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Why Would I Not Play the Longest, Most Forgiving Irons?


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I'm trying to understand why better players don't use game improvement irons.  The general reasons you hear are that better players like workability and feel over forgiveness.  Well, I'm a better player, and I don't understand why that would be the case. I am aiming at the center of the green anywhere outside about 135 yards, and generally trying to hit it straight about 95% of the time.  It isn't like better players don't still miss hit the ball. So, someone convince me I should keep my semi-players irons instead of going to game improvement. 

The reason I'm asking is because I'm considering getting new irons.  I have Z765s (cavity back player's iron) right now, and I'm thinking about getting a few extra yards and some extra forgiveness by going to the new Z585 game improvement irons.  I don't care about looks, I want lower scores.  This comparison from mygolfspy of the 65 series shows my point: https://mygolfspy.com/tested-2017-srixon-z-series-irons/

565 is game improvement, 765 is cavity back player's iron, 965 is a blade. 

image.thumb.png.a600792d6a0363500ccd03fef38ff578.png

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image.thumb.png.a5aa0e2928690848c630d52be2cf1b66.png

The game improvement iron is more accurate in every case, and longer in two of the 3 cases (although it does have slightly lower launch and spin).

Can you all provide some thoughts on this?  Does it make sense for me to go to a game improvement iron?

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27 minutes ago, Unforgiven93 said:

(although it does have slightly lower launch and spin).

I'm guessing this may actually be why. Better players (especially tour level) want their ball to hold the green. They so often hit the green that gaining some extra yards are probably less important than having proper spin amounts to hold the green. Just a guess.

Have you considered a combo set? I have a set of Srixon clubs which are Z565 4-6 and Z765 7-PW.

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8 minutes ago, Unforgiven93 said:

I'm trying to understand why better players don't use game improvement irons.  The general reasons you hear are that better players like workability and feel over forgiveness.  Well, I'm a better player, and I don't understand why that would be the case. I am aiming at the center of the green anywhere outside about 135 yards, and generally trying to hit it straight about 95% of the time.  It isn't like better players don't still miss hit the ball. So, someone convince me I should keep my semi-players irons instead of going to game improvement.

More and more PGA tour players are going with GI longer irons.

Also, it's getting optimal flight numbers. GI clubs are all about higher launch, lower spin, strong lofts. They are extremely hard to flight the ball lower. Also, in robotic testing, muscleback irons are more accurate with distance control and dispersion left and right.

It's not really the ability to work the ball left or right, but to control the height of the shot and get a tighter dispersion. Better players hit the sweetspot more often. Why do you need a lot of the GI tech?

3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I'm guessing this may actually be why. Better players (especially tour level) want their ball to hold the green. They so often hit the green that gaining some extra yards are probably less important than having proper spin amounts to hold the green. Just a guess.

Height matters more than spin for full iron shots. Spin matters more for distance wedges and pitching.

I've hit the green with a driver before and backed the ball up 1 FT. The ball probably had less than 2000 rpm of spin on it at impact. It probably had a pretty good decent angle.

31 minutes ago, Unforgiven93 said:

don't care about looks, I want lower scores.  This comparison from mygolfspy of the 65 series shows my point: https://mygolfspy.com/tested-2017-srixon-z-series-irons/

Looks can matter a lot. I hate clubs that are chunky and have a lot of offset. I also like my long irons to have some size to them.

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First off, I wish I was a +1.6 like you.

Second, I always say Play what you like, like what you play.

Third, if you are willing to give up workability for distance then go for it.

I am interested as to what all the good golfers will chime in with.  Gonna get some popcorn for this! 

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3 minutes ago, Vinny Cap said:

I am interested as to what all the good golfers will chime in with.  Gonna get some popcorn for this! 

Not many snobby golf clubs guys here. Though I could be wrong. I have found that to be the case in other threads.

 

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38 minutes ago, Unforgiven93 said:

I'm trying to understand why better players don't use game improvement irons.  The general reasons you hear are that better players like workability and feel over forgiveness.  Well, I'm a better player, and I don't understand why that would be the case. I am aiming at the center of the green anywhere outside about 135 yards, and generally trying to hit it straight about 95% of the time.  It isn't like better players don't still miss hit the ball. So, someone convince me I should keep my semi-players irons instead of going to game improvement. 

The reason I'm asking is because I'm considering getting new irons.  I have Z765s (cavity back player's iron) right now, and I'm thinking about getting a few extra yards and some extra forgiveness by going to the new Z585 game improvement irons.  I don't care about looks, I want lower scores.  This comparison from mygolfspy of the 65 series shows my point: https://mygolfspy.com/tested-2017-srixon-z-series-irons/

565 is game improvement, 765 is cavity back player's iron, 965 is a blade. 

image.thumb.png.a600792d6a0363500ccd03fef38ff578.png

image.thumb.png.3bd0fc052d095bfd4a21910f3f491d88.png

image.thumb.png.a5aa0e2928690848c630d52be2cf1b66.png

The game improvement iron is more accurate in every case, and longer in two of the 3 cases (although it does have slightly lower launch and spin).

Can you all provide some thoughts on this?  Does it make sense for me to go to a game improvement iron?

I have recently switched from a "players iron" to a game improvement iron (Ping G). And I'm happy that I did. I can still work the ball with the G iron (not quite as much) but it's so easy to hit that I can't understand why I did not switch to game improvement clubs sooner. I also am usually just trying to hit it in the middle of the green so workability isn't as big an issue for me as I would assume it is for a tour guy. What surprised me was that I really didn't hit the new irons a whole lot higher. On top of that I gained about a 1/2 club more distance, and I absolutely love them on mis-hits. I am hitting more greens and not working as hard to do it. I play with a guy who uses Mizuno blades (and claims he always will) but usually once or twice a round he hits one of my irons and says "why the hell don't I just switch to some of these clubs"? 

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For the most part play whatever you want. I like to have feel, not because I am awesome at golf, but because I am not awesome. I like to know that I hit it correctly. GI are vague in that department  and as I have said in other threads, I enjoy a good ball striking round vs score low due outside efforts. Plus they are often too big and clunky for my eyes.

However you could probably talk me into a game improve driver that guaranteed fairway hits....

"My ball is on top of a rock in the hazard, do I get some sort of relief?"

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8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Not many snobby golf clubs guys here. Though I could be wrong. I have found that to be the case in other threads.

 

Maybe I worded it wrong but I was looking for a good discussion on the pros and cons from good golfers.  Kind of like the info in your first post.

I am not that good and just go out for fun of it with my friends and son but love reading all the good info posted on here.

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18 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

More and more PGA tour players are going with GI longer irons.

Also, it's getting optimal flight numbers. GI clubs are all about higher launch, lower spin, strong lofts. They are extremely hard to flight the ball lower. Also, in robotic testing, muscleback irons are more accurate with distance control and dispersion left and right.

It's not really the ability to work the ball left or right, but to control the height of the shot and get a tighter dispersion. Better players hit the sweetspot more often. Why do you need a lot of the GI tech?

Do you have a link to the robotic testing study? I'd love to see that. I hate making decisions based on opinion, I love data.  Which is why I liked mygolfspy so much, since they try to be unbiased and data driven. 

I also found another review from golfwrx where they used two guys who swing with similar speed to me, which is perfect: http://www.golfwrx.com/395250/review-srixon-z965-z765-and-z565-irons/

image.png.9289221f4f8741864422996d0788139b.png

image.png.c08b43ea3c5c1e03990f11105b26e8be.png

image.png.a0df8f9a22c09e270142b0a7a01113c7.png

 

Unfortunately they don't have any accuracy data like mygolfspy did.  

 

11 minutes ago, Bucki1968 said:

I have recently switched from a "players iron" to a game improvement iron (Ping G). And I'm happy that I did. I can still work the ball with the G iron (not quite as much) but it's so easy to hit that I can't understand why I did not switch to game improvement clubs sooner. I also am usually just trying to hit it in the middle of the green so workability isn't as big an issue for me as I would assume it is for a tour guy. What surprised me was that I really didn't hit the new irons a whole lot higher. On top of that I gained about a 1/2 club more distance, and I absolutely love them on mis-hits. I am hitting more greens and not working as hard to do it. I play with a guy who uses Mizuno blades (and claims he always will) but usually once or twice a round he hits one of my irons and says "why the hell don't I just switch to some of these clubs"? 

This is what I'm hoping my reaction will be if I decide to switch... Thanks for chiming in, exactly the experience I was hoping to hear about - regardless of the results. 

srixon.png.c29104d99ab6ca6ecb927e9dd97b26f1.png    Z785 Driver 10.5° Tour AD BB 7x    |    F65 4W Tour AD TP 7x    |    Z765 4-PW Dynamic Gold X100 AMT    |     Z-Star Ball

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I have always believed that you should play with the most forgiving clubs you can be happy with. I don't necessarily believe all the info about inconsistencies in distance and accuracy on GI clubs. Would need to look at some numbers again but the fact that the GI clubs go further by itself will lead to more dispersion even though the percentages may be similar when factoring in the extra length versus players clubs. Other factors should also be considered when looking at those accuracy numbers, ie shaft weight, launch characteristics. 

Like others have said, it come down to launch angle. GI irons want to hit it high and that is usually not needed by tour level players. Really more specifically younger good players. As we get older and swing slows down, a little help with launch is not a bad thing. Most good players don't have issues with the shorter and mid irons, but 3 through 5 or 6 irons may need some help with height. 

The only argument I will give for smaller heads is they also have smaller soles which allows you to get to the ball easier on those uneven lies. That is a big deal for many tour level players because they play on many uneven lies.

All this is to say I might look at a mixed set with more forgiving longer clubs and less forgiving short irons, depending on what your ball flight looks like with the long and short irons. Just make sure you keep the shafts all the same for consistency, and match up the other specs. Lofts might take some time to figure out based on head design. Would not just go off loft numbers. Probably would require some bending after the fact or a full set fitting.

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Ever since the mid 80s, when I got some Eye 2s, I have always GI irons. I have no trouble working the ball, and I want to get the most out of a miss as possible. I know when I hit a poor one, or a great one. They give me all the feedback I need. I seems a no brainer to me, play with clubs that can help you score the best.

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My answers? Control. Feel. Looks.

I don't like how GI clubs look, feel, or perform.

1 hour ago, Unforgiven93 said:

Do you have a link to the robotic testing study? I'd love to see that. I hate making decisions based on opinion, I love data.  Which is why I liked mygolfspy so much, since they try to be unbiased and data driven. 

https://clubsg.skygolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/5-3722-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html

Too much to quote, but there you go.

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I currently have game improvement irons, and I'm going to get new irons soon. I'm looking for something that's a little less game improvement than the Rocketbladez I have right now. Three issues I have that I'm looking to fix (in order of importance):

  1. Inconsistent gapping. I have 10 yard gaps from PW-8, and then they move up to 15 yards from 7-4. I would prefer tighter gaps.
  2. Ball flight control. I really have to make significant adjustments to bring the ball flight down on my irons. It's not something that I'll do often, but I want to have more ability to do it.
  3. Occasional rocket balls. I will sometimes get a ball that goes 10+ yards further than I'm expecting, and that's not just me hitting the sweet spot. Best example from this year is when I hit a shot I was expecting to go 215 at the maximum go 235. Doesn't happen a ton, but it's annoying when it does.

That said, I still want some help with forgiveness in my irons. I don't want a slight mishit to lose 10 yards. This is why I'm not really interesting in looking at blades or players club. Something in between is what I'm looking for.

-- Daniel

In my bag: :callaway: Paradym :callaway: Epic Flash 3.5W (16 degrees)

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3 minutes ago, iacas said:

My answers? Control. Feel. Looks.

I don't like how GI clubs look, feel, or perform.

https://clubsg.skygolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/5-3722-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html

Too much to quote, but there you go.

Thanks for the article.  So you agree with their conclusion then? That well struck shots are significantly more accurate on player's irons than GI irons? Looks I understand, nothing looks as good as a blade. What don't you like about the feel? 

Someone needs to test this more in depth.  Take a group of scratch golfers, 10 handicap, and 20 handicap, set them up on Trackman or equivalent, hit all the different types of irons and see which types come out the most accurate/consistent for each handicap level. 

From the article you linked, blades would be significantly more accurate on well struck shots.  The testers that saw significantly more accuracy in the mygolfspy test of the Srixon irons were spread from 0-15 handicap, so there is a chance that the higher handicappers skewed the accuracy data to say the GI irons were more accurate even if the 0 handicap actually hit the cavity back player's or blade more accurately. 

 

 

srixon.png.c29104d99ab6ca6ecb927e9dd97b26f1.png    Z785 Driver 10.5° Tour AD BB 7x    |    F65 4W Tour AD TP 7x    |    Z765 4-PW Dynamic Gold X100 AMT    |     Z-Star Ball

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25 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I currently have game improvement irons, and I'm going to get new irons soon. I'm looking for something that's a little less game improvement than the Rocketbladez I have right now. Three issues I have that I'm looking to fix (in order of importance):

  1. Inconsistent gapping. I have 10 yard gaps from PW-8, and then they move up to 15 yards from 7-4. I would prefer tighter gaps.
  2. Ball flight control. I really have to make significant adjustments to bring the ball flight down on my irons. It's not something that I'll do often, but I want to have more ability to do it.
  3. Occasional rocket balls. I will sometimes get a ball that goes 10+ yards further than I'm expecting, and that's not just me hitting the sweet spot. Best example from this year is when I hit a shot I was expecting to go 215 at the maximum go 235. Doesn't happen a ton, but it's annoying when it does.

That said, I still want some help with forgiveness in my irons. I don't want a slight mishit to lose 10 yards. This is why I'm not really interesting in looking at blades or players club. Something in between is what I'm looking for.

Those seem like good gaps to me. You can't really make them all 10 yard gaps or you won't get out there long enough at the longer clubs.  It seems like having smaller gaps on shorter, more precise shots would be more important.  No justification for that though, just my feeling. On trackman my carry numbers were 100, 113, 125, 135, 145, 160, 175, 191, 208, 220, 235, 260, 280 currently.  It seems pretty ideal for me. If I could carry more clubs I would make those gaps 10 yards, but I can't, so I won't. 

Edit: meant to put this in my previous response as an edit instead of double posting, oops. 

Edited by Unforgiven93
Explaining why I double posted
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srixon.png.c29104d99ab6ca6ecb927e9dd97b26f1.png    Z785 Driver 10.5° Tour AD BB 7x    |    F65 4W Tour AD TP 7x    |    Z765 4-PW Dynamic Gold X100 AMT    |     Z-Star Ball

TM.png.36c3c24d72a4ac809b0def631452f3ba.png    M3 4H HZRDUS Black    |    Spider Tour Putter

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GI irons strikes can feel significantly different depending on impact speed. Most GI irons have composite structures. At certain speeds of impact the pieces don't always deliver a 'harmonious' blow and it can feel very rattly or clunky. Almost like striking the table with two spoons together. This is real. Nothing to do with good player/bad player. 

If your impact hits the harmonious range of the composite structure, GI irons can feel fantastic. But like everything else as related to golf equipment that is individualistic. I have a GI type 2 iron and feels hollow and rattly compared to my 17 deg hybrid. But the ball flight makes it a very acceptable trade.

Edited by GolfLug

Vishal S.

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12 minutes ago, Unforgiven93 said:

Those seem like good gaps to me. You can't really make them all 10 yard gaps or you won't get out there long enough at the longer clubs.  It seems like having smaller gaps on shorter, more precise shots would be more important.  No justification for that though, just my feeling. On trackman my carry numbers were 100, 113, 125, 135, 145, 160, 175, 191, 208, 220, 235, 260, 280 currently.  It seems pretty ideal for me. If I could carry more clubs I would make those gaps 10 yards, but I can't, so I won't.  

Edit: meant to put this in my previous response as an edit instead of double posting, oops.  

 

Note that everything I'm saying here with distances is at altitude, so take the actual numbers with a grain of salt.

I play my 8 iron to go 160-165 and my 7 iron to go 180-185. I end up with a lot of shots with that tweener 170-175 range where I have to do something other than a stock shot or live with being short or long. That's really the range I would like to be tighter. Past that, I'm fine with 15 yard gaps.

-- Daniel

In my bag: :callaway: Paradym :callaway: Epic Flash 3.5W (16 degrees)

:callaway: Rogue Pro 3-PW :edel: SMS Wedges - V-Grind (48, 54, 58):edel: Putter

 :aimpoint:

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10 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Note that everything I'm saying here with distances is at altitude, so take the actual numbers with a grain of salt.

I play my 8 iron to go 160-165 and my 7 iron to go 180-185. I end up with a lot of shots with that tweener 170-175 range where I have to do something other than a stock shot or live with being short or long. That's really the range I would like to be tighter. Past that, I'm fine with 15 yard gaps.

That is an annoying gap for sure. 20 yards right in a common distance to the hole.  Also, looking at the distances I posted, I forgot a club... add a 200 between the 191 and 208.  😆

srixon.png.c29104d99ab6ca6ecb927e9dd97b26f1.png    Z785 Driver 10.5° Tour AD BB 7x    |    F65 4W Tour AD TP 7x    |    Z765 4-PW Dynamic Gold X100 AMT    |     Z-Star Ball

TM.png.36c3c24d72a4ac809b0def631452f3ba.png    M3 4H HZRDUS Black    |    Spider Tour Putter

titleist.png.c92d01bf6404c1675a5e518a7447f2c6.png  Vokey SM7 50° 55° 60° Dynamic Gold S400 Tour Issue Black

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    • Wordle 1,013 4/6* ⬛🟦🟦⬛⬛ ⬛🟦⬛🟦🟦 🟧⬛🟧🟧🟧 🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧 par is good after a double bogey yesterday.
    • I did read the fine print tonight. It said replace with “similar features & function”.  8 yeas ago my purchase had features that today are available on the lower end models and the current version of my model has more “bells & whistles” than what I got 8 years ago.  So I am thinking they honored the agreement and I can’t argue the offer. since getting a credit for the full purchase price all I am really out over the past 8 years was the cost of the extended warranty, which was less than a low end  treadmill would have cost me. now the question is which model to replace with.  I’ll stay with Nordic Track or I forfeit the $1,463 credit so I will get Nordic Track.  And they honored the warranty and were not hard to work with which is a plus.
    • Generally speaking, extended warranties are a terrible deal and should almost always be avoided. They are a huge profit center for the companies that offer them, which should tell you almost everything you need to know about how much value most consumers get when purchasing them.  This is correct, and the old adage applies - only buy insurance when you can't afford the loss. This usually doesn't apply to most consumer goods.  To your second question, no I don't believe the offer is fair. They are replacing it, but it is not being replaced at "no cost to you". Since the amount being disputed (over $500) is non-trivial, I would probably push the issue. Don't waste your time on the phone with a customer service agent or a supervisor. They have probably given you all they have the authority to do. Rather, I would look at the terms of your agreement and specifically legal disputes. The odds are you probably agreed to binding arbitration in the event of a dispute. The agreement will outline what steps need to be followed, but it will probably look something like this.  1. Mail the Nordic Track legal department outlining your dispute and indicate you are not satisfied with the resolution offered.  2. Open up a case with the AAA (American Arbitration Association), along with the required documentation. 3. Wait about 4-5 weeks for a case to be opened - at which point someone from Nordic Track's legal department will offer to give you the new model at no cost to you.  They certainly don't want to spend the time and energy to fight you over $500. 4. Enjoy your new Nordic Track at no cost to you. I recently entered binding arbitration against a fairly large and well known company that screwed me over and refused to make it right. In my demand letter, I made a pretty sizeable request that included compensation for my time and frustration. Once it hit their legal department, they cut me a check - no questions asked. It was far cheaper to settle with me than to send their legal team to defend them in the arbitration.
    • I never thought of looking at it on multiple purchases like you said.  Yes, the extended may help me on 1 or 2 items but not the other 5 or 6.
    • Day 84 - Forgot to post yesterday, but I did some more chipping/pitching.    Back/neck were feeling better today, so I did a much overdue Stack session. 
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