Would Golf be Better or Worse if 12 Holes Had Become the Standard?

[iacas]

13 hours ago, gjunkie57 said:

I say 18 because i am a creature of habit. Sometimes I play nine and feel like something is missing.  

2 hours ago, CarlSpackler said:

No. I like golf the way it is.

Neither of those answer the question.

11 hours ago, CaseyD said:

You cant ask people what their opinion is and then say don’t think about yourself.

Yes, you can - the question asks if golf as a whole would be in a better place, not whether any one individual would like it more or play less golf or whatever.

11 hours ago, CaseyD said:

You yourself included your own bias towards liking the 12 hole idea because rounds would be faster which you are a fan of.

No, that's entirely incorrect. Golfers repeatedly cite "time to play" (along with cost) at the top of the list for why they don't play more golf. I was not considering my own bias - I can play four holes when I want, or nine (as I often do with my daughter), or 12 (the 12th at WW is right near the clubhouse)… I don't play for score very often and am most often just practicing with my kid. So I have no real bias here - I can skip holes, jump around the course, and play when I want.

I was considering golf as a whole. Golfers as a whole.

11 hours ago, CaseyD said:

But, you could possibly have seen more courses built causing less people at each course.

I think supply and demand would have worked pretty much the same as it did already.

11 hours ago, CaseyD said:

PGA tournaments would have smaller purses due to less TV/ Advertisment exposure due to shorter rounds and shorter tv time slots. But we wouldn’t really know how big purses could have been because we would only know 48 hole tournaments. 

You don't know that, either: ad cost per 30 seconds could be higher, and we already only get to see the leaders playing the back nine holes for most PGA Tour stops as it is. 12 holes played in 3 hours would let the TV stations show the entire round of the last few groups.

And you never know - the last day of a PGA Tour event might have a second cut to 24 players playing 24 holes that day, providing all the golf you could want to see.

[trparham]

What a great idea.  The time savings alone would be a dramatic improvement.

[boogielicious]

I played 12 today. The course was empty and I did 4 through 6 twice. It was nice. Also had time to work on my short game and sand shots. 

12 seems a nice length to play.

[CaseyD]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

You don't know that, either: ad cost per 30 seconds could be higher, and we already only get to see the leaders playing the back nine holes for most PGA Tour stops as it is. 12 holes played in 3 hours would let the TV stations show the entire round of the last few groups.

And you never know - the last day of a PGA Tour event might have a second cut to 24 players playing 24 holes that day, providing all the golf you could want to see.

Bro you are ate up. The only constant we can use is that rounds of golf would be shorter due to less holes. With everything else equal there would be less TV exposure. Now you’re going to speculate/ give your opinion that you know how the economy would have turned if gold would have turned out different 300 years ago?  But then tell other people they can’t speculate?  Wtf  

How about you just save us all the “debate” and tell us if it would have been better or not.  Then we can all run off and tell our friends that IACAS said golf would have been ___________ if it was 12 holes. 

4 hours ago, iacas said:

I think supply and demand would have worked pretty much the same as it did already.

 By the way that’s an opinion/ bias. You feel it would have worked out but you don’t know. Just like none of us know including you if golf would have been better.  You can’t answer your original question with facts, it’s all speculation/ opinion. 

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, CaseyD said:

Bro you are ate up.

Oy.

14 minutes ago, CaseyD said:

The only constant we can use is that rounds of golf would be shorter due to less holes.

Again… that's irrelevant if:

• Players play 24 on the weekend.
• They only show 12 holes of the players now.

And… tournament golf on TV is not "golf." It's a tiny fraction of "golf."

14 minutes ago, CaseyD said:

Now you’re going to speculate/ give your opinion that you know how the economy would have turned if gold would have turned out different 300 years ago?

I didn't do anything like that.

14 minutes ago, CaseyD said:

How about you just save us all the “debate” and tell us if it would have been better or not.  Then we can all run off and tell our friends that IACAS said golf would have been ___________ if it was 12 holes. 

How about this: rather than misunderstanding/misinterpreting something I write, you actually add something to the discussion?

I think golf would have been better off if it was 12 holes, for a variety of reasons, many of which I've shared and which are grounded in facts: less land, less yardage, less time, less cost.

But hey, if you want to make the ad hominem type attacks, have at it. It makes pretty clear you've got little to say.

14 minutes ago, CaseyD said:

By the way that’s an opinion/ bias.

No, it's not. It's how the law of supply and demand works. Those types of things tend to sort themselves out.

17 minutes ago, CaseyD said:

You can’t answer your original question with facts, it’s all speculation/ opinion. 

Nobody can. It's all speculation because the game did not evolve with a 12-hole standard.

But, it's possible to ground one's speculation in facts, as I feel I've done. And you've just attributed it to "bias" and said that there would be less golf to show on TV.

P.S. The professional game on TV is a tiny, tiny part of golf. It's not "golf" in general. I've never said that EVERY thing around golf would be better, I've just said that overall, I think golf would be better. And in posting this, I'm not conceding that pro golf on TV would be worse; it may very well be better. I haven't considered it much, because again, it's a negligible portion of "golf" as a whole.

[tehuti]

This discussion went way off the rails. I thought it was just an interesting topic. 🤔

Edited October 12, 2018 by tehuti
Typo

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, tehuti said:

This discussion went way off the rails. I thought it was just an interesting topic. 🤔

It still is/can be.

It just requires a little imagination.

I'm heading to my rec soccer game. It'll last 55 minutes or so, like many adult recreational activities that take less than five hours.

[CaseyD]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

 

You don't know that, either: ad cost per 30 seconds could be higher

So that’s not speculating that tv ad prices would be raised if golf was 12 holes? Hmmmmm ok. 

 

I agreed with with pretty much everything else, time savings, cost savings and I even answered that golf could have been even more popular due to affordability. Not sure how I didn’t answer or have any input. 

One could argue that as much land as golf courses tend to use up there are some very good examples of how those courses saved the land or beautified the land that wasn’t being used. 

[iacas]

Just now, CaseyD said:

So that’s not speculating that tv ad prices would be raised if golf was 12 holes? Hmmmmm ok.

I said "could be." So yeah, obviously that's speculating.

I also said I don't care much about TV coverage of pro golf - that's a tiny percentage of "golf."

Just now, CaseyD said:

One could argue that as much land as golf courses tend to use up there are some very good examples of how those courses saved the land or beautified the land that wasn’t being used. 

They could, sure.

[CaseyD]

40 minutes ago, iacas said:

I said "could be." So yeah, obviously that's speculating.

I also said I don't care much about TV coverage of pro golf - that's a tiny percentage of "golf."

They could, sure.

 But wait you just said you did no such thing?

 

And my input on tournament golf was the last thing of my original post and the shortest part so I too was putting little emphasis on it, but tournament golf is part of golf as a whole so it needed to be addressed as well. 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

I didn't do anything like that.

 

That was your reply to my calling out your speculating on ad prices. I know how much you like your quotes so I didn’t want to disappoint. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by CaseyD

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, CaseyD said:

 But wait you just said you did no such thing?

"the economy" != "advertising during pro golf"

3 minutes ago, CaseyD said:

And my input on tournament golf was the last thing of my original post and the shortest part so I too was putting little emphasis on it, but tournament golf is part of golf as a whole so it needed to be addressed as well. 

Negligible things don't have to be addressed, no.

[CaseyD]

Negligible?!?!?

I will agree the actual tournament golf/ televised golf is a small part of golf but the equipment we all buy is notand that’s where it is sold.  Ads  are what drives the equipment market. You don’t see golf equipment advertised during football or baseball or hockey etc. 

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

"the economy" != "advertising during pro golf"

 

Wow. Seriously. You were speculating that golf ads could cost more per 30 secs during speculated 12 hole golf rounds.  You need to change your user name to chubby checker. 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, CaseyD said:

Negligible?!?!?

Yep. PGA Tour golf is a negligible portion of "golf" as a whole.

1 minute ago, CaseyD said:

I will agree the actual tournament golf/ televised golf is a small part of golf but the equipment we all buy is notand that’s where it is sold.

Oh brother. Too off topic to bother responding to, but… no. It's sold in lots of places by lots of means.

1 minute ago, CaseyD said:

Wow. Seriously. You were speculating that golf ads could cost more per 30 secs during speculated 12 hole golf rounds.  You need to change your user name to chubby checker. 

No, I said that you could not be certain about what you were speculating about: that TV times would be less, and thus advertising would be less, and thus purses would go down… etc.

You don't know that. For all you know, shorter TV times and 12-hole rounds might increase the audience. Larger audience = more advertising $$$ per 30-second spot. For all you know, smaller numbers of ads might lead to larger purses. Look at the Masters - they have about four minutes of ads an hour. They do all right with their broadcast deals. (No, I'm not comparing every PGA Tour stop to The Masters; just pointing out that "# of ads" isn't always directly proportional to ad revenue or purse size.)

You also used the words "the economy". Ads during a pro golf event on TV does not rise to the level of "the economy."

---

You're itching to argue, and that's fine, but we're well off the topic now, and so that's where it ends.

I think that if golf had always been 12 holes, it'd be in a better place now for a number of reasons. Agree, disagree, whatever. But we'll stick to the general topic now.

[CaseyD]

Like I said way earlier I think golf could have been more popular. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by CaseyD

[cutchemist42]

Is there any way 12 could become "official"? I never played as a kid but are junior events like junior baseball which is reduced to 6 or 7 innings?

[Michael]

On 10/10/2018 at 10:18 AM, hespeler said:

Would you mind expounding a bit on that?  30-40 years is not a long time.  I agree that golf will continue to suffer in the modern world but 30-40 years to non-existence as an outdoor sport?

Participation is currently decreasing 2-4% per year.  From 2016-2018,  the closure rate is 150-200 courses per year.   New course to closed ratio stands at 1:8.  Adidas golf revenue fell 66% from 2016-2018.  Adidas tried to sell some of their golf brands (Adams, Ashworth, ...) for 1.5 billion, which was considered a fire sale.  They got $425 million.  The world's largest golf retailer went bankrupt.  

Obesity is on the rise; video sports are taking over; golf is relatively more expensive.  Real estate is more expensive.  Consider the price per golfer per acre and compare that to other sports.  New variants of golf are being invented - not because golf itself is more popular.  Even lovers of the game complain about the playing time.  The county club model of bringing kids to play golf/tennis/swimming all day is almost dead.  Many courses really don't have a real course pro anymore.  

Due to increasing hurricane and typhoon intensity, any course near certain parts of the oceans (like the entire US eastern seaboard) will be un-maintainable.   Expect to see grass diseases that will defy attempts for a cure.  Air conditioned carts on artificial grass will be a temporary solution only for the aging well-to-do.  

I expect 1 or 2 two extreme advances in technology will make current courses obsolete very quickly, even for average players.  Nevermind that these advances will violate USGA/R&A rules; people will be happy to ignore those rules.  Any hole under 300 yards will be a par 3, partly because the hole size will vary between 6 to 12 inches in diameter.   Some courses will try and survive by shortening to 4000 yards - par 30-40.  Thus, the game seen on TV will be on a select few courses that no one else can play.  There will debates about which variant of golf is really "golf".  

More money will be made by turning that land into a Amazon-like warehouse, of which 25,000 more will be needed.

 

[mvmac]

Funny how I was just talking with a couple people about this the other day. If you take a step back, try to take an objective look, to me golf just seems ridiculous with how much land it takes up and how long a round can be. Imagine inventing golf in 2018 and trying to sell the idea to a land developer or a bank you're going to start this sport where one hole is four football fields long and there's going to be eighteen of them. Oh yeah and it's going to take at least four hours to complete the activity!

I think going to 12 holes would be a great move.

[dennyjones]

4 hours ago, mvmac said:

I think going to 12 holes would be a great move.

Let's start a push to change golf.   As easily as they changed the rules for 2019, the golf authorities may open to change......

 

....na...good ole' boys club.  

I do believe golf would be in a better place if initially it were only 12 holes instead of 18 but I could still a move to change it from 18 to 12.