How should a golfer exercise?

[Zeph]

How should be use our bodies to enhance performance, but maybe more importantly protect our body from injuries,wear and tear?

Should we lift weights? Do yoga? Pilates? Body weight exercises? Twisting and bending exercises? Balance and stability training?

What thoughts do you guys have on this topic? I know of course that many in here got personal experience with a lot of this, but I want to be very careful with anecdotal evidence since it never works for everyone. A slim person might do yoga every day and love it, while a larger built person wouldn't be able to without aches and pains emerging before long.

I don't belive you gain much golf performance through physical exercise, despite the popularity of this in recent years among the professionals. Some are very strong and lift heavy weights, but is it helping or can it hurt them? Of course, being able to walk 18 holes without almost almost having a stroke before the end is an advantage, but I think that largely solves itself just by playing golf. If you never walk or move around much, suddenly playing 18 holes might be a struggle, but if you play golf regularly, that will in itself make you better suited to play 18 holes.

I am frequently in the company of two men in their 60's. One is a tall, retired police officer that's put on some weight and doesn't do much physical activity anymore. The other is shorter and slim man that's practiced aikido (Japanese martial arts) for many years and still remains physically active. The latter rolls on the floor with grandchildren and is in what I would consider great physical shape for his age. The other does not roll on the floor and would perhaps struggle doing so. The older I get, the more aware I've become of how the body is on a steady decline from some age in the teens or early 20's, and what I should do to keep myself physically fit for as long as possible. That does not mean building a muscular body for the beach, but a sustainable body that can be physically active, both with golf and other activities, for many years. And might not achieve this even if I work out 3-4 times a week if the things I do are hurting me in the long run.

I've worked out for about 7 years, dealt with some back pain, and I've often come across the name Stuart McGill. A professor and one of the leading experts on the spine and back, with experience that includes world class athletes. He has also worked with golfers and made comments on what he thinks is the better approach for a golfer. One thing he does not recommend is combining the flexible maneuver that is the golf swing with lifting heavy weights, since in golf you want flexilibity and moving in an acrobatic fashion, while the other focuses on stationary strength and keeping still while moving a weight (or a weight and yourself). He even says it might be counter-productive and could hurt you down the line.

On a few podcasts he's mentioned Rory McIlroy, and here's a quote from one:

Quote

There's a new Nike commercial out showing Rory McIlroy training. He is mixing up supreme mobility training with supreme loading. Here's my prediction: That type of training, just like Tiger, will increase the short-term ability to play golf, but he will not last and be a legacy like Nicklaus, Palmer, Player, those people who didn't train that way. The recognized the mobility needed for golf and the neurology and the rest of it, but they lasted because they didn't have all the strength training.

 

[saevel25]

38 minutes ago, Zeph said:

I don't belive you gain much golf performance through physical exercise, despite the popularity of this in recent years among the professionals. Some are very strong and lift heavy weights, but is it helping or can it hurt them? Of course, being able to walk 18 holes without almost almost having a stroke before the end is an advantage, but I think that largely solves itself just by playing golf. If you never walk or move around much, suddenly playing 18 holes might be a struggle, but if you play golf regularly, that will in itself make you better suited to play 18 holes.

It's not being able to walk 18 holes. It's being able to swing at high speed a lot. Having flexibility, coupled with muscle strength, protects the ligaments and joints from wear and tear.

Rory's driving distance
2007: 295.5 yards
2017:  317.2 yards

Once he started lifting weights, he gained a significant amount of yards off the tee. He went form that pudgy looking kid to an athlete.

A physical weakness can cause a need for a compensation in the swing.

45 minutes ago, Zeph said:

I've worked out for about 7 years, dealt with some back pain, and I've often come across the name Stuart McGill. A professor and one of the leading experts on the spine and back, with experience that includes world class athletes. He has also worked with golfers and made comments on what he thinks is the better approach for a golfer. One thing he does not recommend is combining the flexible maneuver that is the golf swing with lifting heavy weights, since in golf you want flexilibity and moving in an acrobatic fashion, while the other focuses on stationary strength and keeping still while moving a weight (or a weight and yourself). He even says it might be counter-productive and could hurt you down the line.

Does he actually define how it actually would hurt a golfer? It sounds like he's not sure.

To go after his quote a bit. Maybe Tiger breaks down sooner with out his workout routine? He doesn't know. He's taking one data point and making an assumption that everybody will do the same. What about all the other golfers who work out similar to Tiger and Rory who do not get hurt?

In the end, we have no clue the longevity these golfers will have. Maybe they will fade away more so because it is much harder to maintain a spot on the PGA Tour than it has ever been. You really can't make these sorts of claims.

Athletes in every sport use exercise to maintain optimal performance and longevity. Should pitchers stop strengthening the muscles around their elbows? That sounds absurd doesn't it?

It could be that golfers are getting injured more because they are stronger and swing faster. Not that they wear themselves down working out.

[Mr. Desmond]

I think a balance works - flexibility, balancing, weights (although not necessarily power-like lifting), aerobics (for endurance), you can mix up pilates, yoga, etc. with it, and speed training. And if you can, throwing a medicine ball against a wall - just wish I had that wall.

Around 2005 or so, I noticed that golfers had big arms - not only biceps/triceps, but forearms and wrists seemed built up - bigger than the average am. Faster arm speed and strength to get through the rough? Perhaps. But it made an impression.

As to weight lifting, everyone's body is different. You don't need to be a linebacker, and you can be at the top of your game without max weight - a golfer is not a weight lifter, he is a golfer. One can get overall tone and strength in the body while maintaining flexibility - and I bet that's the goal of most pros. Of course, their trainers can overdo it.

I remember Jason Day about 1.5 yrs ago - his trainer went off the program and had Jason buffed up - his game suffered, and his coach and consultant got into Jason's head that being a linebacker is not the best feature in climbing back to #1. They ratcheted it down.

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Mr. Desmond

[saevel25]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

I remember Jason Day about 1.5 yrs ago - his trainer went off the program and had Jason buffed up - his game suffered, and his coach and consultant got into Jason's head that being a linebacker is not the best feature in climbing back to #1. They ratcheted it down.

He never looked like a linebacker. He doesn't look that much different from 2016 (top photo) to 2018 (bottom photo)

It's more likely he suffered because he has battled that vertigo issue, and he has some injuries. If that was caused by exercising or not, no one knows.

Look at Fred Couples. He's had back issues his entire career. He was clearly not a fitness buff. He had one of the smoothest swings of all time.

Until there is significant evidence, from the golfer's themselves, saying they injured themselves while working out, then I will not draw conclusions that exercising is causing them longevity issues.

[Mr. Desmond]

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

He never looked like a linebacker. He doesn't look that much different from 2016 (top photo) to 2018 (bottom photo)

It's more likely he suffered because he has battled that vertigo issue, and he has some injuries. If that was caused by exercising or not, no one knows.

Look at Fred Couples. He's had back issues his entire career. He was clearly not a fitness buff. He had one of the smoothest swings of all time.

Until there is significant evidence, from the golfer's themselves, saying they injured themselves while working out, then I will not draw conclusions that exercising is causing them longevity issues.

Early 2017 was when he was bulking up, and they had his trainer change the program. Just telling you the facts as I know them.

But the point is you don't need to bulk up - it's a balance.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Mr. Desmond

[saevel25]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

Early 2017 was when he was bulking up, and they had his trainer change the program. Just telling you the facts as I know them.

But the point is you don't need to bulk up - it's a balance.

Half a year wouldn't put on that much. He wasn't get huge. It's the same thing with Tiger. He never go as huge as people claimed he did. Especially if you saw him in person.

[Zeph]

@saevel25I'm on mobile and didn't want to mess around with quotes right now.

I found a YouTube of McGill about golf that I haven't been able to listen to yet. https://youtu.be/stxpULV_bKs

I can't say if Rory's hurting himself or if Tiger did with lifting weights. It's also a very small sample size that one can't draw a lot of conclusions out of. That lifting weights can cause injury is of course a fact, but I was more interested in finding out if weight lifting, even when done correctly and without patterns that cause problems, can be a negative thing. There might of course, as always, be an individual component where one golfer lifts 200kg without problems and another gets into trouble with 100kg. I'm hoping he talks more about this in the video I linked above. 

It's true they aren't especially huge on tour, except Koepka and a few others I guess, but you don't have to be huge to be strong. While strength and muscle mass is heavily related, there are many that look quite slim, but can lift tremendous weights. 

Swinging faster and being stronger is a potential way they can wear their bodies out, I agree. Maybe there will be more injuries and short careers in an era focused more on working out and becoming stronger. Not necessarily the workouts themselves, but that the training makes them able to swing faster and harder, putting more stress on the body. One can of course understand the want to be stronger and faster, since it's the bombers that rule the tour. Like Luke Donald said a few years ago, he didn't think he could do what he did today with his length.

[Mr. Desmond]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Half a year wouldn't put on that much. He wasn't get huge. It's the same thing with Tiger. He never go as huge as people claimed he did. Especially if you saw him in person.

Once again, I am just telling you from sources that know... his game had suffered, he cut out some bulk, they say his game improved. It's not my opinion ... ONCE again, the point is that you can take it too far as to bulking up. Maybe it affects his flexibility? Maybe my point is invalid - are you saying there are no limits? Push, push, push?

As to Tiger, yes, he was never as big as the linebacker they described. I think it's an individual assessment. Not saying that exercise hurts -- but it's possible that doing too much of a certain exercise and bulking up instead of toning up, may have a detrimental effect on a game.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Mr. Desmond

[GolfLug]

 

8 hours ago, Zeph said:

I've worked out for about 7 years, dealt with some back pain, and I've often come across the name Stuart McGill. A professor and one of the leading experts on the spine and back, with experience that includes world class athletes. He has also worked with golfers and made comments on what he thinks is the better approach for a golfer. One thing he does not recommend is combining the flexible maneuver that is the golf swing with lifting heavy weights, since in golf you want flexilibity and moving in an acrobatic fashion, while the other focuses on stationary strength and keeping still while moving a weight (or a weight and yourself). He even says it might be counter-productive and could hurt you down the line.

On a few podcasts he's mentioned Rory McIlroy, and here's a quote from one:

 

 I do not believe for a second that lifting reasonable weights hurt anybody from a longevity POV, unless they were frequently locking joints in trying to lift just ungodly weights with poor form.  Even basketball players lift weights and they have some of the softest arms and wrists in motion. 

I think from everything I have researched the best combo is to focus on muscular pliability for speed (performance attribute) and enough core stability to support your speed. Really, just keep your joints from locking out. Honestly my money is on the new fangled combo training programs rather than just weights. I like what McGill says from that perspective.

For me, jury is out on the likes of Rory and Jason. It not unreasonable to think that their swings have a different dynamic balance even slightly. But that could also be because they are older and naturally filled out. Better or worse? I don't know, the answer is complex in the least.   

Edited August 21, 2018 by GolfLug

[Zeph]

16 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Does he actually define how it actually would hurt a golfer? It sounds like he's not sure.

 

Here's an excerpt from the video, where he addresses some of it:

Quote

I see the odd commercial of a golfer doing some training, and I see them doing farmers walks and deadlifts and these kinds of things. And I can almost guarantee that they will have maybe a better, but absolutely a shorter career. When you look at the grand-old personalities of golf, Player, Nicklaus, Palmer, they didn't lift weights. They respected their joints and they had the gift of a tuned, elastic body. This changes when you start doing those types of load-bearing exercies. You show me the last time a golfer did a squat. The answer is they don't. When you examine the golf swing for distance, 70% (on average) of the power comes from the trailing hip and external rotation. Absolutely not in the squat pattern. What you're doing is you load the knees and hips that have a finite amount. We're then creating a toughness in those tissues to bear a load and you're ruining the spring potential to store and recover elastic energy.

 

When you look at the discs in the spine, they are not ball-and-socket joints. The hips and shoulders are ball-and-socket joints and are made for fabulous rotation and force through the range of motion. Force times velocity is power. Your power joints are your hips and shoulders. If you generate power in your spine, we have a problem. The discs are actually collagen fibres that are held together with a ground substance. So in order to get movement now, you soften and adapt the ground substance holding the fibres together in the spine. Golfers need that mobility. So when you adapt a spine it will only adapt in one of two ways. You can loosen the collagen through mobility and train it to store and recovery elastic energy. In other words, optimize it's spring-like capacity. What you've now done is compromise it's ability to bear a load. So if you're going to deadlift, the extra pressure down the spine squeezes the nucleus inside the discs. However you are a golfer. You have adapted the ground substance between the fibres to be a bit lose, to give you the elastic mobility. Now those fibres will de-laminate when the pressure gets too high. 

 

We're seeing more golfers with more disc bulges, with more flattened discs, shortening their careers. You can't confuse the biology of the disc with high mobility elastic training and then heavy loading with a deadlift. It's biologically not possible, something has to give. That's one start.

 

If the hips become stiffer doing deadlifts and these kinds of exercises, now you are forcing the linkage to put more motion into the spine, stressing the discs further. When you measure the great ones, they have the anatomical gift of hip, internal, external rotation. I'm very concerned when I see golfers who bought into this idea of becoming stronger in squats. I know there are those who say "Well those golfers that we measure at elite level who can have more power-development in those moves, hit the golfball further". Well no kidding. But it wasn't that ability that allowed them to hit the ball further. It's just the more neurologically explosive you are as an athlete, but not strong, thats the funny paradox, of course you are going to hit the ball further. They are an associate, but not a cause-and-effect.

 

8 hours ago, GolfLug said:

 I do not believe for a second that lifting reasonable weights hurt anybody from a longevity POV, unless they were frequently locking joints in trying to lift just ungodly weights with poor form.  Even basketball players lift weights and they have some of the softest arms and wrists in motion. 

I think from everything I have researched the best combo is to focus on muscular pliability for speed (performance attribute) and enough core stability to support your speed. Really, just keep your joints from locking out. Honestly my money is on the new fangled combo training programs rather than just weights. I like what McGill says from that perspective.

For me, jury is out on the likes of Rory and Jason. It not unreasonable to think that their swings have a different dynamic balance even slightly. But that could also be because they are older and naturally filled out. Better or worse? I don't know, the answer is complex in the least.   

 

His argument is that combining the elastic movement of the golf swing, and elastic training, with lifting heavy weights, works against eachother and will affect the longevity of a golfer. Even if you don't lock joints and lift extreme weights. Arms and wrists are not really the issue here, but the spine.

 

I'm not saying to eliminate all kinds of exercises with weight, and I'm sure McGill doesn't either. It's primarily about loads that you apply to the spine which affects the discs and soft tissue in your back. That's the squat, deadlift, farmers walk etc. If you do a push-up, the spine is even in a horizontal position and there are very little compresion and shear forces. Pull-ups even do the opposite and decompresses the spine. He is also a firm believer in that we don't work the spine and muscles that stabilize it the same way we work other muscles. The chest and back muscles can be worked through pulling and pushing, but the muscles around the spine are meant to stabilize and support, not bear load. Which is why he says the sit-up is a terrible exercise that nobody should be doing. Many can probably do it without problem because they are genetically able to, but many will hurt themselves more. The irony is that strengthening the core is often prescribed to someone with back problems, and by doing sit-ups and rolling back extensions you might even make it worse. His recommended training program for a core does not involve bending of the spine at all, but rather keeping it in a somewhat neutral position while the supporting muscles are working.

 

We might not have enough data to make any statements on how a training regime affects the longevity of a golfer, but I certainly find it interesting. McGill does mention that they are seeing more golfers with back problems, though no data given, as this was a podcast.

[GolfLug]

8 hours ago, Zeph said:

 

Here's an excerpt from the video, where he addresses some of it:

 

 

His argument is that combining the elastic movement of the golf swing, and elastic training, with lifting heavy weights, works against eachother and will affect the longevity of a golfer. Even if you don't lock joints and lift extreme weights. Arms and wrists are not really the issue here, but the spine.

 

I'm not saying to eliminate all kinds of exercises with weight, and I'm sure McGill doesn't either. It's primarily about loads that you apply to the spine which affects the discs and soft tissue in your back. That's the squat, deadlift, farmers walk etc. If you do a push-up, the spine is even in a horizontal position and there are very little compresion and shear forces. Pull-ups even do the opposite and decompresses the spine. He is also a firm believer in that we don't work the spine and muscles that stabilize it the same way we work other muscles. The chest and back muscles can be worked through pulling and pushing, but the muscles around the spine are meant to stabilize and support, not bear load. Which is why he says the sit-up is a terrible exercise that nobody should be doing. Many can probably do it without problem because they are genetically able to, but many will hurt themselves more. The irony is that strengthening the core is often prescribed to someone with back problems, and by doing sit-ups and rolling back extensions you might even make it worse. His recommended training program for a core does not involve bending of the spine at all, but rather keeping it in a somewhat neutral position while the supporting muscles are working.

 

We might not have enough data to make any statements on how a training regime affects the longevity of a golfer, but I certainly find it interesting. McGill does mention that they are seeing more golfers with back problems, though no data given, as this was a podcast.

Very interesting points. Sorry, can't listen to the podcast at the moment. But so here's a fundamental question - why really train in any other form than swing a golf club? If additional unnatural loads damage joints - especially compression loads (it seems to make great sense that the spine was not designed to bear any more weight than what our anatomy weight subjects it too) why not just stick with a swinging a couple of hundred swings a day? It provides plenty of stretch loads and resulting stability demands one would need to be better. Swing a slightly lighter club and it will teach you more speed. Swing a slightly heavier club and it will build more stability. Do it couple of hundred times a day and you will build stamina. All incrementally so there a smooth curve. If one is worried about being lopsided, just work a left handed swing in there with your natural right- handedness (and vice versa..).

Heck it might be the best way to ensure that you certainly reach your golf specific genetic limit and never exceed it at the same time and if you don't reach it, then maybe it's because golf (or one's particular brand of golf) doesn't really need a superior engine.

I guess if you want to be the best hunter you can be, then, well, just hunt a lot.  

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by GolfLug

[Groucho Valentine]

Aside from squats (which is a good exercise for any sport) i would take it easy on the weights and focus more on flexibility (yoga/pilates) and body weight exercises for golf. 

[BaconNEggs]

I can't speak to enhancing performance or optimizing workouts for golf longevity, but it's an interesting topic.

My guess is that things that are aimed at improving practical strength/functioning are likely to be best for protecting against injury and improving performance. The first thing that comes to mind is bodyweight training (calisthenics), as to me this represents the most basic functional fitness. Also something focused on improving flexibility (e.g. yoga) would seem to be helpful. 

That's obviously very general. Depending on a person's goals and individual characteristics, some things might help more than others.

[billchao]

Don't lift weights. Lifting weights will cost you majors 😜

All kidding aside, I don't work out anymore, but if I did I would do yoga and plyometrics. A golfer needs to have a strong core and be explosive. 

[GolfLug]

12 hours ago, Zeph said:

 

Here's an excerpt from the video, where he addresses some of it:

 

 

His argument is that combining the elastic movement of the golf swing, and elastic training, with lifting heavy weights, works against eachother and will affect the longevity of a golfer. Even if you don't lock joints and lift extreme weights. Arms and wrists are not really the issue here, but the spine.

 

I'm not saying to eliminate all kinds of exercises with weight, and I'm sure McGill doesn't either. It's primarily about loads that you apply to the spine which affects the discs and soft tissue in your back. That's the squat, deadlift, farmers walk etc. If you do a push-up, the spine is even in a horizontal position and there are very little compresion and shear forces. Pull-ups even do the opposite and decompresses the spine. He is also a firm believer in that we don't work the spine and muscles that stabilize it the same way we work other muscles. The chest and back muscles can be worked through pulling and pushing, but the muscles around the spine are meant to stabilize and support, not bear load. Which is why he says the sit-up is a terrible exercise that nobody should be doing. Many can probably do it without problem because they are genetically able to, but many will hurt themselves more. The irony is that strengthening the core is often prescribed to someone with back problems, and by doing sit-ups and rolling back extensions you might even make it worse. His recommended training program for a core does not involve bending of the spine at all, but rather keeping it in a somewhat neutral position while the supporting muscles are working.

 

We might not have enough data to make any statements on how a training regime affects the longevity of a golfer, but I certainly find it interesting. McGill does mention that they are seeing more golfers with back problems, though no data given, as this was a podcast.

One other thing - other than heavy weights, there is a also a very simplistic reason as to how the spine get hurts - attempt to rotate faster through impact, i.e., faster than the rotational hip joint can thrust and rotate. In an all out effort, when the hips can't keep up or get out of sequence, the stability muscles of the spine are often called up on by the brain (especially during an occasional swing with poor sequence) to contribute towards the rotation, in turn abandoning their stability function leaving the spine vulnerable. Happens all the time. Has happened to me.  

I believe there is great merit in 'swinging within yourself' in terms of longevity. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by GolfLug

[Nail]

Interesting topic. I lift weights and have done for years. I only started playing golf last year. I have no intention of stopping either as i like being strong and looking relatively big. One thing i noticed in golf is i am longer than anyone i play with, I don't know if that is genetic speed or a result of the gym. 

I suppose i am a similar build to Brooks Koepka or someone like that,  I have only had one lesson but he said that I am way above average speed. 

I just hope after seeing this thread that i am not setting myself up for a bad back in the future

[NM Bruce]

While the article linked below isn't golf-specific, I think it makes some good points.

https://startingstrength.com/training/strength_is_not_specific

[nevets88]

I've been meaning to buy one of the video packages from Andrew Hannon. Anyone here already try his workout regimen? He has packages for warmup, golf, hips, etc..

https://linktr.ee/ando_pfs