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Hi guys 

having an issue with a few members and drop point of a water hazard. ( pretty standard stuff I know but bare with me).

on a short par 4 there is a small pond right next to the green, the margin of the hazard is defined by a yellow paint line. Balls often run down on to the green and drop in the hazard crossing the yellow paint line just off the fringe. Simple einough you would think.

The issue is that because the rules say you must drop behind the hazard people insist everyone drops left of the hazard so they must chip over the water. This does not fit with keeping the point it last crissedbthe margin ( the yellow paint line). In some cases if the pin is very much in the left side a straight line back from the margin means you could chip or even putt out to the right and let the slope bring it back to the hole.

People are insistent this is wrong as you’re not going over water, my view is the only factor in the rule is you MUST drop on a straight line between the flag and the point it last crossed the yellow line.

Any thoughts? I did a diagram but my drawing skills are poor so apologies. Is this correct and how do I deal with those that insist everyone else is wrong??

D3857C5C-5750-4620-BBB6-3EA2D69758C5.jpeg

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That looks like it should be a red (lateral) hazard anyway.

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Lateral would make the hole too easy, it would mean always dropping on the green itself. It’s a driveable par 4 so needs a risk reward element.

is a drop zone not contrary to rules of golf? Would that be allowed? Not sure there is a need if I can just get people to do it right 😁

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3 hours ago, Gazzagolf said:

Lateral would make the hole too easy, it would mean always dropping on the green itself. It’s a driveable par 4 so needs a risk reward element.

is a drop zone not contrary to rules of golf? Would that be allowed? Not sure there is a need if I can just get people to do it right 😁

You are correct in what a proper drop should be for a yellow marked water hazard.  It really shouldn't be that difficult if one knows how to read the rules.  When a pond is located close to the green like that, the proper dropping spot can vary widely depending on where the hole is cut on a given day.  There is nothing in the rules that requires one to cross water if the line for a correct drop does not go over the water.

While I agree with Erik that the design is such that in many cases that could be marked as a lateral water hazard, nothing in the rules says that it must be marked red.  As you say, it's a short par 4, so designating it as a regular water hazard may be in keeping with the intent of the designer.  

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6 hours ago, Gazzagolf said:

Lateral would make the hole too easy, it would mean always dropping on the green itself. It’s a driveable par 4 so needs a risk reward element.

is a drop zone not contrary to rules of golf? Would that be allowed? Not sure there is a need if I can just get people to do it right 😁

6. Dropping Zones
The Committee may establish dropping zones on which balls may or must be dropped when the Committee considers that it is not feasible or practicable to proceed exactly in conformity with Rule 24-2b or Rule 24-3 (Immovable Obstruction), Rule 25-1b or 25-1c (Abnormal Ground Conditions), 25-3 (Wrong Putting Green), Rule 26-1 (Water Hazards and Lateral Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable).

Generally, such dropping zones should be provided as an additional relief option to those available under the Rule itself, rather than being mandatory.

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14322

 

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The description for this type of situation now given by the R&A and USGA is 'Back on a Line'.

It is exactly what it seems. Take a line from the hole, through the last point of entry into the hazard, back along that line as far as you line. 

Explain to "people" that that is what the RBs require. Back on a Line

 

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11 hours ago, Gazzagolf said:

Lateral would make the hole too easy, it would mean always dropping on the green itself.

I agree this should be a lateral hazard.  Sure, it'd make the hole easier, but it would also eliminate confusion, and would eliminate cases where a foot of difference in the point of entry would have a huge impact on the play of the hole, encouraging players to "cheat" it a bit.  If the hole is too easy, that's the designer's fault. 😉

But...yes, you're completely right about the drops as it is currently marked.

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If madw a lareal, there could be many problems in using the option to drop within 2cl not nearer the hole

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Thanks folks 

good to know I’m on right track, think I will write a clear explanation with a diagram relating specifically to the hole ( better drawn!) and post it on comp board and email it out to all so there is no confusion. Personally I can’t see why it’s so difficult!

Thanks for all your input 👍👍

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3 hours ago, Rulesman said:

If madw a lareal, there could be many problems in using the option to drop within 2cl not nearer the hole

I don't think there would be that many problems. It'd only be a problem when you landed just about perpendicular to the flag and if the water hazard was concave, not convex.

I think it should be a lateral. From the drawing the water hazard doesn't need to be "negotiated" or "overcome" to play the hole.

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On 7/19/2018 at 6:30 AM, iacas said:

I don't think there would be that many problems. It'd only be a problem when you landed just about perpendicular to the flag and if the water hazard was concave, not convex.

I think it should be a lateral. From the drawing the water hazard doesn't need to be "negotiated" or "overcome" to play the hole.

The criterion for marking red rather than is not really whether the hazard needs to be negotiated. The USGA philosophy is that the default is yellow; red only if "there is a good reason not to mark yellow" i.e. impractical to drop on a line back from the hole. I see the argument for red but I think the USGA would go with yellow for the reasons stated.

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Would be R&A here but same applies and red would spoil the hole and make it too easy, the key to the hole is deciding whether to risk the water and go for the green. If it were red you’d always have a go at it and if you hit it you’d still be guaranteed a par pretty much. Just have to keep trying to explain 😁

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6 minutes ago, Gazzagolf said:

Would be R&A here but same applies and red would spoil the hole and make it too easy, the key to the hole is deciding whether to risk the water and go for the green. If it were red you’d always have a go at it and if you hit it you’d still be guaranteed a par pretty much. Just have to keep trying to explain 😁

I don’t agree with that.

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Which bit? That it would spoil the hole?

hard to explain you’d gave to play it or see it to appreciate what I mean I guess

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4 hours ago, Gazzagolf said:

Which bit? That it would spoil the hole?

hard to explain you’d gave to play it or see it to appreciate what I mean I guess

If your picture is accurate, I don't think that:

  • It's "almost a guaranteed par" if you hit it in the hazard.
  • That the "design of the hole" means that the designer intended for it to be a yellow hazard. You can play to the right. Or short of it.

I'd mark it red. It's still risk-reward, and in the cases where you can't drop within two clublengths no closer, you go behind.

6 hours ago, Martyn W said:

The criterion for marking red rather than is not really whether the hazard needs to be negotiated. The USGA philosophy is that the default is yellow; red only if "there is a good reason not to mark yellow" i.e. impractical to drop on a line back from the hole. I see the argument for red but I think the USGA would go with yellow for the reasons stated.

I know this, @Martyn W, but the point of a yellow hazard is traditionally that you must cross over it (or pay a substantial penalty to try to hit around the outside of it), while a lateral hazard is laterally located. Just like this one is. It's to the side.

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

I know this, @Martyn W, but the point of a yellow hazard is traditionally that you must cross over it (or pay a substantial penalty to try to hit around the outside of it), while a lateral hazard is laterally located. Just like this one is. It's to the side.

How about the WH on the left of the green at Augusta #11? Almost identical to the OP post and is marked yellow (with a DZ)

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Just now, Martyn W said:

How about the WH on the left of the green at Augusta #11? Almost identical to the OP post and is marked yellow (with a DZ)

It's a good point. My memory is that players have to play across that a little bit if they're in the left side of the fairway and/or left "first cut." But it's not much… and players generally only find the water if they draw or pull it from the left-center.

If the course was going to take the time to mark a drop zone, I'd be fine with it being yellow, too. But a lot of the time at courses like this, they paint a circle now and then… but it fades, gets mown out, etc. quite often. Plus people seem to think all the time that the two clublengths thing applies when they go in the water, and will drop there anyway. Plus, next year, it may be converted to red anyway, as yellow hazards will drop in frequency quite a bit as many hazards are converted to red penalty areas.

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