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Overrated/Underrated (Golf) Topic

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19 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I think it has to be less than a shot. A 70's golfer is simply better than an 80's golfer. The only way I could possibly see it being more is if you were to say a 70's golfer used his/her brain to build a better practice schedule/training regimen etc... But you and I both know that isn't what you mean by mental game. 

I said 4% of the difference, simply because I took 1% from Driving, Approach Shots, Short Game, and Putting, and John Graham (who has spent plenty of time on the PGA Tour as well as having taught thousands of average golfers) said, "Oh, no, 4% is way too high."

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Here's a post I wrote in the Mental Game topic that explains a lot, IMO, about human nature and why we so strongly believe in "the mental game": 

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37 minutes ago, HJJ003 said:

Overrated/Underrated #3: Arnold Palmer

Overrated, and I’m saying that as a PA guy. Both professionally and as a human being.

No doubt he did a lot in coming along when golf was getting on TV. He’s underrated there, as he is for his role setting up IMG (obviously that was mostly Mark).

But on the bigger things, overrated. Weak fields, never won a PGA, tossed away his US Open at Oakmont, and was a poor husband and father.

To be clear I’m not judging nor do I care about the personal stuff.

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50 minutes ago, HJJ003 said:

Overrated/Underrated #3: Arnold Palmer

I would say overrated with no inside knowledge at all. He's just put on such a high pedestal its impossible for him to be underrated.

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4 hours ago, HJJ003 said:

Overrated/Underrated #3: Arnold Palmer

I would say overrated.

Arnold Palmer helped drive the golf industry in much the same way as Tiger Woods pushed golf into the modern era, but I think golf would've still had other influences and rivalries that would've had a similar or identical effect even if he hadn't come along. Arnold Palmer was the face of golf as it moved toward televised events and his role as the charismatic battler on the course was effective but could've been filled by other golfers from the time period during/immediately after his time. Jack Nicklaus in 1962 with his debut win in the U.S. Open over Arnold Palmer served as a changing of the guard and set up a rivalry, but Jack could've also developed rivalries with golfers such as Billy Casper (51 wins to Arnold's 62, similar time period), Sam Snead to some extent as a changing of the guard (last win for Snead was 1965), and the other well known player's of Jack's extended time such as Tom Watson, Gene Littler, Lee Trevino, and Gary Player among others.

Arnold Palmer was a dominant golfer who competed at the tail end of Sam Snead's career and beginning of Jack Nicklaus' career, but it would've also been possible for golf to take off in popularity slight later on with the rise of Jack Nicklaus himself and the change from Snead's era to Jack's. The rivalry between Jack and Palmer served as a catalyst for golf's popularity then, but it could've just as easily been a similar situation to Tiger Woods with Jack Nicklaus driving the sport by being even more dominant over the other not quite as great but personable players of his time. Arnold had the adoration of the fans, but other dominant golfer's could've filled that role by being a dominant force with the primary effect being that the popularity of golf was slightly delayed.

Prior to Tiger Woods I would've said that golf's development and expansion would've required multiple greats at the same time (Sam Snead was a contemporary to Hogan and Nelson), but Tiger showed that you can grow the game tremendously with a supremely dominant golfer on top surrounding by a supporting cast of solid players with individual character (in Tiger's case these were Phil, Vijay, Sergio, Davis Love III, and Ernie). Arnold was certainly a key player in how golf developed, but I think that the game would've still moved forwards tremendously without his contributions even if it proceeded in a different fashion. 

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6 hours ago, HJJ003 said:

Overrated/Underrated #3: Arnold Palmer

All my Uncles from my Mom's side of the family (PA guys) are spinning in their graves! Arnie was their hero. Being from Ohio, Jack was mine! That made watching golf on TV a lively enterprise at times. But, I have to agree, overrated.

Arnie just happened to be at the right place at the right time. He was handsome, photogenic, and looked good in a sweater. Plus, he was damned fine golfer. 

But a dispassionate look at his career leaves you wondering why he didn't win more majors. Admittedly, he won some in spectacular fashion like the 1960 US Open at Cherry Hills. I think Palmer's swashbuckling, go for broke style captured a lot of golf fan's imaginations, Who knows? Maybe that style contributed to his not winning more majors. 

As for the 1962 US Open at Oakmont that Palmer lost to the Tour rookie Nicklaus, I once read a story that said while the two were getting dressed in the locker room, Palmer said to Nicklaus, "So, you want to split it?" According to the story it was commonplace for two players in a Monday playoff to agree to split their winnings. That way they both went home with a decent amount of money, and could enjoy a leisurely round of golf. Nicklaus thought about it for a few seconds and replied, "Nah, let's play it straight". To which Palmer replied, "I figured that's what you'd say."

I can't read a man's mind, but if this is true, was Palmer looking for an easy way out? He was the veteran, Nicklaus was the rookie. Or, did Palmer merely see the writing on the wall? As an amateur, Nicklaus finished second to Palmer at Cherry Hills. 

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5 hours ago, HJJ003 said:

Overrated/Underrated #3: Arnold Palmer

Underrated. Just to be contrary. 

1962-arnold-palmer-poses-trophy-e1500569

Arnold Palmer would have been 89 years old on Monday. Golfweek is  marking his birthday by taking a look back at his legendary career and legacy. Here is a look at Palmer’s golf...

95 career victories 

Edited by Beastie

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Another point of discussion is that Arnold Palmer won the easiest major (the Masters) for more than half of his major championship wins while never winning the major with the greatest depth of field (the PGA Championship). @iacas had a good post in the past going into depth comparing the strength of the fields in the various majors which can back this statement up, but for the life of me I can't find it right now (unless it was just a fever dream). 

Palmer was a very likable character and undoubtedly a great ambassador for the game, but in terms of his golf and increasing the popularity of it on television I believe that Nicklaus would've been able to fill his role well and would've given golf an immediate publicity boost at the start of his career by winning the U.S. Open as an amateur, a first since 1933. Having a single dominant golfer with a meteoric rise (as Nicklaus would've had with such a US Open win) and solid background contenders is now a proven formula for increasing the game's popularity and that's how it likely would've played out without Palmer on the tour.

That said, I feel like Palmer is slightly underrated for his role in defining the major championships as we know them today. It was Palmer who originally set forth the idea of the modern grand slam after winning the Masters and U.S. Open in the 1960 season (remarking that winning The Open and the PGA Championship would be a "grand slam of his own" to rival Bobby Jones' achievement in 1930). Until then the Western Open as well as the North and South Open (US events) were seen by many US-based golfers to be equally important to the traditional majors and the British PGA Matchplay Championship was as important over in Europe as the PGA Championship in the US. Having one of the most popular figureheads for the sport announce a goal like that publicly would certainly have influenced the then-amateur Jack Nicklaus who had just come off a narrow defeat from Palmer himself at the U.S. Open, likely leading (in part) to Jack's emphasis of these tournaments throughout his career.

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17 hours ago, HJJ003 said:

Overrated/Underrated #3: Arnold Palmer

Overrated as a player in a sense that he was a step below Woods/Nicklaus/Hogan/Snead/Jones/Hagen as the dominant player of his generation. His impact on golf off the course in terms of bringing golfers to a higher exposure level via ads and TV personality was not overrated. The only comment I have on his other off-course stuff is golfers today are held to a much higher standard than he was for his personal indiscretions.

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OK, I'm confused. How do we get the box with topic in red to appear in the reply box? I thought quoting the post would do it, but all I get is the reply text below the box with the topic. Trying to play by the rules here and have tried several different things, but no go.

Anyway, boogielicious' reply above caused several things to come to mind. I picked up a book on Palmer out of bargain bin somewhere. It was basically a collection of photographs by Walter Iooss of SI, with a smattering of text by John Feinstein. 

Feinstein's main assertion was that while it's obvious that Palmer was nowhere near the greatest golfer of all time, he might be the most important. Some of the evidence offered was, as stated above, Palmer's role in popularizing golf as the Tour entered the TV years. Also the fact that the PGA changed it's rules as to who was a senior to make room for Palmer on the Senior (now Champions) Tour. Another was that without Palmer's involvement, there might not be a Golf Channel.

In both instances, Palmer went to every banquet, mixer, cocktail party and speaking engagement. He was still involved in popularizing the game. 

There was one other item that made me wonder what responses there might be if we asked Tour pros of that time and a little later. The instance was when Arnie made the cut at his own tournament, the Bay Hill Invitational. As soon as he knew, Peter Jacobsen (who was still on the Tour) drove to the nearest supermarket with a bakery to get a cake big enough for maybe 100 people to present to Arnie the next morning. The bakery manager said the earliest he could do it was the next afternoon, so Jacobsen went to the store manager who said, "Wait a minute, this is for Arnie? I'll have it for you tonight!"

They presented the cake to Arnie the next morning, and he proceeded to stand by that cake and cut a piece for everyone who wanted one. 

Yes, he has his warts as we all do. But he did a hell of a lot for the game. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

OK, I'm confused. How do we get the box with topic in red to appear in the reply box? I thought quoting the post would do it, but all I get is the reply text below the box with the topic. Trying to play by the rules here and have tried several different things, but no go.

Quote the original post with the new topic. Works 100% of the time, every time.

On 12/8/2018 at 2:04 PM, HJJ003 said:

Overrated/Underrated #3: Arnold Palmer

Like that.

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On 12/8/2018 at 11:04 AM, HJJ003 said:

Overrated/Underrated #3: Arnold Palmer

Overrated playing career. Didn't win the career slam, didn't perform well against Nicklaus, didn't win a major after he was 34.

Love Arnie BTW but his record is his record.

His swing is underrated. People don't give it enough credit because of the followthrough but he did a lot of good things with his address and pivot.

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On 12/8/2018 at 2:04 PM, HJJ003 said:

Overrated/Underrated #3: Arnold Palmer

I'm going with overrated also. Iacas...sounds like your a little more familiar with him than most people. I used to work in the golf business in the Orlando area and I always thought that some of the "Army" might be a little disappointed in the guy if they knew of some of the off the course activities. I personally don't care about that, and he was one of the nicest guys you could meet at the 19th hole and just listen/talk too. I just always thought that his playing record was not as good as it could have been. I too would not put him in the Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Tiger Woods category but just below based on his playing record. I also think that he gets a little too much credit for "inventing" the modern PGA tour as far as TV and money. Just my opinion. 

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30 minutes ago, Bucki1968 said:

I'm going with overrated also. Iacas...sounds like your a little more familiar with him than most people. I used to work in the golf business in the Orlando area and I always thought that some of the "Army" might be a little disappointed in the guy if they knew of some of the off the course activities. I personally don't care about that, and he was one of the nicest guys you could meet at the 19th hole and just listen/talk too. I just always thought that his playing record was not as good as it could have been. I too would not put him in the Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Tiger Woods category but just below based on his playing record. I also think that he gets a little too much credit for "inventing" the modern PGA tour as far as TV and money. Just my opinion. 

I'm asking this because I just don't know. Who had more off-course indiscretions Arnold or Tiger? 

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54 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I'm asking this because I just don't know. Who had more off-course indiscretions Arnold or Tiger? 

I think the only two people who could answer that are those two. And I don't see much value in going down this road…

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4 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think the only two people who could answer that are those two. And I don't see much value in going down this road…

Fair enough, I just keep reading posts about Arnie's overrated vs underrated referencing his off-course indiscretions. I'm old enough to remember Arnie playing and I don't remember hearing anything about off-course issues. I suppose I could use google and read up on it. 

Edited by ChetlovesMer

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1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Fair enough, I just keep reading posts about Arnie's overrated vs underrated referencing his off-course indiscretions. I'm old enough to remember Arnie playing and I don't remember hearing anything about off-course issues. I suppose I could use google and read up on it. 

The media was not the same then as it is now.

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