What would you do? Player signs for correct total, but one hole is incorrect

[colin007]

5 hours ago, ColinL said:

Not one of my better analogies!   I was simply wondering how you could be content with someone winning a golf tournament by returning a score that was a stroke fewer than he/she actually took.   

 To me, he shot what he shot. 

 Let me try to illustrate it this way. Let's say you and I have a long distance golf rivalry. Every Saturday morning we play on our respective courses, and then we text each other afterwords to tell each other what we shot. Let's say on one Saturday I shoot an 85 and you shoot an 87, but you text me that you shot an 84. did you actually beat me? Does texting me that you shot an 84 change what you actually shot? I may go home thinking that you beat me, but did you actually in reality beat me? 

That's probably a terrible analogy as well.....Lol

[iacas]

43 minutes ago, colin007 said:

That's probably a terrible analogy as well.....Lol

It is, because in golf, "what you shot" is determined by 18 individual numbers, not the number you write down in the "Total" box.

That's the rule.

And before anyone comes back with "yeah but you're just saying the rules are the rules, and because of that they're all perfect and good, but they're not actually," none of you can come up with a better one here. The rule regarding writing down 18 scores is as simple as it gets, as clear as it gets, and as fair as it gets. Thus, it's as good as it gets.

And, like @Rulesman said above… how many hole scores can you get wrong before it's too many? The only logical answer is one.

[colin007]

34 minutes ago, iacas said:

It is, because in golf, "what you shot" is determined by 18 individual numbers, not the number you write down in the "Total" box.

That's the rule.

And before anyone comes back with "yeah but you're just saying the rules are the rules, and because of that they're all perfect and good, but they're not actually," none of you can come up with a better one here. The rule regarding writing down 18 scores is as simple as it gets, as clear as it gets, and as fair as it gets. Thus, it's as good as it gets.

And, like @Rulesman said above… how many hole scores can you get wrong before it's too many? The only logical answer is one.

Look, when someone asks you what you shot, what do you tell them? Do you say 68 or do you say 4+3+5+6+… ? I guess that's all I'm saying. What did the man shoot.

Edited September 8, 2018 by colin007
Spelling

[iacas]

Just now, colin007 said:

Look, when someone asks you what you shot, what do you tell them? Do you say 68 or do you save 4+3+5+6+… ? I guess that's all I'm saying. What did the man shoot.

He shot the sum total of 18 individual scores.

This is about the Rules of the game, not how things work in a casual setting when you ask your buddy what he shot. We all know that nobody goes "4 4 5 4 3 4 4 5 6 …" (though they'll often tell you about 90% of their shots if you let them) when you say "what'd you shoot today?"

But for the Rules, that's how it has to work, and that's the best way for it to work. Per the rules, he was DQed, and a good and conscientious, just, and fair committee would have DQed the player on the spot.

[Fourputt]

51 minutes ago, colin007 said:

Look, when someone asks you what you shot, what do you tell them? Do you say 68 or do you say 4+3+5+6+… ? I guess that's all I'm saying. What did the man shoot.

 

This has nothing to do with what you might say in casual conversation.  It's about the rules of the game.  The rule says "X", so you do "X".  If you accidentally or intentionally do "Y" instead, you have breached the rule.  Since each rule has a consequence attached, based on the possible advantage which could gained by a breach, you have incurred whatever penalty might be appropriate according to the nature of that rule. 

In this case the advantage to be gained could literally be the difference between winning the competition or finishing out of the money.  Thus the penalty must be severe enough to reflect that potentiality.  DQ is the only penalty which can simply and succinctly cover all of the possible advantages to be gained by noncompliance.  

This is such an easy one to get right.  Your skill or experience level shouldn't have any effect on your compliance with this rule.  Anyone in a serious competition (basically any competition played under the rules) should be taking steps right from the start to cover himself on this.  Keep your own score, whether on a separate card, or on the marker's strip of the "official" card of the player for whom you are marking.  I've played in such tournaments since 1989, and I learned to do this during the first couple of stroke play tournaments in which I participated.  I always mark my score immediately after I mark for my fellow competitor.  I compare what I wrote down to what my marker wrote in the clubhouse after we finish, and discuss with him any discrepancies, and he does the same with me.  Only after that does the card get signed and returned to the committee.

[GolfLug]

Golf scoring rules are tough and punish even the smallest typo type errors which seems harsh. I get it. But consider this - the score that you put down on the card is literally the only representation of what happened during actual play. 

I like what @Hardspoonsuggested and consider the case of @Big C ' club tourney. Play on though. Just not in competition as its a fun event.

Competition is pointless if not equitable. In golf even the unintentional honest typos make it unequitable. Literally. 

Would I support a change of rules different penalty like docking double the number of stroked but not a full DQ? Maybe. But that's not the topic here.

Edited September 8, 2018 by GolfLug

[iacas]

@GolfLug, the penalty being so severe is part of what helps virtually guarantee people get it right.

I do not support the idea of dumbing down or catering to the “everyone gets a trophy, who does it really hurt, that’s not fair” crowd.

It’s not a difficult rule to follow either.

[GolfLug]

49 minutes ago, iacas said:

@GolfLug, the penalty being so severe is part of what helps virtually guarantee people get it right.

Yes, I know. And I agreed with the DQ outcome in this case since that is the rule, however unpleasant. Please don't give me the 'trophy for everyone' bs. Where did I say or even imply that? I have literally said that it is NOT victimless even if via a honest mistake. Looking the other way is WRONG and it does hurt the competition. 

I do think it ironic that all the player had to do is lie and say it was an adding mistake. They would not only have avoided the DQ but actually enjoyed a higher placement. You don't think there are folks who lie through their teeth and enjoy the good life? But thats a different discussion and not the topic here.

 

 

[iacas]

37 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Please don't give me the 'trophy for everyone' bs. Where did I say or even imply that? I have literally said that it is NOT victimless even if via a honest mistake.

I didn’t say you did. I simply likened your desire to soften a rule that would be worse off to the way many “trophies for all” types seem to see things.

37 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I do think it ironic that all the player had to do is lie and say it was an adding mistake. They would not only have avoided the DQ but actually enjoyed a higher placement.

Got nothing to do with this. That’s a blatant cheat.

Those people by definition attempt to operate outside the Rules. It’s not accidental.

[ColinL]

If  the requirement in the rules was to total your scores with a DQ penalty if you added them up wrongly to a score less that it should be,  I bet there would be many clamouring that this was far too harsh a punishment for a simple arithmetical error, that the rules are stupid and that this is the sort of thing that puts people off taking up the game ....

A mistake in recording the score at one hole  or a mistake in adding up?  Take your pick.  Have an opinion about it, but just remember what the Rules require.

[iacas]

So today, one of my players shot 79. He noticed that on hole 18 (he started on #2), his scorer had written "4" instead of "5", Oddly he had "39" and "79" written down in the total boxes.

My player told him to change the 4 to a 5 on 18, and seeing the kid erase something and write something else down, signed the card.

Then an hour later, my kid wondered why he was given a 78 on GolfStat when he shot 79. I asked for and got a picture of his scorecard, and it was somewhat obvious that instead of changing the 4 to a 5, the kid had changed the 39 and 79 to a 38 and 78.

I called the coach and made sure he was DQed. This cost us several strokes as we had to count the fifth score. All because my player was careless and signed for the wrong score on a single hole, even though twice he had tried to get it corrected.

Simple rule, and the only way to write the rule in a way that make sense, IMO.

DQ. Even though it won't affect our standing in the tournament at all.