Another Penalty for Lexi Thompson

[Rulesman]

43 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

I really don't remember this before 2004 rule changes when I competed. It must be a recent thing,

It was certainly a LR well before then. Perhaps you didn't play in any comps where it was invoked. The restriction to own fairway is an option - not compulsory. As is any restriction to the area(s) of relief.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Rulesman

[iacas]

@PraiseKek, please stop. You’re just embarrassing yourself. It’s an approved, valid LR per the USGA.

One can easily surmise the logic behind it.

Preferred lies are part of the Rules, too. By definition.

[Shindig]

3 hours ago, PraiseKek said:

I really don't remember this before 2004 rule changes when I competed. It must be a recent thing, like many regressions in golf and the dumbing down in society as a whole. 

There was a rules incident with Sergio Garcia and Andrew Magee (same day, same course) and lift-clean-place at the 2001 International.  Both thought LCP was in play that day, as it had been both prior days.  It wasn't.

[PraiseKek]

8 hours ago, Rulesman said:

It was certainly a LR well before then. Perhaps you didn't play in any comps where it was invoked. The restriction to own fairway is an option - not compulsory. As is any restriction to the area(s) of relief.

I played many muddy, rain soaked days without the local rule referencing fairways. This is a recent trend, but I'm not sure if it is a post-2004 wording approval as well. It looks like it is.

Who is to say what fairway it is? I would like to see the local rule wording. The fairway Thompson played down was certainly "her fairway". It was maybe correct game theory to hit it where she did with a quartering left tailwind wind. It leaves a better angle to the green making 3's and 4's much more likely. 

I don't think local rules should ever arbitrarily get in the way of valid strategy. It isn't fair to her. Her advantage is distance. Put OB, grow taller trees, or limit the flight of the ball for everyone if you don't want this to happen. I am very interested in what steps the LPGA took to define the fairways. It wouldn't surprise me if there were a map of fairways, but if there wasn't, and just this local rule, then I don't think it is a penalty if poorly defined.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

I played many muddy, rain soaked days without the local rule referencing fairways. This is a recent trend, but I'm not sure if it is a post-2004 wording approval as well. It looks like it is.

He told you it's not.

4 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

Who is to say what fairway it is? I would like to see the local rule wording. The fairway Thompson played down was certainly "her fairway". It was maybe correct game theory to hit it where she did with a quartering left tailwind wind. It leaves a better angle to the green making 3's and 4's much more likely.

It was not the fairway of the hole being played.

4 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

I don't think local rules should ever arbitrarily get in the way of valid strategy.

They don't. They simply limited the area in which she could lift, clean, and place. The strategy still exists… Just as she could have hit it in the rough (and not gotten LCP).

4 minutes ago, PraiseKek said:

It isn't fair to her.

Yes it is, because it's the same for everyone.

If you have nothing legitimate to consider, perhaps move along.

[PraiseKek]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

He told you it's not.

It was not the fairway of the hole being played.

They don't. They simply limited the area in which she could lift, clean, and place. The strategy still exists… Just as she could have hit it in the rough (and not gotten LCP).

Yes it is, because it's the same for everyone.

If you have nothing legitimate to consider, perhaps move along.

Lot's of arguing without facts. Unless you saw the rulesheet, it is impossible to say whether it was correctly written or not. The fairways need to be defined, because it is not immediately obvious when you see the layout of the hole.

Look at the hole. I tend to doubt she just blocked one right since the hole location was back right, but it depends on the wind and green. It looks like the green is more receptive from the right half of the split fairways. The draw is more challenging here as well, the look is better playing a push fade. You have to be downwind as to avoid getting hung up. 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by PraiseKek

[Rulesman]

Looks pretty well defined to me. Trees and rough from one end to the other. But it the definition is even better if you 'define' fairway as closely mown.

The right hand one was not the fairway of the hole being played.

[Rulesman]

A further comment by the R&A.

The course might not necessarily be that muddy everywhere, it might just be that the fairways are a bit scruffy, uneven, or have been worked on. If a player hits his own fairway, then he probably expects (certainly nowadays) a good lie, hence preferred lies may apply. However, if he hits a bad shot onto another fairway, the Committee may not be inclined to be as sympathetic, after all he has hit a bad shot and he should take his medicine. Therefore, as all the fairways may not be too bad, the Committee may feel that it is right to have preferred lies only on the hole being played.

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Rulesman

[Zeph]

3 hours ago, PraiseKek said:

Lot's of arguing without facts. Unless you saw the rulesheet, it is impossible to say whether it was correctly written or not. The fairways need to be defined, because it is not immediately obvious when you see the layout of the hole.

Look at the hole. I tend to doubt she just blocked one right since the hole location was back right, but it depends on the wind and green. It looks like the green is more receptive from the right half of the split fairways. The draw is more challenging here as well, the look is better playing a push fade. You have to be downwind as to avoid getting hung up. 

Do you even believe what you're writing or are you just arguing to argue at this point? Of course it's better to hit your own fairway there. And there is no doubt which fairway belongs to your hole. Come on... Are you seriously saying someone on the LPGA Tour or who's just playing casual golf for that matter would ever think that the right fairway belongs to the hole she was playing? There's trees between them, there's two cartpaths, there's rough, there's another green, there's another tee. The scorecard also illustrates which fairway belongs to which hole.

By hitting the other fairway...

1. You make hole longer.
2. You have less fairway and green to bail on for your approach shot.
3. You have to hit it far enough to clear the trees to avoid having to hit a draw around them.
4. You are approaching the green from an unfavorable angle, with less green to work with. Especially with a back right hole location. If you hit from the wrong fairway, you got very little to miss on. 

Lexi sliced one right, got lucky by not hitting the rough or a tree, but finding a fairway that gave her a clear view to the green. She then did something stupid, got her penalty and ended up making a good par after all. I don't believe she hit it there on purpose, not that it makes any difference.

I also don't see why you having no experience with the rule has got anything to do with this situation.

As far as I've seen, Lexi hasn't objected or claimed the LPGA didn't inform well enough about the rule, so why should we assume that was the case?

[PraiseKek]

1 hour ago, Zeph said:

Do you even believe what you're writing or are you just arguing to argue at this point?

As far as I've seen, Lexi hasn't objected or claimed the LPGA didn't inform well enough about the rule, so why should we assume that was the case?

I believe what I'm saying without pedantry or trolling. I'm truly curious what the rulesheet says. Numbered fairways from the default scorecard is not enough for me. From the layout of the hole it is clearly a split fairway the architect had in mind in play for bigger hitters. Going the right route adds 20 yards, but if the wind is going there anyway, you have a safer tee shot, especially if you are playing to win from behind. You absolutely should increase scoring variance to maximize win percentage. 

Point taken about her not objecting on the grounds I'm stating. It could be black and white and she knew the rule, but spaced it playing it intentionally where she did. Penalty, fine. Comments criticizing her rules knowledge seem to preclude her arguing to the contrary though.

I just think if you invoke a local rule, don't make arbitrary rules that punish specific players. There are many split fairways in golf, intended or accidental, just like there are many double greens. It just gets too arbitrary in this spot to be fair. The USGA has made golf indecipherable to someone who understands the rules. I took a while off from golf, and seeing the 2019 rule changes just hurt my head. So many double standards now for pros and amateurs. The OB rule, the conforming grooves. I can't compete again until I replace all of my clubs. I don't have a problem upgrading my driver, but my blades I thought I would play for the rest of my life. I can't enjoy golf with my tall friends because manufacturers no longer produce shafts long enough for them. All of these arbitrary decisions have added up to a huge golf recession. So many reasons to be arguing in this thread versus people just accepting such a situation.

I mean no ill will. I want to play golf, but this mindset is hard for me to follow.

Edited August 20, 2018 by PraiseKek

[iacas]

1 hour ago, PraiseKek said:

From the layout of the hole it is clearly a split fairway the architect had in mind in play for bigger hitters.

No, it isn't. The fairway you are considering is another hole's fairway. That is one of the most ridiculous things you've said in this discussion. As @Zeph said it has its own tee, green, there are cart paths in the way, etc.

1 hour ago, PraiseKek said:

Going the right route adds 20 yards, but if the wind is going there anyway, you have a safer tee shot, especially if you are playing to win from behind.

The ideal approach angle on that hole is LEFT. Not right. Look at the green.

1 hour ago, PraiseKek said:

I just think if you invoke a local rule, don't make arbitrary rules that punish specific players.

That Local Rule does no such thing.

1 hour ago, PraiseKek said:

It just gets too arbitrary in this spot to be fair.

Where by "too arbitrary" you mean "not at all arbitrary." Got it.

1 hour ago, PraiseKek said:

The USGA has made golf indecipherable to someone who understands the rules.

Completely disagree. And please don't try to pass off that you're now "someone who understands the rules." You've demonstrated no such thing.

1 hour ago, PraiseKek said:

I can't compete again until I replace all of my clubs. I don't have a problem upgrading my driver, but my blades I thought I would play for the rest of my life.

Your blades are probably fine.

1 hour ago, PraiseKek said:

I can't enjoy golf with my tall friends because manufacturers no longer produce shafts long enough for them.

What?!?!

1 hour ago, PraiseKek said:

All of these arbitrary decisions have added up to a huge golf recession.

Yeah, it's the RULES that caused that.

🤦🏼‍♂️

Let's stick to the topic, please.

[HJJ003]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

No, it isn't. The fairway you are considering is another hole's fairway. That is one of the most ridiculous things you've said in this discussion. As @Zeph said it has its own tee, green, there are cart paths in the way, etc.

Yup...not to mention the holes/fairways go in opposite directions.

[Jeremie Boop]

2 hours ago, PraiseKek said:

From the layout of the hole it is clearly a split fairway the architect had in mind in play for bigger hitters.

So, by that logic, any time two holes run pretty much parallel then the architect meant for the other hole's fairway to be a secondary fairway? I've played plenty of holes that legitimately had a split fairway and never once did it have cart paths and trees between the two options. Some rough and/or sand traps, even trees sure, but nothing that is typically considered a clear delineation between holes like cart paths. Seems like a pretty logical and self evident conclusion that she missed her fairway and is not eligible for lcp. It wouldn't be considered a hit fairway statistically so why would it be considered a fairway for the local rule?

Edited August 20, 2018 by Jeremie Boop

[Groucho Valentine]

Preferred lies has always meant your own fairway. The starter usually tells you that as well. The rule itself might be silly (because the whole course is usally in the same condition that warrants that local rule to begin with) but it is what it is. 

[rehmwa]

Meh - you get a brainfart and you take a penalty.  Everyone hits a bad drive on occassion, she was probably happy that it was bad enough that it went over the trees and found a decent lie.  (I REALLY doubt that was an intentional strategy....)  I've seen the best of the best get that.  Good thing the official let her know so it wasn't compounded even worse later.

non-story - another learning opportunity

Edited August 20, 2018 by rehmwa

[saevel25]

The point of making it the fairway of the hole they are playing is so the rule benefits good shots. Believe me, I’ve spent my golfing life making pars from other fairways. In no way did I hit a good tee shot. Why should I benefit from preferred lies? Just because I happen to hit such a bad shot that I ended up in another fairway? 

In the end, it’s up to the players to read the rules provided to them and then remember them. 

[Vinsk]

7 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The point of making it the fairway of the hole they are playing is so the rule benefits good shots. Believe me, I’ve spent my golfing life making pars from other fairways. In no way did I hit a good tee shot. Why should I benefit from preferred lies? Just because I happen to hit such a bad shot that I ended up in another fairway? 

In the end, it’s up to the players to read the rules provided to them and then remember them. 

Yes. But I believe @PraiseKek feels that playing your tee shot to the adjacent hole (#6) is a strategy and therefore shouldn’t penalize long hitters who chose to do so. He also states he feels this hole is a split fairway (he’s obviously joking). Either way....well there you have it.

[colin007]

This thread delivers.