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Importance of Strike on Distance


Don Golfo
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3 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

You are talking about putting only. A Tour Pro is VASTLY better at ball striking than a scratch golfer.

Not just 1% better. A small percentage for putting and short game, and bigger percentage in long game.

 Your one example, and a specific one were he played poorly and you played really well, does nothing to support your argument. You are cherry picking situations to fit your logic.

FIR% and GIR% are not good stats. Lets say two golfers hit the same GIR%, but one golfer is 15 FT closer to the pin on average. That one golfer will probably crush the other golfer.

Are these golfers playing the same course? A PGA Tour player averages 12 GIR a round on tough courses. A scratch golfer averages 10-12 GIR per round, but on substantially shorter courses. If they played a PGA course set up, I would bet they would hit closer to 50% GIR.

You are making my point...I...as a shitty 5 handicap hit plenty of shots that a Pro could hit no better...but the further away from the hole that you are the more their advantage shows itself. My one example show that on any given day that my range of scores could come close to his range of scores but it would take me playing really well to overlap his.  You are a 3.6 saevel25..if you shoot under par then your scores will overlap a tour pros so if you play well and they play bad..you will win...period. You just won't win consistently in the long run because you are not the better.  

It is safe to say that the person who hits more fairways and greens is the better ball striker and likely hits it closer to the hole on average which is why they hit more fairways and greens in the first place. You argument is not true that just because a golfer hits it 15 feet closer that the score difference will be dramatically different because if one golfer is hitting it to 30 feet and the other is hitting it to 45 feet on average the numbers say that to good players will mostly two putt from those distances but the closer golfer will probably 3 putt less over time so that will be the difference between the scores because the make percentage is low for both of them from the beginning.  

Tour players play on better conditioned courses and greens and who is to say that a scratch golfer is playing on a substantially shorter course?   

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53 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I never said it was easy...your own information shows that a scratch golfer is closer to a tour pro than a 90's golfer is to being a scratch golfer.

So?

You're acting like the "distance" is the same. It may be smaller when you look at the numbers, but those tenths of a shot become significantly harder and harder to get as you get down to scratch and beyond. Going from a 5 to a scratch is often harder than going from a 20 to a 5, IMO.

I could take two years off and still play to a 5 a few weeks after getting back into golf. I'll never be a Tour pro even if I work at it daily (I basically do, though not six hours a day or anything).

53 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Watching a Tour Pro and a legit scratch golfer play a round of golf is not going to look as dramatic as you make it seem.

I disagree. But then again, I know what I'm looking for.

53 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

He was a +3 and he didn't just mop the floor with me on a daily basis because I was a legit 5 that could shoot my handicap on any course from the tips in any conditions.  The problem was that I didn't shoot much below my handicap. His baseline scores where from 3 under to 2 over with his best days going as low as 8 under.  My baseline scores where 5 to 8 over with my best days being as low as 3 over, which didn't happen very often.  That's why I hit a wall at a 5 handicap and he was a +3.   The margins are so narrow when you are legit scratch or better handicap that there are not glaring differences...but on the whole the better player does EVERYTHING just a little bit better. 

Your range: -10 --------------------------|----|------|---- +10
His range:  -10 ----|----------|----------|---------------- +10

I don't know man, that's mopping the floor with you in my book. Especially given what I feel about the difficulty of shaving even a tenth of a shot here and there once you get to and beyond scratch.

And… he's a former European Tour player. So he's not current, and he played on a weaker Tour.

32 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I completely agree that Tour Pros strike it better than everyone else...but the difference isn't glaring until you add it up at the end of the round or the tournament.

I know what I'm looking for, so I don't really agree it's "not glaring." I'd see it as pretty glaring. But again, I know what I'm looking for, I guess.

32 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

175 to 225 was the point where I was content with just hitting the green and he was not is what I said.  That is the point where me, as a 5 handicap could feel that he was just better at getting the ball on the green and he was closer to the pin almost always than I was from that distance. … Oh trust me he was still in flag hunting mode and had every intention of hitting it close

You said he was flag hunting, which is complete and utter BS.

Tiger Woods was incredible in his prime from these ranges, and he, well, here:

image.png

Your buddy the former European Tour player was not flag hunting from 175 to 225.

32 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Oh trust me he was still in flag hunting mode and had every intention of hitting it close...he said that he knew he would strike it pure so his intent was to hit it in there just like he would a 50 yard wedge shot.

Then your buddy is an idiot.

32 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

That thought processing is exactly what separates the good golfers from everyone else.

Nope.

32 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

That thought processing is exactly what separates the good golfers from everyone else. Even from distance the expectation is the exact same as if the shot were closer. I took a lot from him in that regard to how he attacked the course. His intent was to hit every shot close as long as he could reach the green so his focus was much narrower than mine was.   

Completely stupid.

I don't say that often, because I know how strong it can sound, but I assure you I mean it as strongly as it seems in this instance.

Whether you like the Decision Maps and Shades of Grey in the GamePlanning section of LSW or whether you like DECADE from Scott Fawcett, or you're just capable of looking at the table I posted up above or you've read Every Shot Counts by Mark Broadie, everything I just listed would prove you (him) wrong.

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You are making my point...I...as a shitty 5 handicap hit plenty of shots that a Pro could hit no better.

You really don't, unless you're talking about tap-ins and such, or have a very unusual definition of "plenty."

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Tour players play on better conditioned courses and greens and who is to say that a scratch golfer is playing on a substantially shorter course?

Virtually every scratch golfer plays on shorter, easier courses with lower rough, softer greens, etc. The tougher the course the bigger the advantage a Tour player has over the scratch golfer or 5 handicapper.

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44 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You are making my point...I...as a shitty 5 handicap hit plenty of shots that a Pro could hit no better...but the further away from the hole that you are the more their advantage shows itself.

First of all, a 5 is a 5 unless you double bogey every hole on half your rounds 😁

Second, pros not only have a higher swing speed than you do, but they strike really well. If you were a +5 handicap, I’d agree with you.

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I'm not agreeing with Righty to Lefty, but I did play a round this summer with a kid who was a few weeks away from playing some mini-tours as a first step in trying to turn pro.  I can only guess that such a player who had been a successive D1 college player was a +3 or +4.  At the end of the round, I was not as overwhelming impressed with his play as I would have thought before the round - simply put nothing dazzled me, so I kind of see where Righty to Lefty was coming from.  On the other hand, without hitting a lot of dazzling shots he shot 74 from 7600 yards so that in itself was pretty dazzling.

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5 minutes ago, gbogey said:

I'm not agreeing with Righty to Lefty, but I did play a round this summer with a kid who was a few weeks away from playing some mini-tours as a first step in trying to turn pro.  I can only guess that such a player who had been a successive D1 college player was a +3 or +4.  At the end of the round, I was not as overwhelming impressed with his play as I would have thought before the round - simply put nothing dazzled me, so I kind of see where Righty to Lefty was coming from.  On the other hand, without hitting a lot of dazzling shots he shot 74 from 7600 yards so that in itself was pretty dazzling.

One round is such a small sample size. You also dont have to hit tons of dazzling shots to be really good at golf, but you do have to minimize the mistakes on a consistent basis (while playing on super long and super hard courses)

Pros dont stick every iron shot to 10 feet and then drain all of their putts like most people think. 

Pros still miss 30% of their greens and 30+% of their fairways. 

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2 minutes ago, gbogey said:

simply put nothing dazzled me, so I kind of see where Righty to Lefty was coming from.  On the other hand, without hitting a lot of dazzling shots he shot 74 from 7600 yards so that in itself was pretty dazzling.

That course probably had a rating of 75-78. So, he probably shot around a +1 to a +2 differential. 74-76 = -2 * (113/145) = +1.6 rating

Now, think about a PGA Tour player shooting a 69 on those courses.

Most PGA tour players make bank on par 5's. On a 540 yard par 5, they are averaging 4.65 strokes. On a 420 yard par 4 they are averaging around 4.02 strokes. On a 180 yard par 3 they are averaging about 3.05 strokes.

It's boring golf. Birdie 2-3 of the par 5's. Try to go even par on the remaining holes. You shoot about 69-70 on a 7600 yard course. If you get LUCKY and drain a few long putts on a par 3 or par 4 you get that low 65ish score.

You put a normal scratch player, they average 250 yards (from game golf). That is nearly 40-50 yards shorter on the tee shots.

Lets say the tee up on that 540 yard hole. The pro hits a 300 yard drive in the fairway, they are expecting to get the ball in the hole in 3.45 strokes on average from that fairway position. A scratch golfer hits his 250 yard drive, they will be expected to take 4.07 strokes on average from that fairway position.

Instead of getting a birdie every other par 5, they are going to average par.

Yea, a non-dazzling round it what to be expected.

If you consider PGA Tour players have on average 166 yards remaining into the hole for their approach shots. Even from the fairway, they will average 28'-0" from the hole. This will leave them with an expected 1.95 strokes. Not really making a lot of birdies, even from the fairway.

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I think I'm agreeing with you guys but you guys don't realize it.  Just checked, the course was 76.8/137/ 7500 yards, so a +3 round.  I don't know if this kid will make it on the mini-tours much less the PGA, all I'm saying is without hitting a shot that stood out - a super recovery or spin back wedge shot - he shot 74.  That's incredible in my book.

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1 minute ago, gbogey said:

Just checked, the course was 76.8/137/ 7500 yards, so a +3 round.

FWIW that's a differential of +2.3.

And to others, this is a kid who hasn't even had success (yet?) on the mini-tours.

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To add small sample size for the other side..I played several rounds with my cousin who was on the PGA Tour back in the 80’s. I was the hack in the group as his dad, my dad and a buddy were all +2 to -3 hcps. Now my cousin was currently on the tour and struggling  to keep his card. I can say without a doubt playing our local courses Kent (the Pro) would obliterate all of us. The + 2 guy had thought about trying to get his card at one time and would always comment how he’d just never make it seeing how Kent could school him out there.  

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I am good friends with a guy who has been on and off the European Tour. And I must say, he is on another level altogether from me and my other pals who are all low handicappers/club pros. 

The difference is massive...the relentless strike quality, control of flight, accuracy, wedge play is all far superior. 

I honestly think no matter how much I practice, his current level is unachievable for me to reach. Thats not being self defeating - it just is. 

And although hes had a couple of nice finishes, he cant keep his card for any length of time which is unfathomable to think when you watch him knock it round in 8 under for fun. Just shows how good the top players are. 

For the guy who thinks theres only a little bit of difference in every facet between a low handicapper and a tour player, please wake up. 

Im a decent golfer but I probably wouldnt break 85 from the backs at Augusta. These boys knock around in 65 with the most pressure they might face in a season. 

Difference is enormous. 

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4 minutes ago, Dean Walker said:

For the guy who thinks theres only a little bit of difference in every facet between a low handicapper and a tour player, please wake up. 

Yep.

The difference is huge if you know what you're looking at.

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1 minute ago, iacas said:

Yep.

The difference is huge if you know what you're looking at.

Thats very true. I think if a 24 handicapper for instance (no disrespect to 24 handicappers) watched me vs my friend, they might notice only a small difference and might not be able to grasp just how much better he is. 

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I guess I'm easy to impress, I was in awe of the D III player I got paired with recently. Anytime I get paired with a good player, I'm looking at each swing and where it winds up with eagle eyes. Pretty darn amazing. The better they are, the easier it looks.

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9 minutes ago, Dean Walker said:

Thats very true. I think if a 24 handicapper for instance (no disrespect to 24 handicappers) watched me vs my friend, they might notice only a small difference and might not be able to grasp just how much better he is. 

Probably easier to see if you are playing the same/similar tee boxes than if you are 1200 yards apart.

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Just now, gbogey said:

Probably easier to see if you are playing the same/similar tee boxes than if you are 1200 yards apart.

I obviously meant from the same tee boxes or next to each other on the range for instance. 

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Sorry, should have been more clear.  I was trying to say in regard to the situation I was in.  The kid (he 22ish) was impressive, but he was playing from so far back that I think it impacted the wow factor.  If he had been playing my tees, it would have been a real wow as he would hit 3i or FW as far as my driver and then really go pin seeking.  As it was I often had a shorter approach than he did.

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11 hours ago, Lihu said:

First of all, a 5 is a 5 unless you double bogey every hole on half your rounds 😁

Second, pros not only have a higher swing speed than you do, but they strike really well. If you were a +5 handicap, I’d agree with you.

My swing speed left handed is 120 mph right now and was as high as 129 mph.  I swing it just as fast as most any tour pro.  I'm still a 5 handicap though !!

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10 hours ago, gbogey said:

I'm not agreeing with Righty to Lefty, but I did play a round this summer with a kid who was a few weeks away from playing some mini-tours as a first step in trying to turn pro.  I can only guess that such a player who had been a successive D1 college player was a +3 or +4.  At the end of the round, I was not as overwhelming impressed with his play as I would have thought before the round - simply put nothing dazzled me, so I kind of see where Righty to Lefty was coming from.  On the other hand, without hitting a lot of dazzling shots he shot 74 from 7600 yards so that in itself was pretty dazzling.

I thought I was alone...as I often do on this forum!! I never said that I was better...I simply said that day in and day out he did EVERYTHING better than I did but not dramatically when taken in context of shot to shot. He was gaining a shot over me every few holes....not on every hole.  It wasn't like I was spraying it all over the yard and he was making birdie on every hole.  Sure he had the ability to go unconscious and shoot 6 or 7 under over 9 holes but that didn't happen everyday. I hit it further than he did also which would make it look even less dramatic because I was longer than the better player so I'm going for greens in two just like he is. 

What amazed me was two things...first watching a player go unconscious and just dismantle a golf course.  Watching someone shoot 6 or 7 under on a side is so impressive to see in person.  Second...the consistency from day to day over long periods of time...he was like a robot and I could basically see the shot before he even hit it because everything was aligned properly in relation to his intentions.  His ability to get into the proper location in relation to the ball to hit it with predictable leverage was uncanny. 

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