John Senden - Driver Snaps, Stroke Counts

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Of course he did. Anything he would say otherwise truth or not won't change a thing and he will simply come across as a whiner. 

I think that if he had said he truly tried to alter the path of the club to not hit the ball, he'd have not been charged a stroke.

But had he said that, he'd have been lying, because biomechanically we would know it was a lie. Once you get to ~A5 your body literally can't send a signal from your brain to the muscles fast enough to change anything pre-impact. And that's just the time it takes for the signal to move; it doesn't account for forming a thought and then initiating the message.

In other words… he didn't alter his swing pre-impact.

53 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

So now you support the rule change leveling the playing field from an enforcement stand point of view? Seems like your version of 'trophy for everyone'.

I don't even know what you're talking about here. Applying the same standard of "proof" or "evidence" to everyone is nothing like "trophy for everyone." Nothing.

The game doesn't need to add back in whether HD or slow-mo video are available; as I noted above they've gone in the opposite direction, and their reasons for doing that make sense.

53 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Dumb? - hah, why? I don't think they should have made it THAT standard. Didn't like it then, don't like it now.

I think it's dumb to have a different standard based on whether someone is on HD or slow-mo camera or not. The Rules should - and generally do - seek to apply the same standard where possible. (Note/Example: Tiger has bigger galleries than other players, and thus doesn't play in the same "standard" conditions as a less popular player. But this, unlike the HD/Slow-Mo stuff, cannot reasonably be covered under the Rules of the game. So they don't try to legislate gallery size; they legislate the stuff they can, like whether something is visible to the naked eye or not.)

53 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Ha ha. Yes, I have more than once - and not the first time on slo-mo either. Heck have myself snapped my driver head at Pinehurst few years ago in an almost similar fashion. I have a post in my 'My Swing' thread. My golf bag had fallen off the cart on the previous hole and must have 'kinked' the shaft.

Not sure I understand the point. What's that gotta do with Senden's normal finish compared to this one?

The point is that the follow through is very often NOT proof that the player tried to do something pre-impact. When I've seen players finish a swing where the head snaps off, even though it happens at/after impact, their follow-through is altered. The altered follow-through doesn't say anything about anything pre-impact because until at/after impact, the player was attempting to hit the ball.

Specifically: Senden's "unusual" follow through is NOT proof that he tried to change his swing pre-impact. His swing was altered on the follow-through in the same way that Phil's swing was altered in the video you posted, or the way I've seen golfers finish hip-high when their iron head snaps off, even though they're NOT playing a hip-high punch shot.

His finish isn't proof of anything except that something odd happened earlier. And again, biomechanically, he didn't have the time. Not even close.

53 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Senden said in his interview that it was too late to stop the club but didn't say he didn't try to stop - implying he did.

Given when it snapped, no, he didn't pre-impact. It's literally impossible.

[iacas]

BTW, the rear view slow-mo:

The shaft breaks just after A5. It's actually somewhat common for the club to break near the grip, though usually when I've seen it it's just UNDER the grip or at least where your hands rest on the grip.

Also… Senden should be glad (if one can be glad about anything here) that he didn't hit the ball with the club after he'd dropped it.

[iacas]

Here's the article for RulesGeeks:

John Senden’s Club Breaks Mid-Downswing | Rules Geeks

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In the 2018 Australian PGA Championship, this happened: John Senden is teeing off, and from later videos (see below) we can see that the club snaps between his hands, under the grip, mid-downswing.…

Enjoy (and subscribe!).

[iacas]

BTW, in 2019…

Quote

Any time a player’s ball is inside the teeing area, the player may move the ball to another spot within the teeing area, and may play it from a tee without penalty.

For example, a player makes his or her first stroke from the teeing area, barely making contact with the ball, and the ball either comes to rest on the ground within the teeing area or remains on the tee.

Since the ball is in the teeing area, the player may play the ball as it lies or, even though the ball is in play, may move the ball to any other spot within the teeing area and play from there without penalty. The player may also place the ball on atee or adjust the height of the tee the ball is resting on.

From an Interpretation "6.2b(6)/1 – BallThat Comes to Rest inTeeingArea Does Not Have to Be Played as It Lies"

[rehmwa]

20 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

That decision specifically says that any doubt about the players intent is resolved against the player.

that's an odd one.  golf is self policing, I would have thought the philosophy would be if there is any doubt, then the player makes his own call

14 hours ago, iacas said:

I think that if he had said he truly tried to alter the path of the club to not hit the ball, he'd have not been charged a stroke.

like this  ^^

In this case, he just took it and considered it a weird situation....play on

everybody wins

[Missouri Swede]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

BTW, in 2019…

From an Interpretation "6.2b(6)/1 – BallThat Comes to Rest inTeeingArea Does Not Have to Be Played as It Lies"

Interesting.  I note that the teeing area is (still) defined two club-lengths deep from the front of the tee markers.  So if you tee up right at the markers and the ball rolls just in front of the markers, it's no longer in the teeing area, if I understand correctly.

I wonder if people will try to say that the whole mown area is what is meant.

[MacDutch]

So what if Senden had hit the ball with his broken and now unconfirming club? I mean, not as a second shot, but during the downswing of his first attempt.

Edited November 30, 2018 by MacDutch

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, MacDutch said:

So what if Senden had hit the ball with his broken and now unconfirming club? I mean, not as a second shot, but during the downswing of his first attempt.

Quote

14/5

 

Club Breaks During Downswing; Swing Completed But Misses Ball; Clubhead Falls and Moves Ball

Q.The shaft of a player's club broke during his downswing. The player continued his swing and missed the ball. However, the clubhead fell and moved the ball. What is the ruling?

A.The stroke counts but the player incurs no penalty. The ball must be played as it lies.

This is the closest decision.  When he started the swing, the club was conforming, so no penalty based on the club.  However, the ball was moved as a consequence of the swing, so the stroke counts.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, rehmwa said:

that's an odd one.  golf is self policing, I would have thought the philosophy would be if there is any doubt, then the player makes his own call

It doesn't apply here, because it's written out that it doesn't apply.

And it makes sense, too, because we have the evidence of what the player actually DID. If it looked like he tried to avoid contact, it gives weight to the idea that he tried to. If it doesn't look like he did… he might be either lying or unaware of when in the tenth of a second the downswing lasts he tried.

Basically, unless you stop your downswing or very clearly Kevin Na whiff on it, you made a stroke, period, regardless of what you think you did.

1 hour ago, Missouri Swede said:

Interesting.  I note that the teeing area is (still) defined two club-lengths deep from the front of the tee markers.  So if you tee up right at the markers and the ball rolls just in front of the markers, it's no longer in the teeing area, if I understand correctly.

I wonder if people will try to say that the whole mown area is what is meant.

"Teeing area" is a defined term. It's one of the five defined areas of the course.

1 hour ago, MacDutch said:

So what if Senden had hit the ball with his broken and now unconfirming club? I mean, not as a second shot, but during the downswing of his first attempt.

Stroke made and the club is non-conforming after the shot, not mid-swing.

[rehmwa]

50 minutes ago, iacas said:

It doesn't apply here, because it's written out that it doesn't apply.

circular point there and not really related to my comment - I don't disagree with the interpretation, I just note it's an exception to the normal idea of self policing that the player is the only one that knows is he tried to abort.  (I can see it explicitly written that way because it's exceptional)

The rest of your response I have no disagreement that typically you should have clear visible evidence that the "player intent vs reaction time vs visible evidence" should all be apparent.

However, except for the 'liar liar' point, it's not in conflict with the idea of honorable players.  Player voluntarily takes the penalty, and everyone that saw the stroke would say "yeah, I didn't observe an effort to abort in time".

18 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Of course he did. Anything he would say otherwise truth or not won't change a thing and he will simply come across as a whiner. 

wow, way to give the benefit of the doubt to the professional golfer - perhaps he's simply honorable

[iacas]

27 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

circular point there and not really related to my comment - I don't disagree with the interpretation, I just note it's an exception to the normal idea of self policing that the player is the only one that knows is he tried to abort.  (I can see it explicitly written that way because it's exceptional)

I disagree. There are some situations where a player can't reasonably be expected to "self police" because they can't reasonably know what happened. Like this one.

[GolfLug]

26 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

wow, way to give the benefit of the doubt to the professional golfer - perhaps he's simply honorable

When I made that comment last night...

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Basically, unless you stop your downswing or very clearly Kevin Na whiff on it, you made a stroke, period, regardless of what you think you did.

..^^this was the part I was missing. 

[rehmwa]

38 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

When I made that comment last night...

..^^this was the part I was missing. 

ahhhh - I owe you a beer then

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

I disagree. There are some situations where a player can't reasonably be expected to "self police" because they can't reasonably know what happened. Like this one.

I'd say we've achieved agreement, not disagree.  As you note - there's specific exceptions to the general concept.  And that's why it's specifically clarified in the official interpretations.

I do appreciate that it's not from a position of "players will lie", but actually from a position of "sometimes they can't tell"

Edited November 30, 2018 by rehmwa