2018 Ryder Cup at Le Golf National - Paris, France

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Moxley said:

Now imagine you play a shorter track, where around half the holes are either par 3's, progressively narrow holes, or holes that include forced layups. You have 'full' advantage on 9 holes (lets say 2.5 shots), and still an advantage on the other 9 (since you can take less club), but the advantage is reduced since you can't go 20 yards past, so let's say your advantage on those holes is only 1 shot. On this course you only expect to shoot 3.5 better, and thus the gap between your expected scores is lower. Yes, your're still favourite , but not as strong as a favourite. 

It's still an advantage.

3 minutes ago, Big C said:

Honestly, in thinking about it more, I think Furyk has botched this thing all the way around. It was clear he wanted to get everyone involved on day one, but to put Bubba and Phil out there in foursomes as opposed to fourball is borderline indefensible.

Not really, for two reasons:

• Players who sit until Sunday have a horrible singles record.
• It's often better to get your weaker or not-playing-well players into foursomes. The logic there has been explained a few times, but basically, like you saw with Rory this morning, players playing poorly don't make a lot of birdies, and fourball is a birdie-fest. Foursomes, however, you can win a lot of holes with par, so if your poorer/more "off" players are playing well enough to at least make some pars, they can hold their own in foursomes.

The latter is contrary to what you might think but there's some logic to it.

Unfortunately, Bryson/Phil were playing SO poorly, that they couldn't even manage to make many pars.

3 minutes ago, Big C said:

The other 10 guys are certainly talented enough to engineer a comeback, but I don't think you can say that Furyk put his team in the best possible position to win.

They're two points down, and aren't likely to get swept again even if you put the same groupings out tomorrow. I feel like you're over-reacting to a small sample size here, in a sport where #64 can beat #1 (especially if they're named Nick O'Hern and Tiger Woods) pretty often.

5 minutes ago, Moxley said:

Of course it's always an advantage - but on some courses it's more of an advantage than on others. 

I feel like you're over-stating diminished advantage. They're not playing a course with nine par threes, and even in your goofy example they retained 70% of the advantage.

[Moxley]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

It's still an advantage.

We've established that. Now, what would you prefer, a big advantage, where you maybe win 80% of the time, or a moderate one, where you win 70% of the time? 

 

[lastings]

Lots of doom and gloom around here.   We’re down 5-3, we were up 3-1 after the morning.  Come on.  

[Vinsk]

2 minutes ago, lastings said:

We’re down 5-3, we were up 3-1 after the morning

I think that’s why.

[Valleygolfer]

5 minutes ago, lastings said:

Lots of doom and gloom around here.   We’re down 5-3, we were up 3-1 after the morning.  Come on.  

No worries. Tiger is going to go out and win it all by himself since he is not a team player....

[Gettin Better]

5 minutes ago, lastings said:

Lots of doom and gloom around here.   We’re down 5-3, we were up 3-1 after the morning.  Come on.  

Us Europeans LIKE yr doom & gloom 😂 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Moxley said:

We've established that. Now, what would you prefer, a big advantage, where you maybe win 80% of the time, or a moderate one, where you win 70% of the time? 

Huh? It's never an 80% chance. What are you talking about at this point?

Look, your post implied two things:

• Europeans are better ball strikers.
• The distance advantage was almost completely nullified by the course.

Neither of those are true. That's all I'm saying.

[lastings]

4 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I think that’s why.

Yeah, we had one bad session.   Win 3-1 tomorrow morning and it’s all knotted up again. 

[Moxley]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

Huh? It's never an 80% chance. What are you talking about at this point?

Look, your post implied two things:

• Europeans are better ball strikers.
• The distance advantage was almost completely nullified by the course.

Neither of those are true. That's all I'm saying.

You are attacking a strawman of my argument - I didn't say either of those two things (the first of which I've already clarified that I wasn't implying) , and , as you almost certainly realise, the numbers in my example were purely hypothetical. 

 

[3jacker]

Why all this talk of length (which is ALWAYS an advantage, obviously).. when it was a putting thing today?

[Gettin Better]

2 hours ago, Hazsa said:

Tbf it’s been a fairly common observation across Sky and BBC from both European and American pundits and ex players that this course is set up to favour Europe (tight fairways, punishing rough, relatively slow greens, and then a bit of wind and cool temps too). 

What do you think happens when it's played in American .. do they choose a venue that suits the Europeans ?? No .. its somewhere sunny, wide fairways and little real rough... just a target golf venue.

[jmanbooyaa]

As much as I did not like some of the afternoon pairings we are only down 2  points. We are notoriously bad add alt shot and Euros played the course well in the afternoon.  A solid morning and we are right there. Hopefully Tiger and Reed sync a bit better and get us a point.  Dustin needs to make some putts and the Tony and  Brooks hopefully keep the ball in play and can grab the lead from the start. Lets see what happens and hope for a solid afternoon group.  

[Big C]

@iacas, my take on Phil has been pretty consistent from the beginning of this discussion where I said this.

On ‎7‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:20 PM, Big C said:

I wouldn't go near Phil in Foursomes at this point in his career. Yes, he can still pull off the spectacular recovery shot, but he is just as likely to put his poor partner in a lousy spot. And from what I have seen from the past few weeks, his putting inside of 10 feet is suspect.

I do think he is probably one of the better four-ball options out there, because he can still put up birdies in bunches. 

I agree with the bolded part of what you posted below, which is why I would have had no objection with playing Phil in Friday or Saturday fourball, even if his form has been horrible of late. If you're gonna make Phil a captain's pick, you've got to be willing to at least give him a shot in the team events to see what he is capable of. 

I'm not convinced of the logic in your second bullet point. It may apply to some guys, but I don't think it applies to Phil, who is more erratic then most even when he plays well. In his current form, he is a disaster in foursomes.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Not really, for two reasons:

• Players who sit until Sunday have a horrible singles record.
• It's often better to get your weaker or not-playing-well players into foursomes. The logic there has been explained a few times, but basically, like you saw with Rory this morning, players playing poorly don't make a lot of birdies, and fourball is a birdie-fest. Foursomes, however, you can win a lot of holes with par, so if your poorer/more "off" players are playing well enough to at least make some pars, they can hold their own in foursomes.

 

I think everything I posted above holds true for Bubba, to a lesser extent. 

[ChrisP]

I'll go back to what I said a couple weeks ago....I didn't like the Phil pick. I still don't. I felt it was made for the wrong reasons. You should be picking four of the best players who weren't in the top 8, and I don't think Phil was one of those when the picking process began.

Also, wasn't a fan of some of Furyk's pairings. Spieth/Reed went 2-0-1 in 2014 and had a lot of chemistry together, but he went away from that pairing. Also, if Bubba was as sick as they say, he shouldn't have been playing. Hopefully the illness doesn't spread to the others. But I think Phil and Bubba need to sit the matches tomorrow.

Fleetwood/Molinari pairing really looking strong for Europe. They need to find a way to crack that.

Edited September 29, 2018 by ChrisP

[Buckeyebowman]

On 9/27/2018 at 10:44 AM, Missouri Swede said:

I don't have one of those! I am a Luddite! If the providers can't provide what I want, when I want it, then screw them! I will not knuckle under! If I miss the Ryder Cup, it will not end my life.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Moxley said:

You are attacking a strawman of my argument - I didn't say either of those two things (the first of which I've already clarified that I wasn't implying) , and , as you almost certainly realise, the numbers in my example were purely hypothetical.

Hey, you wrote things that implied those things: that the distance advantage was almost nullified and that the Euros were the better ballstrikers.

And yes, I know the numbers were made up. But anyway…

[skydog]

Win, lose, or draw come Sunday- Furyk deserves a ton of criticism for this afternoon. The BDC/Phil pairing in  foursomes is honestly one of the worst in RC history.  Putting the guy who’s 192 out of 193 on tour in driving accuracy on a tight driving course along with an unproven rookie who tends to be over-emotional and likely to wilt under the pressure?? And the Bubba/Webb pairing? Are you kidding me? Short of furyk himself, they are two of the softest American RC players we’ve seen in the last two decades. Oh yea, and we benched the guy who has won 3 of the last 6 majors he’s played in and has been a rock in team events.

Phil and BDC should not have been on this team and are likely going to cost us the cup. I would have taken a couple of grind it out bulldogs like Sneds and Kisner over them any day of the week.

Edited September 29, 2018 by skydog

[dogburger]

Im happy with day one . This cup has little to with form but with the attitude towards it . I look on day one for the players that are on it , those that embrace it and those that do not .

Europe do have a great team spirit ,they all appear to get on and many are good friends . We seem able to mix it up with the teams we put out a lot more and are not in a straightjacket of he can only play with him type pairings .

The Americans for me are though exceptional players rely more on self motivation and appear fragile when playing with and especially when relying on other players .

We will see how it goes today , which is going to be all about whether the Americans can find some mojo to match the Europeans . If we ,Europe can get 9  points on the board by tonight I will be more than happy with day 2.