Picking Up Wrong Ball

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Obvious the exception is a fellow-competitor maliciously moving your ball to intentionally put you at a disadvantage, as @DeadMan mentioned.

This is what I am looking more at.

Hypothetical,

Player A hits their ball into the woods. Both players are looking for it. Player B, moves player A's ball further behind a tree then says he found it. Player A see this and moves his ball back.

There is no penalty for this action if the match is stroke play? Should Player B be disqualified? If so, then why isn't disqualification the penalty for all scenarios were a golfer maliciously moves a ball? Player A might just be willing to take a 1 stroke penalty if it forces his opponent to take an unplayable lie, or take more than one stroke to get out of the trees in match play. Touching a ball in motion is loss of a hole. What makes that so much more serious than moving a ball at rest?

I don't see a big difference between the different situations and how they are handled.

[DaveP043]

10 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

If not, Hoosier noted "there was no searching, he just assumed it was his ball" - well, the time he was in the area is still a search.....he failed.....(it was in the area he thought the ball was in, and he looked for his ball, and he identified a candiate) - I would say a search was conducted in general terms, perhaps not so if 'search' is explicitly defined though.

If you check Decision 27/2, I'd say that once the player picked up the ball, intending to play it as his own, the time limit for searching was suspended.  Once he realized it was not his ball, the timer would have been restarted.  The decision isn't exactly the same, but its a pretty similar circumstance.

Quote

27/2

 Time Permitted for Search for Lost Ball After Wrong Ball Played

Q.In stroke play, a competitor searches for his ball for three minutes, finds a ball, plays it and then discovers he has played a wrong ball. He returns to the area from which the wrong ball was played and resumes search for his ball. How much time is he allowed for further search - two minutes or five minutes?

A.Two minutes - see Definition of "Lost Ball."

 

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

This is what I am looking more at.

Hypothetical,

Player A hits their ball into the woods. Both players are looking for it. Player B, moves player A's ball further behind a tree then says he found it. Player A see this and moves his ball back.

There is no penalty for this action if the match is stroke play? Should Player B be disqualified? If so, then why isn't disqualification the penalty for all scenarios were a golfer maliciously moves a ball? Player A might just be willing to take a 1 stroke penalty if it forces his opponent to take an unplayable lie, or take more than one stroke to get out of the trees in match play. Touching a ball in motion is loss of a hole. What makes that so much more serious than moving a ball at rest?

I don't see a big difference between the different situations and how they are handled.

I think this is where equity would come into play.  1-2 says that you can't deflect or influence the movement of ball in play.  If a player breaches this rule, and puts another player at a significant disadvantage, it can be classified as a serious breach, with DQ as a possible penalty.  In equity, I'd say intentionally moving a fellow-competitor's ball, to put the FC at a disadvantage, should also be classified as a serious breach.  Generally, the Rules do't consider situations with specific malicious intent, they assume that a player is doing his best to play fairly and within the rules.

[Rulesman]

34-7 If a Committee considers that a player is guilty of a serious breach of etiquette, it may impose a penalty of disqualification under this Rule.

[saevel25]

57 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Generally, the Rules do't consider situations with specific malicious intent, they assume that a player is doing his best to play fairly and within the rules.

I get that. I just don't understand why the distinction between patch play and stroke play. Why not make the rules the same, 1 stroke penalty?

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

I get that. I just don't understand why the distinction between patch play and stroke play. Why not make the rules the same, 1 stroke penalty?

That would mean that every time you pick up a ball on the golf course that isn't yours, you'd be penalized.  Every time.  Because that ball belonged at one time to another player.  Or would you apply it only when you're in the same group with the player whose ball you picked up?  What if someone in a different group from yours picked up your ball that you rocketed over the trees into into the rough on the other side of their fairway?  (I'm teasing with that bit, I know how long you can hit it). Is that guy penalized?  He has no idea whether its your ball, or a ball someone lost a week ago.  But he's a fellow-competitor under the rules, the exact same status as the guys in your group, he has to be treated the same (equitably).  I think the distinction between stroke and match play makes a lot of sense the way it is.

[Shindig]

13 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I get that. I just don't understand why the distinction between patch play and stroke play. Why not make the rules the same, 1 stroke penalty?

Lots of things are different between match play and stroke play.  They're essentially different games with similarities. 

[saevel25]

35 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

That would mean that every time you pick up a ball on the golf course that isn't yours, you'd be penalized.  Every time.  Because that ball belonged at one time to another player.  Or would you apply it only when you're in the same group with the player whose ball you picked up? 

I am tired of people stealing golf balls just because they happen to see one in between holes.

 

[Fourputt]

5 hours ago, saevel25 said:

This is what I am looking more at.

Hypothetical,

Player A hits their ball into the woods. Both players are looking for it. Player B, moves player A's ball further behind a tree then says he found it. Player A see this and moves his ball back.

There is no penalty for this action if the match is stroke play? Should Player B be disqualified? If so, then why isn't disqualification the penalty for all scenarios were a golfer maliciously moves a ball? Player A might just be willing to take a 1 stroke penalty if it forces his opponent to take an unplayable lie, or take more than one stroke to get out of the trees in match play. Touching a ball in motion is loss of a hole. What makes that so much more serious than moving a ball at rest?

I don't see a big difference between the different situations and how they are handled.

If it's stroke play then it isn't a match, even if you and your playing companion are the only ones competing.  A match is by definition, match play.  When discussing the Rules of Golf, knowing and using correct terminology is important for communicating your point.  

First of all the rules aren't really written to address the sort of cheating that you imagine in your hypothetical.  If A doesn't see the action and plays from the spot to which B moved it, it's a major problem.  If I caught B doing anything like that in a competition, we would be heading straight to the committee, and he probably gets disqualified for such deliberate, calculated cheating.  

A ball at rest which is subsequently moved can be replaced without changing the way the hole plays out.  Deflecting or stopping a ball in motion creates a situation where you really can't determine where the ball might have come to rest, or how things may have played out had the movement of the ball not been altered.  That makes the second case more serious and deserving of the additional penalty.  

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

If it's stroke play then it isn't a match, even if you and your playing companion are the only ones competing.  A match is by definition, match play.  When discussing the Rules of Golf, knowing and using correct terminology is important for communicating your point.  

So, two players, playing an 18 hole stroke play match isn't a match? 

I think that isn't correct. 

My point is made with the knowledge I know. I kept asking questions about it.  appreciate your concern for the matter. Thank you for correcting my terminology. 

3 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

First of all the rules aren't really written to address the sort of cheating that you imagine in your hypothetical.  If A doesn't see the action and plays from the spot to which B moved it, it's a major problem.  If I caught B doing anything like that in a competition, we would be heading straight to the committee, and he probably gets disqualified for such deliberate, calculated cheating. 

The question is, does the same person get disqualified in a Match play event? 

Lets say the reason for the disqualification is because it's an egregious breach of the rules. Then, why is it only a 1 stroke penalty in match play? Why not disqualification? Why not a loss of a hole penalty? 

 

[Fourputt]

9 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

So, two players, playing an 18 hole stroke play match isn't a match? 

I think that isn't correct. 

My point is made with the knowledge I know. I kept asking questions about it.  appreciate your concern for the matter. Thank you for correcting my terminology. 

The question is, does the same person get disqualified in a Match play event? 

Lets say the reason for the disqualification is because it's an egregious breach of the rules. Then, why is it only a 1 stroke penalty in match play? Why not disqualification? Why not a loss of a hole penalty? 

 

It still isn't a match unless it's match play.  That is one of the most common misuses of a term in golf.  (The other is using "opponent" in place of fellow competitor in stroke play.)  It may be a competition, but if you're playing stroke play, it isn't a match.

As for DQ, I'd say yes, the form of play really doesn't matter.  Such an egregious act on the part of a fellow competitor or opponent is deserving of only one result.  Even though you only caught him one time, there is no way of knowing how many times he did something similar without being caught.  Any committee that didn't DQ a player for such acts would be remiss in it's duty.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Fourputt

[Shindig]

12 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

So, two players, playing an 18 hole stroke play match isn't a match? 

I think that isn't correct. 

It is not a "match play" situation, though, as far as the rules are concerned.  If you and your friends are going out to play 18 holes, hole everything, lowest total score wins, you might colloquially call it a match, but as far as RoG goes, it's stroke play.

When Tiger Woods and Rocco Mediate went out on a nice Monday morning to settle the matter of who was the winner of the 2008 U.S. Open, you might want to call that a match.  But it was stroke play, and the rules of that mattered -- even though it was just the two of them.

The 1962 U.S. Open ended in an 18 hole playoff, stroke play, but it was only two players:  Arnold Palmer, playing at Oakmont in front of a largely hometown crowd, and he was up against a 22 year old who had never won on the PGA Tour up to that point (much less a major!).  Palmer made a double bogey on the last hole, taking him to three over for the day.  His opponent had a tap-in for a bogey and even par for the day.  Palmer picked up his (the opponent's) marker to concede the putt but the USGA rules official stepped in to remind him that no, you cannot concede a putt in stroke play.  Palmer put the marker back and his opponent, Jack Nicklaus, made the putt and went on to a fantastic career in his own right.

My point is that stroke play and match play are different games with a lot in common, but the situation is different.  And knowing the conditions of the competition is important to knowing what rule applies.  But even a great player can get them wrong on occasion  

[Rulesman]

8 hours ago, saevel25 said:

So, two players, playing an 18 hole stroke play match isn't a match? 

I think that isn't correct. 

 

 

A match consists of one side playing against another over a stipulated round unless otherwise decreed by the Committee.

In match play the game is played by holes.

Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, a hole is won by the side that holes its ball in the fewer strokes. In a handicap match, the lower net score wins the hole.

The state of the match is expressed by the terms: so many "holes up" or "all square," and so many "to play."

The winner of a match is the player who wins the most holes.

 

A stroke-play competition consists of competitors completing each hole of a stipulated round or rounds and, for each round, returning a score card on which there is a gross score for each hole. Each competitoris playing against every other competitor in the competition.

The competitor who plays the stipulated round or rounds in the fewest strokes is the winner.

[Missouri Swede]

On 8/9/2018 at 9:27 AM, saevel25 said:

Is any malicious intent in stroke play fall under Rule 1, disqualification by the committee?

 

On 8/9/2018 at 10:25 AM, DeadMan said:

That said, I think you deal with malicious intent in stroke play by disqualification under 33-7. This would be really rare, though. For example, finding a ball you know is another player's but then throwing it into weeds so he can't find it.

License to be malicious: