm it could be called handling.

As my friend put it, there is a lot of gray area for the ref to make a judgment call.

[Zeph]

VAR might notice and correct more situations, but it will never be perfect, there's always subjectivity at play. The referee is a person and everyone in the VAR room are. Even if you had no subjectivity, there are so many situations where you simply can't tell what happened from videos, even with ten different angles, and they will always be discussed. The way VAR has cut some games into pieces, I don't know if the current version is the best for the future. Maybe VAR should be less involved and be given authority to make calls without the referee having to review it. That undermines the referee, but if justice and fairness is the ultimate goal, it wouldn't be unheard of to give them such powers for the sake of flow in the match.

The scenes with players calling for VAR and drawing air-screens with their fingers every time someone hits the ground gets tedious. At the same time, obvious penalties might justify it all. And we've seen a lot of penalties this world cup.

It'll be interesting to see what happens today. I think Germany and Brasil will make it, but maybe not in first place. All of today's teams except Costa Rica can advance, though I don't think South Korea's chances are very good.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Zeph

[Vinsk]

24 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

might not even be deliberately trying to use the hands/arm to interfere with the ball.

Your friend is another of the many who doesn’t understand the rule. 

Must be deliberate....now read what you wrote above. 

[dennyjones]

4 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Your friend is another of the many who doesn’t understand the rule. 

Must be deliberate....now read what you wrote above. 

I completely agree with your thoughts but that's not the way it's called at any level.   I've coached and been a referee at the state level and have seen the same referee call and not call the same situation in the same game.    What @saevel25 stated seems to be the most common. 

[p1n9183]

Like the hawk eye in tennis, it could be applied to VAR. Each team have 2..3 chances to challenge the referre call with VAR each half. If the referee change his call after watching the replay the team keep his challenge and if not the team lose one challenge. Only the captain of a team can call for the challenge.  

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

I talked to a good friend about this yesterday. He's registered in Ohio to ref highschool soccer matches. He said that it might not even be deliberately trying to use the hands/arm to interfere with the ball. It's not like the player has to reach out for the ball. It could be the player is keeping their arms out a bit from their body, or more forward as to make their body bigger to receive the ball. If the ball hits their arm it could be called handling.

As my friend put it, there is a lot of gray area for the ref to make a judgment call.

That’s darn near a quote of what a wrote a few posts ago Matt. 🙂

[Jack Watson]

44 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Your friend is another of the many who doesn’t understand the rule. 

Must be deliberate....now read what you wrote above. 

@saevel25

Your friend is correct.  The ref has to make a judgement call.

@Vinsk

An arm in an unnatural position OR even a failure to avoid a hand ball constitutes a violation depending on the distance from the kicker and ballspeed.  That’s from intent which is a refs judgement call.  You really have to play the game to get the experience with it to understand.  You posted above that no one understands the rule,  but in this case it’s quite clear that’s not so.  

 

Edited June 27, 2018 by Jack Watson

[Vinsk]

38 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

I completely agree with your thoughts but that's not the way it's called at any level

Right. And many get it wrong. I don’t care ‘how it’s called.’ It’s a rule and it is being misunderstood. Just like backstopping in golf is flying under the radar. It’s against the rules.

4 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

@saevel25

Your friend is correct.  The ref has to make a judgement call.

An arm in an unnatural position OR even a failure to avoid a hand ball constitutes a violation depending on the distance from the kicker and ballspeed.  That’s from intent which is a refs judgement call.  You really have to play the game to get the experience with it to understand.  You posted above that no one understands the rule,  but in this case it’s quite clear that’s not so.  

 

No he isn’t. You’re doing what so many do and over complicating the rule. It’s an easy rule but can be difficult to call, yes. But you can’t say ‘may not be deliberate’ then call a penalty. Listen to yourselves. The rule states MUST BE DELIBERATE. You can make up all this jargon about hand position being natural ...that’s just one thing a ref may use to determine if an action was deliberate but it’s not a component of the rule. I’m telling you it’s been misunderstood for years and years. You have to clear your mind from all the shop talk that’s been said about it. Read the rule. If it’s not deliberate it’s not a foul. Period.

[saevel25]

Just now, Vinsk said:

Your friend is another of the many who doesn’t understand the rule. 

Must be deliberate....now read what you wrote above. 

Prove intent. That is what deliberate means, intent. With this, refs have to make a judgment call. Yea, there is a lot of gray area there.

5 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Right. And many get it wrong. I don’t care ‘how it’s called.’ It’s a rule and it is being misunderstood. Just like backstopping in golf is flying under the radar. It’s against the rules.

From FIFA,

Quote

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into

consideration:

• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)

• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)

• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement

• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement

• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement

There is a lot going on here that must be taken into consideration in a sport were people are moving fast, the ball is moving fast, there is pressure to get the call right. It all needs to be called with in seconds of the incident happening. What is also typically taken into consideration is if the hand is in an unnatural position. Are they bowing the their forearms outward to increase the size of their body to receive the ball. If the ball hits their forearm or elbow it should be called handling. Maybe it wasn't deliberate. Maybe it just happened to be how their arms were positioned. They should know better to make sure their elbows are not sticking out.

[iacas]

Without specific examples you guys are all just talking past one another.

I've played soccer for 30 years. There are clear cases where a player is handling the ball, and clear cases where they're not. There are a lot in the middle, too. There's a lot of judgment calls in handling.

https://coachingamericansoccer.com/soccer-rules/hand-ball/ and https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/understanding-handball-rule-what-is-deliberate-offense-what-is-not

Those say the same thing.

Quote

In order to determine that the contact with the ball was intentional, the Referee uses two general criteria:

• If the player moved his hand or arm to the ball; or,
• If the player had sufficient reaction time to move his hand or arm out of the way of the flight of the ball and failed to do so.

That's about it. You can deliberately move your hand/arm into the ball or you can deliberately not move your arm/hand out of the way of the ball.

This includes deliberately putting your arm/hand in a position to affect the ball before it's kicked/played.

Also, @Vinsk, you're probably going too far in trying to assign weight to "deliberate" because in general, players should actively avoid handling the ball, even slightly accidentally. They should seek to avoid forcing an official to make a grey area call. If they don't actively avoid it, even the slightly accidental ones, they will be called out.

Kinda like the opposite of how traveling is called in the NBA.

[Vinsk]

Anybody rooting for Mexico?

[Golfingdad]

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

Without specific examples you guys are all just talking past one another.

I've played soccer for 30 years. There are clear cases where a player is handling the ball, and clear cases where they're not. There are a lot in the middle, too. There's a lot of judgment calls in handling.

https://coachingamericansoccer.com/soccer-rules/hand-ball/ and https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/understanding-handball-rule-what-is-deliberate-offense-what-is-not

Those say the same thing.

That's about it. You can deliberately move your hand/arm into the ball or you can deliberately not move your arm/hand out of the way of the ball.

This includes deliberately putting your arm/hand in a position to affect the ball before it's kicked/played.

Also, @Vinsk, you're probably going too far in trying to assign weight to "deliberate" because in general, players should actively avoid handling the ball, even slightly accidentally. They should seek to avoid forcing an official to make a grey area call. If they don't actively avoid it, even the slightly accidental ones, they will be called out.

Kinda like the opposite of how traveling is called in the NBA.

Yup.  Deliberate is not black and white.  There is plenty of interpretation necessary.

(The non call on Chicharito this morning, for example, was correct IMO)

BTW, lol at one of the rules Matt shared - the idea that a player is running around with his shin guard in his hand flailing it around trying to hit the ball is funny. 🙂

1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

Anybody rooting for Mexico?

Yup.

[Vinsk]

I like how Mexico moves the ball, good flow and players making space for each other. I’ve always been a Brazil fan but gotta say I’m pulling for Mexico.

[nevets88]

I'm torn on rooting for Mexico as they eliminated the USMNT, I wonder how the US would have done in Mexico's group though, they would be hard pressed to do what Mexico did. I did enjoy Mexico beating the Germans though.

[mcanadiens]

10 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

they eliminated the USMNT

USMNT eliminated themselves with a series of blunders. The last straw was a 2-1 loss to Trinidad and Tobago in Couva last fall.

As stated previously. Rooting for Mexico in simply not possible.

 

[Vinsk]

Didn’t expect this with Mex/Swe at all. Damn....Sweden showed up big.

[Vinsk]

Wow! What a change of events! 

[dennyjones]

It was exciting to see the ending of the Germany / South Korea game.   It's not unusual for the defending champion to exit the tournament early.