Faksakes' Experiment

[Lihu 751]

2 hours ago, layup said:

Im curious where you guys think I will be at the end of the season using my methods (assuming my back is good all year)? Do you think Ill stuggle to get below a 30hc? 25hc? 

Also what would you guys consider a moderate success for me and what would you consider to be very successful?

Again my past is: averaged 13 or 14hc for last 10 years. I have 5 or 6 sub 80 rounds, my best being a 75 about 5 years ago. My lowest cap was an 8 for a few weeks then shot up to an 11. All this was right handed with none of the health issues i have now.

Just curious to see what you guys expect. 

Even if you do manage to get back to a 13HC, is hurting your back worth it?

I’m not an Orthopedic doctor, PT, trainer nor instructor, but what makes you think swinging lefty is going to help with your lower back?

As for getting to a 30? Or 25? Why not? For a person who’s played to a 13 with a single digit potential, I’d think it’s totally possible to break 100 or better? You should know the answer better than any of us?

[tdiii 58]

My $0.02:

(a)  Consider squatting and deadlifting.  I had chronic back problems from age 18 when I had bulging discs at L4/L5 until my early 40s.  Both herniated along the way and I didn't have a pain free day in my life -- until I started squatting and deadlifting.  Obviously you'll need good form and start cautiously but look into it.

(b)  There's a lunatic on Youtube, Robin Matthews, who was a PGA instructor in England, but has given it up and advocates, essentially, no coaching and learning feel by not watching the ball.  In any event, I think there's something there you might want to look at. 

(c)  I don't see anything wrong with this experiment.  I'm eager to see how it goes for you!

[Faksakes 9]

10 hours ago, Nail said:

I just wanted to post and ask the op if he changed his username in the midst of this thread? A Faksakes started it and now a Layup seems to be commenting like the OP

BTW for what it’s worth I wish you the best of luck but I don’t see you getting below a 25hc this year but is like to be proven wrong. 

 

Hi, regarding the username I am not sure what happened. I think I may have logged in with my phone and might have used my google user name? Or its possible I might have made two accounts having forgot about one.  Maybe my phone saved that login information from a few years back? I am not sure but I bet that's it. I'm using my computer at home now so if it posts as Faksakes I"m betting that's it.

As for the HC I have no clue what to expect. I might not get below a 30, I really have no idea.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Faksakes

[Faksakes 9]

@iacas

We have data though. I was a 13cap after playing for over 20 years as a righty with a good back. We totally have a base line. I am right handed and it obviously will be more difficult to play and learn left handed. I don't think anyone would dispute that. So if I get anywhere near my old cap after playing lefty for a two to three years I would say that's a huge success. It took me well over 10 years of playing to get down to a 14hc. If I can get near that in a few years with my physical limitations and obstacles I would say that's a huge success. I'd be thrilled if I could get below a 20 within a few years.

8 hours ago, Lihu said:

Even if you do manage to get back to a 13HC, is hurting your back worth it?

I’m not an Orthopedic doctor, PT, trainer nor instructor, but what makes you think swinging lefty is going to help with your lower back?

As for getting to a 30? Or 25? Why not? For a person who’s played to a 13 with a single digit potential, I’d think it’s totally possible to break 100 or better? You should know the answer better than any of us?

I will not endanger my back for golf. I have said that several times already and I mean it. This thread could sputter out before it gets going if there are any signs of pain or discomfort. 

The advantage of learning lefty is that I'll be able to control the speed much easier. I had a very fast swing speed ingrained for many years and could never lay off it like some guys could. I'll be training new neuro pathways in the brain and won't have to overcome the previous ones from playing righty. 

I have no clue what my potential will be learning left handed and not hitting the ball far like I used to. I think if I were thinking of someone else doing this in my situation I'd say anything around 20 would be really good for this year. 

[Faksakes 9]

7 hours ago, tdiii said:

My $0.02:

(a)  Consider squatting and deadlifting.  I had chronic back problems from age 18 when I had bulging discs at L4/L5 until my early 40s.  Both herniated along the way and I didn't have a pain free day in my life -- until I started squatting and deadlifting.  Obviously you'll need good form and start cautiously but look into it.

(b)  There's a lunatic on Youtube, Robin Matthews, who was a PGA instructor in England, but has given it up and advocates, essentially, no coaching and learning feel by not watching the ball.  In any event, I think there's something there you might want to look at. 

(c)  I don't see anything wrong with this experiment.  I'm eager to see how it goes for you!

A) Thanks and I've already started squatting, just low weight right now but I agree, it makes a big difference. I don't know how to dead-lift so I'd have to get a trainer but I was thinking about this anyway. I might have to go start this as well. Thanks.

B) cool, I will take a look and see what I think. Appreciated.

C) Thanks man, it is just that, an experiment. I don't take it personally if some think it's stupid or wrong headed. I'm totally willing to be proven wrong. There is really nothing to lose trying and I really think I'm right anyway haha. 

[phillyk 514]

8 hours ago, Faksakes said:

 

The advantage of learning lefty is that I'll be able to control the speed much easier. I had a very fast swing speed ingrained for many years and could never lay off it like some guys could. I'll be training new neuro pathways in the brain and won't have to overcome the previous ones from playing righty. 

I have no clue what my potential will be learning left handed and not hitting the ball far like I used to. I think if I were thinking of someone else doing this in my situation I'd say anything around 20 would be really good for this year. 

How fast your arms move will remain the same regardless of going lefty or righty. The difference will be the mechanics of going lefty, but eventually you will be able to swing about the same speed.  The thing that may stop you (regardless of left/right) is the injury.  Most people are very cautious when returning to golf and will swing that way until proven otherwise.

New neuro pathways? Not really. Think about it. Start at the green.  After learning to play right handed, could you not switch to putting lefty and do decent? How about chipping? Maybe a bit tougher but you could do all right.  Bigger swings you could still do and most likely make contact with the ball.  Learning to play from a certain orientation is also teaching how to play the other one, a bit.  You know how to swing fast, you will want to swing fast again when you feel healthier.

Regardless, I wish you well in your journey.

[iacas 10,100]

8 hours ago, Faksakes said:

We have data though. I was a 13cap after playing for over 20 years as a righty with a good back. We totally have a base line. I am right handed and it obviously will be more difficult to play and learn left handed. I don't think anyone would dispute that. So if I get anywhere near my old cap after playing lefty for a two to three years I would say that's a huge success.

Those are two totally different things.

And BTW I can probably break 100 out lefty the first time I play golf; it's not "more difficult to learn and play left-handed." It's easier.

So yeah, a lot of people will dispute that, because you've already got 20 years of golf experience.

Never mind that some people still think playing opposite handed is better for you anyway since your dominant hand will be "leading" the swing rather than "pushing" from behind.

I switch hit just fine in baseball and often hit for more power lefty than righty.

I'm not defining success for you because you're a one-off, and if I were you, just playing golf again might be a "success." I was talking about "success" in the context of "no instruction." In that context, there's no actual measure of success because we don't have parallel universes so we can't compare two versions of the same exact situation with one variable. And if we could it'd still be a sample size of one.

[Faksakes 9]

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

Those are two totally different things.

And BTW I can probably break 100 out lefty the first time I play golf; it's not "more difficult to learn and play left-handed." It's easier.

So yeah, a lot of people will dispute that, because you've already got 20 years of golf experience.

Never mind that some people still think playing opposite handed is better for you anyway since your dominant hand will be "leading" the swing rather than "pushing" from behind.

I switch hit just fine in baseball and often hit for more power lefty than righty.

I'm not defining success for you because you're a one-off, and if I were you, just playing golf again might be a "success." I was talking about "success" in the context of "no instruction." In that context, there's no actual measure of success because we don't have parallel universes so we can't compare two versions of the same exact situation with one variable. And if we could it'd still be a sample size of one.

Ah I see where you are coming from regarding instruction now, I misunderstood what you were saying. It's true we can't measure me getting instruction vs not getting it. That said if I surpass in a few years where I was at as a righty I would say my method is certainly better than my old method obviously. Especially with the physical limitations. I don't see how anyone could argue with that. A young driven fit man learning golf vs a middle aged dude with some health issues. I can't see how the older me would have an advantage over the younger me other than my learning methods (which remain to be seen if they will work).

You say learning lefty would be easier. You are a 2hc right? So how long do you think it would take you to get to the same if you learned left handed? Could you do it in a year? Do you think you could be better swinging it lefty than you are as a righty in a shorter period of time that it took you to do it right handed? I know we have no way of knowing but what is your guess?

Regardless I don't want to argue with you all thread, this is about fun and a different approach to learning something, in this case golf, than we're used to hearing from "experts". Will my methods help me excel or will it be a giant disaster? That's what it's all about to me.  I'm sticking with it for the year regardless of the results. If they are at all encouraging I will stick with it permanently. 

1 hour ago, phillyk said:

How fast your arms move will remain the same regardless of going lefty or righty. The difference will be the mechanics of going lefty, but eventually you will be able to swing about the same speed.  The thing that may stop you (regardless of left/right) is the injury.  Most people are very cautious when returning to golf and will swing that way until proven otherwise.

New neuro pathways? Not really. Think about it. Start at the green.  After learning to play right handed, could you not switch to putting lefty and do decent? How about chipping? Maybe a bit tougher but you could do all right.  Bigger swings you could still do and most likely make contact with the ball.  Learning to play from a certain orientation is also teaching how to play the other one, a bit.  You know how to swing fast, you will want to swing fast again when you feel healthier.

Regardless, I wish you well in your journey.

Thanks for the well wishes.

[iacas 10,100]

24 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

Ah I see where you are coming from regarding instruction now, I misunderstood what you were saying. It's true we can't measure me getting instruction vs not getting it. That said if I surpass in a few years where I was at as a righty I would say my method is certainly better than my old method obviously.

It's still not something you can legitimately claim. You can't "wipe" the previous 20 years of golf from the record, and you're a completely different person now than you were then. It's easy to argue.

24 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

You say learning lefty would be easier. You are a 2hc right?

You're talking to me? No. Not a 2. I said I was a 2 a few years after I took up the game in high school.

24 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

So how long do you think it would take you to get to the same if you learned left handed? Could you do it in a year?

I don't know, nor would - again - only one data point mean anything at all.

If I played as much as I did then, I'd probably do it faster… because I've got experience under my belt. I already routinely out-chip and out-putt (left) many of my students.

24 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

Regardless I don't want to argue with you all thread

Again, admittedly, I too thought you were a different person, not the OP.

I wished you luck up above, and continue to wish that as I would to any golfer.

[Faksakes 9]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

It's still not something you can legitimately claim. You can't "wipe" the previous 20 years of golf from the record, and you're a completely different person now than you were then. It's easy to argue.

You're talking to me? No. Not a 2. I said I was a 2 a few years after I took up the game in high school.

I don't know, nor would - again - only one data point mean anything at all.

If I played as much as I did then, I'd probably do it faster… because I've got experience under my belt. I already routinely out-chip and out-putt (left) many of my students.

Again, admittedly, I too thought you were a different person, not the OP.

I wished you luck up above, and continue to wish that as I would to any golfer.

Cheers, we'll leave it at that, we disagree on most everything and that's ok. 

[Faksakes 9]

On 12/12/2018 at 4:28 PM, tdiii said:

My $0.02:

(a)  Consider squatting and deadlifting.  I had chronic back problems from age 18 when I had bulging discs at L4/L5 until my early 40s.  Both herniated along the way and I didn't have a pain free day in my life -- until I started squatting and deadlifting.  Obviously you'll need good form and start cautiously but look into it.

(b)  There's a lunatic on Youtube, Robin Matthews, who was a PGA instructor in England, but has given it up and advocates, essentially, no coaching and learning feel by not watching the ball.  In any event, I think there's something there you might want to look at. 

(c)  I don't see anything wrong with this experiment.  I'm eager to see how it goes for you!

Hi again, I checked out Robin Matthews-Williams channel and you are correct, I love it. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I had no idea there was anyone out there teaching this idea, and I understand from him that he learned it from someone else. Shouldn't surprise me really, everything has been done under the sun. I also found this guy from the 30's who went by Count Yogi who seems to have espoused a similar idea. 

I also found a guy on youtube that's doing the same thing as I am, learning golf left handed after playing righty for years. His channel is called "Just your average golfer" if anyone is interested. His approach and mine will differ a lot I'm sure but that makes it all the more interesting to me. (he had a lesson with Robin though, that's how I found him so maybe not that much different swing wise. Not sure.)

Anyway just wanted to thank you as Robin will save me some experimenting to a degree I'm sure. So I guess I'm already breaking a rule about no instruction. I should have changed that to "normal" instruction. "Feel" golf only!

Have a good day all.

 

 

[phillyk 514]

3 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

"Feel" golf only!

All instruction is about creating a proper "feel" for your swing.  There are just a ton of different approaches and ideas about what is proper.

[Faksakes 9]

16 minutes ago, phillyk said:

All instruction is about creating a proper "feel" for your swing.  There are just a ton of different approaches and ideas about what is proper.

Thanks for your post but I don't agree that all instruction is about creating a proper feel. That might be the intent for some instructors but you almost never hear them focus on it. My lessons not once did they mention that word. 

Just watch this video from one of the worlds greatest teachers. Hilarious. My lord this is bad. More than a dozen technical mentions (in less than 4 minutes) and only once did he use the word feel and it was just to set up some technical advice haha. This will screw up almost anyone.

 

I hear a lot about "left arm straight" "No, left arm bent" "Stand closer to the ball" "Your path is too far inside" "Your path is too far outside" "You're over the top" "your hand path is not correct" and on and on and on. If they are saying all that to get people to "feel" I think they are doing a poor job. And of course certain feels, change mechanics. Bubba thinking "hit a hook" is going to change his swing mechanics obviously. But he feels how to do it, he doesn't think mechanically about it. Some can for sure do it though, I'm sure there are plenty of guys on tour that take a technical approach and make it work. I just think most would be better off with Bubba's method. 

All mechanical talk does is make people think about the game mechanically. Just look at the golfers on the range or that you play with. They are always talking about some technical aspect of the swing. Almost never feel. They are all bound up. I think most of us have been paralyzed on the course thinking about a million different things we are supposed to be doing. I think that's the death of the swing for the vast majority. There will always be outliers and exceptions like DeChambeau. Or perhaps that works for very math minded people. I don't know. I just see the approach that has been taken is not working for most. The HC has dropped a measly few strokes over the last few decades. The ball and equipment improvements alone should account for that...

Human beings are going to focus on the technical when you speak to them that way. You can say "hing your wrist at 8 O'clock, now do you see how that feels?" and people will focus on "hing my wrist at 8 O'clock. (just an example of what I'm talking about, not that a coach would give that exact advice) It's not a good way to coach in my opinion. It's like saying "don't think about a pink elephant". 

But all that said I'm willing to be wrong. If my theories don't work for me then I'll say so. If they do work most won't believe it anyway or say the sample size is to small to mean anything, so this is all for me and to provide some entertainment for those of you interested. A giant failure might be as fun as a giant success in some ways. I'm going to learn a lot either way.

[phillyk 514]

10 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

Thanks for your post but I don't agree that all instruction is about creating a proper feel. That might be the intent for some instructors but you almost never hear them focus on it. My lessons not once did they mention that word. 

I guess I should say I hope to get people to feel the adjustments during a lesson, not that every instructor does it.  I take the priority piece from the mechanical POV, then do drills that emphasize that piece.  Through drills, I like to ask what they feel after certain shots and whether it differs after another shot.  The point is to find that one thing that mentally clicks for the priority piece and they can bring it home to work on.  Sometimes they don't find that something during the lesson and they bring the drills home and eventually find it.

[Faksakes 9]

1 minute ago, phillyk said:

I guess I should say I hope to get people to feel the adjustments during a lesson, not that every instructor does it.  I take the priority piece from the mechanical POV, then do drills that emphasize that piece.  Through drills, I like to ask what they feel after certain shots and whether it differs after another shot.  The point is to find that one thing that mentally clicks for the priority piece and they can bring it home to work on.  Sometimes they don't find that something during the lesson and they bring the drills home and eventually find it.

Well you are a much better instructor than I had or have seen. How do you put it to a student? Something like, "Do you see how this feels when you move this way?" ? or what exactly is your approach. Say for example you are trying to get a student to make a bigger shoulder turn, what would you say to them? 

Also can I ask, do you think that when they go home to work on something are they focusing on getting that feel primarily, or are they focused on mechanics and technical advice more so? Not taking a shot, just honestly curious on your opinion and if you ask them about that at the next lesson? Ex. "Dan, were you focused more on the technical aspects or the feel we were going for when you were home practicing?" For their homework do you stress feel being important?

Really appreciate your insight.

[phillyk 514]

8 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

How do you put it to a student? Something like, "Do you see how this feels when you move this way?" ? or what exactly is your approach. Say for example you are trying to get a student to make a bigger shoulder turn, what would you say to them? 

A full shoulder turn can have a feel of the left shoulder going under the chin, right shoulder going around, could even be hands going behind right ear, etc.  Everybody has their own method to the madness.  In drilling, I just ask what specific motion or placement feels different than the original swing.  Some have an answer, some don't. The feel needs to be reinforced by better contact or ball flight or both.  If it happens right on the first drill, great! Short and easy.  It usually takes a couple different ways or drills to really find a feel that speaks to them.  It may not speak to them that day, but they could back to the course tomorrow and say they got it now.

31 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

Also can I ask, do you think that when they go home to work on something are they focusing on getting that feel primarily, or are they focused on mechanics and technical advice more so? Not taking a shot, just honestly curious on your opinion and if you ask them about that at the next lesson? Ex. "Dan, were you focused more on the technical aspects or the feel we were going for when you were home practicing?" For their homework do you stress feel being important?

One's feel that their bringing home is a technique.  They may think turn 90 degrees in their head, but really it's a translation of the body feeling a motion. I don't need to stress feel.  It's something that happens naturally.  

[iacas 10,100]

2 hours ago, Faksakes said:

Anyway just wanted to thank you as Robin will save me some experimenting to a degree I'm sure. So I guess I'm already breaking a rule about no instruction. I should have changed that to "normal" instruction. "Feel" golf only!

I don't think you understood/understand what "normal instruction" is. I am the one who wrote the "everyone is a feel player" topic.

We aren't robots. We don't have switches and dials. The only real way to change mechanics is to change how things feel.

1 hour ago, Faksakes said:

Thanks for your post but I don't agree that all instruction is about creating a proper feel. That might be the intent for some instructors but you almost never hear them focus on it. My lessons not once did they mention that word.

I'm not sure you've got a true grasp on what "instruction" is these days.

I gave a lesson today and probably said the word "feel" ten or twelve times. "What's that feel like to you?" "If you have a feel, let me know so I can write that down." Etc.

But you also don't have to say the word "feel" while talking about a "feel."

1 hour ago, Faksakes said:

I hear a lot about "left arm straight" "No, left arm bent" "Stand closer to the ball" "Your path is too far inside" "Your path is too far outside" "You're over the top" "your hand path is not correct" and on and on and on. If they are saying all that to get people to "feel" I think they are doing a poor job.

I feel like you and @Don Golfo are in some bizarro land, and you're trying to assess golf instruction without really having taken much. What's done in a video is not a golf lesson, per se, because it's generalized.

Feels are personalized, and you can't really do that in a video.

Hell, I gave almost identical lessons a few years ago, back to back, same flaws… and the feels were almost exact opposites. You can't convey that in a video, and a video ain't a lesson.

Those are flaws that you listed. How you fix them is often with a feel. But the mechanics are what they are. "You don't have enough shaft lean at impact" is not a feel, but how you fix that is likely with a drill, and a feel. Feels change the mechanics.

1 hour ago, Faksakes said:

I just think most would be better off with Bubba's method.

I don't think you and I would agree on what "Bubba's method" is.

Bubba is a great golfer. Tell an average player - one who has never hit a big high draw in his life - all you want about "feeling" it and "envisioning" it and… they're still gonna hit some low pull-slice, probably, or mis-hit the ball some other way.

Bubba is altering his mechanics, you bet. But he's beyond the point where he has a stock good shot. Most golfers never even get there.

Most golfers would not benefit at all from Bubba's method. Which has nothing to do with "using feels during instruction."

1 hour ago, Faksakes said:

All mechanical talk does is make people think about the game mechanically.

Again, I have no idea what lessons you or @Don Golfo have taken… I think you're confusing a video put out to the masses with how instruction is. That's best case scenario…

1 hour ago, Faksakes said:

They are always talking about some technical aspect of the swing. Almost never feel. They are all bound up.

That's funny, seeing as how fewer than one in six golfers even takes a lesson. So where are they getting these "technical" things? You're blaming instructors, and yet… almost none of those "bound up" golfers are taking lessons.

1 hour ago, Faksakes said:

There will always be outliers and exceptions like DeChambeau.

DeChambeau is a feel player. Everyone is. I've seen him, and he didn't have dials and switches on his body.

Look, I'll make it simple: the best instructors have a deep and thorough technical understanding of the golf swing, the human body, ball flight, and more… and teach with feels to change the mechanics.

You cannot be a good instructor without both. Both are important, because what "feels" produce great mechanics in one player might produce complete crap in another.

You're completely off base if you think that DeChambeau isn't a feel player. Of course he is.

1 hour ago, Faksakes said:

If they do work most won't believe it anyway or say the sample size is to small to mean anything,

No, whether they work OR don't work, the sample size is too small to mean anything. It's a sample size of one. It's statistically irrelevant. Whether you fail OR succeed.

45 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

How do you put it to a student? Something like, "Do you see how this feels when you move this way?" ? or what exactly is your approach. Say for example you are trying to get a student to make a bigger shoulder turn, what would you say to them?

It varies by student, and the fact that this is so surprising to you, man, I don't know what kind of "instruction" you've seen to this point…

45 minutes ago, Faksakes said:

Also can I ask, do you think that when they go home to work on something are they focusing on getting that feel primarily, or are they focused on mechanics and technical advice more so?

Ideally, both. Feelings shift and change. They have to know how to create the right mechanics, because feels will change over time.

Grant Waite stood on a pressure plate and would have sworn his weight was 50/50. It was 65/35. If you told him to "feel" 65/35… he would have gone to 80/20 or something. He's been setting up 65/35 for so long, it felt balanced to him.

Send him home feeling "65/35" and not knowing what that actually looks like and he'll probably come back to you in a month overdoing it.

I had a lesson today, and like almost all lessons, it was a bit of technical stuff, just one piece of the technical stuff, but the properly prioritized piece. How did we change it? With feels.

But that student left with pictures, notes, drills to do, etc. He knows what it should look like, what the function of it is, and how to get to that position, both today with feels (almost all of the "after" video is just hitting a ball with "feels"), but also in a mirror so that as his feels drift and change, he can develop new feels that produce the improved mechanics.

Mechanics are how we hit the ball. There's no escaping that. Feels are how we change or enact the mechanics.

 

[mdl 172]

Plenty of people have piled on about thinking all coaching is bad, so I'll just note I also disagree with you there.

But as to your goal, I used to play every once in a while with a guy who'd been a good golfer right handed (mid to high single digit IIRC), and then was hit by a bus on his left side.  Major injuries to left hip and leg. After recovering he found he couldn't swing right handed anymore without pain, but swinging left handed didn't hurt.

So he switched and learned how to play lefty.  I met him years later, so I don't know how long it took him to learn.  But by the time I met him he was probably a 10 handicap with a nice looking swing and solid distance!