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48 minutes ago, klineka said:

I never said your opinion was wrong. I said my opinion is backed up with facts and evidence that can be applied to a large number of golfers on a large number of golf courses.

Your opinion is based on a much smaller number of golfers and golf courses that likely are not an accurate representation of the majority of golf courses that exist.

My opinion is based on broad facts, while your opinion is based on narrow guesstimates. (Example, the 95% stat you referenced isn't actually a fact unless you know and recorded exactly how many times in every round you played in over the past 2 years that both you and every single playing partner went for it/didnt go for it) (Even then it's a super narrow data point because it is likely only accounting for less than 50 different golf courses)

Again.  Very very narrow scope. Lets say you played 50 rounds per year, and played with 3 new people every round with no repeat playing partners (unlikely). Over 2 years that's only 300 golfers you will have personally witnessed. That is a VERY small number when compared to the tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of people that play golf in the US alone.

Hell I could probably find at least a couple thousand people if not more who still believe that "drive for show putt for dough" and that "putting is the most important part of your game"  are accurate (clearly they arent, and there is data and books that prove that those arent right)

Just because I can find a bunch of people to believe something doesnt automatically make them right. That's silly.

Like I said before, I encourage you to try to find and share facts that support your opinion that include a majority of golfers on a majority of courses, not "facts" that are based on a couple hundred golfers on a small number of courses.

And pick up a copy of Lowest Score Wins. It goes into much more detail than I am capable of explaining here.

Please describe how you played the each of the par 5s in your latest round of golf.

Example: 510 yards

Drive: _______ yards in the fairway/rough

Approach Shot:  ______ yards with _____ club and it landed ________.

Next shot: ________________

Score on the hole:______

 

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I think this is going off a bit of a tangent. I believe the topic is more about the benefits of reaching a par 5 in two when you are capable of the distance and you are weighing in the factors( pros/cons) of the decision thus; when you factor the pros are you under or overestimating them?

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22 minutes ago, BushwoodCC said:

Please describe how you played the each of the par 5s in your latest round of golf.

Example: 510 yards

Drive: _______ yards in the fairway/rough

Approach Shot:  ______ yards with _____ club and it landed ________.

Next shot: ________________

Score on the hole:______

 

How I played each of the par 5s in my last round doesnt mean anything by itself. Its too small of a sample size to draw any conclusions from, quite literally the point I have been trying to make to you all day!!!

But if you want to see how I play par 5s, feel free to look at my GameGolf profile by clicking the red icon below my username. 

I dont make perfect decisions, and as you will see especially if you go back over the summer, I did lay up with 6 and 7 irons, but I did so due to a weakness with 3 wood and hybrid, knowing I was costing myself shots by having that glaring weakness, which I've improved upon as you can see in my last 3 rounds where I hit 3 iron or 3 wood for almost all of my 2nd shots.

Like I said though, I'm too small of a sample size to matter for anything.

Edited by klineka

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21 minutes ago, BushwoodCC said:

Please describe how you played the each of the par 5s in your latest round of golf.

Stop, man. What would a ridiculously small sample size illustrate? Nothing.

I go for almost every par five I can (when I'm not in trouble already), or get as close as I can, and I'm averaging 4.73.

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1 minute ago, iacas said:

Stop, man. What would a ridiculously small sample size illustrate? Nothing.

It would demonstrate whether the people espousing a certain strategy  are indeed practicing what they preach. 

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16 minutes ago, BushwoodCC said:

It would demonstrate whether the people espousing a certain strategy  are indeed practicing what they preach. 

You could just check out his GG profile...

it does look like he tries to get the ball as close as he can looking at his last few rounds. Which again is a small sample size, but is in line with what he says he does. 

Edited by HJJ003

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16 minutes ago, HJJ003 said:

You could just check out his GG profile...

Yup. And like I said a lot of the time when I didnt go for it over the summer it was because of a glaring weakness in my own personal game, even though I knew what I was giving up as a result of not going for it.

As you can see in my more recent rounds, I have been trying to advance the ball as far as I can even though I'm still not super consistent with the 3 wood/3 iron, it certainly has paid off at times like at Dormie Club where I smoked a 3 iron like 230yds to pin high and had an easy up and down for a birdie.

The one time over my last 3 rounds where it didnt pay off was the 9th at Mid South, where I had 190 yds to the green downhill for my second shot with water short. My typical miss is a fade/slice, so I played my normal 5 iron shot aimed at the middle of the green, and unfortunately I hit a straight pull to the left into the water and was only a yard or so short of reaching the green. Distance was plenty had it been straight or my normal fade shot. If I was faced with that same shot again, I wouldnt change anything, I'm always going to go for that shot from that yardage. The straight pull was just an outlier against my pattern. It was an execution error not a decision making error.

Edited by klineka

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27 minutes ago, BushwoodCC said:

It would demonstrate whether the people espousing a certain strategy  are indeed practicing what they preach. 

Buy a copy of LSW, man. Give it an honest reading. You'll be able to sell it to someone else if you don't think it's worth it… but it's worth it.

I mean, you could find a chunk of the info on LSW here on TST, but you'd have to spend a lot of time looking around and knowing what to search for. Time is money.

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4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Buy a copy of LSW, man. Give it an honest reading. You'll be able to sell it to someone else if you don't think it's worth it… but it's worth it.

I mean, you could find a chunk of the info on LSW here on TST, but you'd have to spend a lot of time looking around and knowing what to search for. Time is money.

Just bought a copy on my kindle-looking forward to reading it. 

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19 minutes ago, BushwoodCC said:

It would demonstrate whether the people espousing a certain strategy  are indeed practicing what they preach. 

Let me put it this way: so far this year in 2018 there's been one time I didn't go for the green in the 2, and it was on this hole:

Hole 12.JPG

1 is where the tee box was and 2 is where my tee shot went (a 3 iron since I didn't know where was safe to hit as it was my first time playing the hole). The blue outline shows where the water hazards on this hole are located, and the purple dot is a tree that my blue outline covered up.

Going for it from the position I was at was riskier than I wanted to play because there was both a water hazard AND a tree directly between myself and the green, when I still had about 240 left. I don't know about you, but for me a 3-iron up over a tree and a water hazard isn't exactly a high percentage shot for me (or most golfers).

A drive up towards the cart path (or past the bunkers) or a 3-wood to a position between the bunkers and the left water hazard are the only 2 tee shots that would give you an angle to go for it on this hole. It's a bad hole, in my opinion, because it makes it pretty much impossible to reach the hole in 2 unless you hit some incredibly high risk shots (rather than having some risk but still making it possible to reach the green in 2).

This is a case where the risks of going for it in 2 clearly outweigh the benefits. Every other time I played this year, however, I went for the green of all par 5's in 2 or at least gave it my best effort to get as close as possible if I knew I'd be unlikely to reach all the way there. If you care to look at my par 5 scoring on my Game Golf profile you'll see I average better than par on the par 5's that I play.

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25 minutes ago, HJJ003 said:

You could just check out his GG profile...

it does look like he tries to get the ball as close as he can looking at his last few rounds. Which again is a small sample size, but is in line with what he says he does. 

Will have to do that / sort of new here so I have not looked up anyone’s GG profile

I meant from Amazon - sorry “kindle” is kind of my default response... 

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@iacas , @klineka

Thank you both for detailed posts, if I can fairly summarise your points, I think they'd be as follows

  • 3h isn't a much more difficult shot to hit than 6i
  • 6i (or ones reliable clubs) will sometimes go wrong, maybe more often than anticipated
  • Penalty shots come into play less often than imagined
  • 20y from a poorer lie has a better expectation than 50 from a better lie. 
  • Proximity to the hole matters, not just avoiding hazards. 

There's a lot going on here, and while some of these points seem logical, it's the overall combination and probability of each that matters. What makes me unconvinced is that the conclusion doesn't match my own game - yes, I know , sample size of 1, but bear with me. I play a ton of solo rounds where I a/b test these types of things, and going for it leads to blowout holes too often. Stuff goes wrong when I layup too, but less often and rarely to the same degree. It's not like I haven't tried both approaches many times. I see similar things with other players I play with, although I pay less attention to what they are doing. 

Now, it's possible that I don't understand my own game as well as I think I do (though I think this unlikely - I devote a lot of attention to understanding it) , and it's also possible that I'm not typical of an average golfer. Either way, there's a disconnect between what you are saying and my observations ,and while I'm always open to changing my viewpoint, I'm reluctant to do so on the basis of PGA tour stats, because I don't feel they are representative of average golfers. 

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2 hours ago, Moxley said:

I play a ton of solo rounds where I a/b test these types of things, and going for it leads to blowout holes too often.

What exactly is the cause of the blowup hole?  It's important to ask several iterations of "why?".  You generally don't need to ask "why" more than 5 times to get to the origin of a problem.  Example:

The hole went to hell after I went for it...Why?  Landed in a hazard...Why? Hit a worm burner into the creek 50 yards ahead...why?  I suck at hitting my FW off the turf...practice with the FW.

OR

The hole went to hell after I went for it...why? Duffed the 40 yard pitch I had left into a nasty bunker...why?  Decelerated on the downswing...why?  I can't gauge my partial wedges...practice partial wedges.

Not doubting your experience, but just providing a different point of view.  Addressing the root cause of the blowups is going to help more than just saying screw it, I'm laying up.  The second example is from personal experience early on where I used to follow the silly notion of "leaving myself a full swing into the green" on par 5s to avoid those "tricky" in-between ranges.

 

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4 hours ago, Moxley said:

I'm reluctant to do so on the basis of PGA tour stats

Those stats are consistent at all skill levels. In fact they’re wider the worse the player you’re measuring.

Consistent in that 20 yards from the rough beats 60 in the fairway.

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5 hours ago, Moxley said:

Now, it's possible that I don't understand my own game as well as I think I do (though I think this unlikely - I devote a lot of attention to understanding it) , and it's also possible that I'm not typical of an average golfer. Either way, there's a disconnect between what you are saying and my observations ,and while I'm always open to changing my viewpoint, I'm reluctant to do so on the basis of PGA tour stats, because I don't feel they are representative of average golfers. 

Man, I wish I had a dollar for every person I have heard this from. Not just you @Moxley but I hear this from people at the course all the time. They see the statistics, statistics created from literally tens of thousands of rounds from thousands of golfers of all levels of ability. The statistics are very clear in what they show. And yet, the skeptics all say the same thing...they are the outlier, they are the exception to the rule, their games are just different from everyone else's. I just have to wonder, if all these skeptics golf games don't align with the statistics, then where are all these statistics coming from?

Basically, people are horrible at analyzing their own golf games. Probably one of the reasons that handicaps have remained stagnant for the last 20 years, well that and the fact that golf is hard. So, for all you skeptics out there, all you outliers, those statistics, they pertain to you too. Yes they do. You are not a unicorn. You are not special. You are just like the rest of us. Sorry thats just the way it is.

 

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32 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

Probably one of the reasons that handicaps have remained stagnant for the last 20 years

They haven't. Stop repeating this myth.

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5 minutes ago, iacas said:

They haven't. Stop repeating this myth.

Noted, lord knows I hate myths. You know I almost researched it before I posted.

 

Edited by NM Golf

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9 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

Noted, lord knows I hate myths. You know I almost researched it before I posted.

It's been 12 hours, so… I'll pick the next topic!

 

Underrated or Overrated #2 - The Mental Game

Remember, it's generally speaking, not for you or any one individual golfer.

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