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Lihu

Human Nature Not Quite as Good as We Thought?

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The article below describes us as mostly vain, self centered individuals.

https://aeon.co/ideas/the-bad-news-on-human-nature-in-10-findings-from-psychology

First off, we enjoy watching other people's misery (think slapstick comedy).

Quote

We experience Schadenfreude (pleasure at another person’s distress) by the age of four, according to a study from 2013. That sense is heightened if the child perceives that the person deserves the distress. A more recent study found that, by age six, children will pay to watch an antisocial puppet being hit, rather than spending the money on stickers.

 

 

Here's the interesting one...

Quote

We are moral hypocrites. It pays to be wary of those who are the quickest and loudest in condemning the moral failings of others – the chances are that moral preachers are as guilty themselves, but take a far lighter view of their own transgressions. In one study, researchers found that people rated the exact same selfish behaviour (giving themselves the quicker and easier of two experimental tasks on offer) as being far less fair when perpetuated by others. Similarly, there is a long-studied phenomenon known as actor-observer asymmetry, which in part describes our tendency to attribute other people’s bad deeds, such as our partner’s infidelities, to their character, while attributing the same deeds performed by ourselves to the situation at hand. These self-serving double standards could even explain the common feeling that incivility is on the increase – recent research shows that we view the same acts of rudeness far more harshly when they are committed by strangers than by our friends or ourselves.

3

It kind of applies to how many of us play golf and in general following the rules. I think many of us think we score more accurately and play by the rules, while most other people don't. Thoughts?

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There is no way a four year old can spell Schadenfreude. :-P

It is kind of sad really. I think it also depends on if you experienced the other end and your reaction. Some will react that they hated the feeling and wouldn't do it to others and some will retaliate.

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14 hours ago, Lihu said:

First off, we enjoy watching other people's misery (think slapstick comedy).

I think you have it incorrect in the analogy here,

Quote

When misfortune befalls another, humans may feel distress, leading to a motivation to escape. When such misfortune is perceived as justified, however, it may be experienced as rewarding and lead to motivation to witness the misfortune....

Chimpanzees and six-year-olds showed a preference for watching punishment of the antisocial agent. An additional control experiment in chimpanzees suggests that these results cannot be attributed to more generic factors such as scene coherence or informational value seeking. This indicates that both six-year-olds and chimpanzees have a motivation to watch deserved punishment enacted.

The big take away here is the use of the term "antisocial agent." Basically, we do not mind the misfortune of others if we think it is justified in a way that benefits the society we are part of. This is a common trend through out human society. We tend to get rid of people we deem a threat to the society we have built up. This preserves the stability of the society.

I think with slapstick humor, we know its a comedy and get enjoyment out of it through laughter. that sort of enjoyment might be something a bit darker.

14 hours ago, Lihu said:

These self-serving double standards could even explain the common feeling that incivility is on the increase – recent research shows that we view the same acts of rudeness far more harshly when they are committed by strangers than by our friends or ourselves.

These self-serving double standards make sense. They are a protection mechanism for society. If you consider that society is just a tight grouping of friends and family, then you obviously would have a double standard. Why would you help a stranger who has never shown the ability to be a good contributor to your society group versus helping someone you know is important to your society group? It doesn't matter if they committed the same sort of rudeness or infraction.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Lihu said:

Here's the interesting one...

It kind of applies to how many of us play golf and in general following the rules. I think many of us think we score more accurately and play by the rules, while most other people don't. Thoughts?

I don't know about the whole we like to see others suffer aspect of this post. However, I'd like to comment on the playing by the rules thing. I like to think that my fellow man is at least trying to follow the rules. There are of course exceptions, but I think this falls under three categories. 

Category 1: My regular guys: We play by the rules. We play a tournament together each year where cash and bragging rights are on the line. So, we look at the rest of the year as an opportunity to "practice how we play." I trust these guys completely to call a penalty on themselves even if none of the rest of us see it. The tournament we play has been being held for over 25 years. You do not get invited back if you are caught cheating or bending the rules. 

Category 2: City League: In theory City League should be played by the rules. I can tell you I adhere to them. I also give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it. There was this one guy who would always cheat in City League. We all knew it. Even the guys on his team knew it. He was relatively famous in the league. Everyone watched him like a hawk and still had to call him out periodically. Here's the punchline: He was a pastor at a local church!

Category 3: Random people I'm paired up with when I "just show up" at the course. I lot of folks don't play be the rules. A lot of folks don't even know most of the rules. I couldn't care less what rules they follow. I just assume the groups they normally play in have their own "house rules" and they are following them as best they can. All I really care is are they polite company? Do they play at a reasonable pace? 

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2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

There is no way a four year old can spell Schadenfreude. :-P

Unless they’re parents are language professors in Germany 😂

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

It is kind of sad really. I think it also depends on if you experienced the other end and your reaction. Some will react that they hated the feeling and wouldn't do it to others and some will retaliate.

It might be also just watching other people make the same mistake you either made or could have made but thought about it a bit.

I don’t really remember watching slapstick comedy when I was a young kid in Taiwan, but then again my grandparents weren’t exactly humorous people either 🤪

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Aren't we all selfish by design, rooted in self preservation and all? From what I have read, selflessness is simply social conditioning and proportional to size of our pre-frontal cortex.

The only phenomenon I have never fully understood is rubber necking an accident. There is no pleasure or real pain in the experience and does not seem tied to fight or flight. It's just weird. 

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3 hours ago, GolfLug said:

The only phenomenon I have never fully understood is rubber necking an accident. There is no pleasure or real pain in the experience and does not seem tied to fight or flight. It's just weird. 

Ironically, the cause of 20% of accidents in Pasadena area 🙈

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3 hours ago, GolfLug said:

The only phenomenon I have never fully understood is rubber necking an accident. There is no pleasure or real pain in the experience and does not seem tied to fight or flight. It's just weird. 

There was a fight at school yesterday.   It was scary how many kids rushed to see the carnage.    There was no weapon thankfully but it would have been scary to have that many kids rush to a scene and been exposed to something more serious than a fist fight.   

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I honestly can't imagine why anyone is surprised by this. Right from the first post we have an example of youngsters who like seeing an "antisocial" puppet being beaten up. I don't know how old all of you are, but there used to be things calls "Punch & Judy Shows". These puppet shows featured a character called Punch (from Punchinello), who would beat the crap out of the other characters in the show with a wooden club. The experiment above seems like an offshoot of this phenomenon.

As far as moral hypocrisy goes, remember Shakespeare's admonition. "Methinks thou doth protest too much!" 

And for the fight at school and students coming to watch, what else is new?! Back when I was in grade school, the word went around that two guys had a major beef with each other, and would have it out at the local library after school. The entire student body of the 7th and 8th grades turned out! Of course someone noticed the commotion and called the cops! When they showed up, we scatter like chaff in the wind! There were no weapons of course, such things were just not countenanced back then. This was back in the mid-60's. 

And if that not far enough back for you, I'll tell you a story my Mom told me. When I was just a toddler, she was helping my GrandDad clean out some cupboards in the pantry when she came across some brass knuckles way up high on a top shelf. She took them to her Father and said, "Pap! What are these?" He told my Mom that she was old enough to hear the story. 

Back when my Grandpa was courting my Grandma (in the early 1900's), you did NOT go out on "dates". The man would show up at the house of his heart's desire dressed in a suit and tie. You would sit in the parlor with your intended and her parents and engage in conversation. Light refreshments might be served. And, after a few of these, if the parents really like the guy, he might be invited to stay for dinner. 

After one of these sessions my Grandpa left her house to walk home. Rounding a corner he encountered a guy who was also after my Grandma and two of his buddies. My Grandpa got his ass kicked! Once he recovered from his beating, my Grandpa bought that set of brass knuckles and made another appointment. When he left my Grandma's house that time he encountered the same three guys around the corner. His rival stepped up to deliver the first punch, and my Granpa blasted him right him the nose with the brass knuckles! Blood everywhere! The second guy got the same thing, and the third guy just turned and ran. 

Long story short, my Grandpa never made the "invited to dinner" roster. Seems my Grandma's parents didn't like him. But, they loved each other. So, one night, they boarded a train to West Virginia (they lived near Pittsburgh), and were wed by a Justice of the Peace. For two devout Catholics to do that in those days is pretty extreme! 

Rebelliousness knows no age!  

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12 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I honestly can't imagine why anyone is surprised by this. Right from the first post we have an example of youngsters who like seeing an "antisocial" puppet being beaten up. I don't know how old all of you are, but there used to be things calls "Punch & Judy Shows". These puppet shows featured a character called Punch (from Punchinello), who would beat the crap out of the other characters in the show with a wooden club. The experiment above seems like an offshoot of this phenomenon.

As far as moral hypocrisy goes, remember Shakespeare's admonition. "Methinks thou doth protest too much!" 

And for the fight at school and students coming to watch, what else is new?! Back when I was in grade school, the word went around that two guys had a major beef with each other, and would have it out at the local library after school. The entire student body of the 7th and 8th grades turned out! Of course someone noticed the commotion and called the cops! When they showed up, we scatter like chaff in the wind! There were no weapons of course, such things were just not countenanced back then. This was back in the mid-60's. 

And if that not far enough back for you, I'll tell you a story my Mom told me. When I was just a toddler, she was helping my GrandDad clean out some cupboards in the pantry when she came across some brass knuckles way up high on a top shelf. She took them to her Father and said, "Pap! What are these?" He told my Mom that she was old enough to hear the story. 

Back when my Grandpa was courting my Grandma (in the early 1900's), you did NOT go out on "dates". The man would show up at the house of his heart's desire dressed in a suit and tie. You would sit in the parlor with your intended and her parents and engage in conversation. Light refreshments might be served. And, after a few of these, if the parents really like the guy, he might be invited to stay for dinner. 

After one of these sessions my Grandpa left her house to walk home. Rounding a corner he encountered a guy who was also after my Grandma and two of his buddies. My Grandpa got his ass kicked! Once he recovered from his beating, my Grandpa bought that set of brass knuckles and made another appointment. When he left my Grandma's house that time he encountered the same three guys around the corner. His rival stepped up to deliver the first punch, and my Granpa blasted him right him the nose with the brass knuckles! Blood everywhere! The second guy got the same thing, and the third guy just turned and ran. 

Long story short, my Grandpa never made the "invited to dinner" roster. Seems my Grandma's parents didn't like him. But, they loved each other. So, one night, they boarded a train to West Virginia (they lived near Pittsburgh), and were wed by a Justice of the Peace. For two devout Catholics to do that in those days is pretty extreme! 

Rebelliousness knows no age!  

To be perfectly honest, I enjoyed reading your story and the “revenge against the bad guys”.

On a side note, your grandpa possibly beat up one of her brothers and the rival was likely a good family friend whom your grandma possibly detested. If he was conspiring to beat the crap out of your grandpa, he’d likely have beaten your grandma and their children anyway.

Stories like these give you a good feeling not from the misery of others but that justice had somehow been served for the better?

It’s not rebellious to leave a frightening situation for your grandma. Nor that your grandpa could be played by Bruce Willis in the upcoming film “The Brass Knuckles” 😂

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