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Hacker James

more speed from "laying down" ?

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Just in fooling around I notice that I get a few MPH more by laying down at top of backswing. As much as 5 MPH.  I don't believe I will adopt this, as I do not think I would be consistent and not something I should strive for.  Its one thing to achieve a particular result with an "air" swing, but altogether different when actually hitting a  ball. So, its merely an observation.

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I need an idea of what you mean by "laying down" here.  no idea, is it a pine tilt, or that little mini-squat, or what?

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11 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

I need an idea of what you mean by "laying down" here.  no idea, is it a pine tilt, or that little mini-squat, or what?

oh I should have said "laying off", i.e. at the top, allowing the club to drop a little towards the horizontal/slightly around the body prior to downswing. I've seen it described as "magic move" or something or other. Sorry I don't explain  things well at times.

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1 minute ago, Hacker James said:

oh I should have said "laying off", i.e. at the top, allowing the club to drop a little towards the horizontal/slightly around the body prior to downswing. I've seen it described as "magic move" or something or other. Sorry I don't explain  things well at times.

thanks, I have no idea why that would give up a little extra, though it sounds like a relaxation type of move -  if I were to guess.  I bet we have some good instructors that can suss it out and comment.

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2 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

thanks, I have no idea why that would give up a little extra, though it sounds like a relaxation type of move -  if I were to guess.  I bet we have some good instructors that can suss it out and comment.

undoubtedly and I am sure will vary from individual to individual. 

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If you post a couple swings where you try to Lay off vs not, it would be easy for the guys.  It sounds like laying off is in the wrists and maybe just get a little more lag and a more ?clean/relaxed/pure? release

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16 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

undoubtedly and I am sure will vary from individual to individual. 

 

22 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

oh I should have said "laying off", i.e. at the top, allowing the club to drop a little towards the horizontal/slightly around the body prior to downswing. I've seen it described as "magic move" or something or other. Sorry I don't explain  things well at times.

One thing that could increase the swing speed with a motion similar to this is making sure your shoulders are “down” they shouldn’t “float around”. They should be relaxed and “set” onto the torso. This is so as you turn them they don’t detract from the speed being developed by floating around separately from the torso.

That’s the only thing I can think of where any action like “laying down the shoulders” could possibly increase the swing speed?

I’d be interested in hearing more knowledgeable responses as well...

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6 minutes ago, Lihu said:

making sure your shoulders are “down” they shouldn’t “float around”.

this is the problem with anything other than video - I read lay down as merely the head of the club dropping towards parallel at the puase at the top (subtly relaxing the wrists and letting the swing take over with less tension where it's not required).  You read it as the torso pulling into a unit (engaging the core of the body with the shoulders (cleaner energy in the rotation).  Two totally different interpretations.  fun stuff isn't it?

that's why good instructors make the 'medium' bucks.

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38 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

oh I should have said "laying off", i.e. at the top, allowing the club to drop a little towards the horizontal/slightly around the body prior to downswing. I've seen it described as "magic move" or something or other. Sorry I don't explain  things well at times.

There is a motion called "float loading" where you allow the shaft to continue to load after you start the downswing. The feel is similar to what is shown in the pitching video below, but at the top of the backswing. Essentially, you don't fully hinge the wrist until after you start the downswing.

 

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7 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

this is the problem with anything other than video - I read lay down as merely the head of the club dropping towards parallel at the puase at the top (subtly relaxing the wrists and letting the swing take over with less tension where it's not required).  You read it as the torso pulling into a unit (engaging the core of the body with the shoulders (cleaner energy in the rotation).  Two totally different interpretations.  fun stuff isn't it?

that's why good instructors make the 'medium' bucks.

I’ve been known to incorrectly read things many times 🤪

I was imagining that he didn’t describe the feeling or move correctly.

Yeah, video would help. 😁

Yeah, flat lead wrist helps as well...

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43 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

this is the problem with anything other than video - I read lay down as merely the head of the club dropping towards parallel at the puase at the top (subtly relaxing the wrists and letting the swing take over with less tension where it's not required).  You read it as the torso pulling into a unit (engaging the core of the body with the shoulders (cleaner energy in the rotation).  Two totally different interpretations.  fun stuff isn't it?

that's why good instructors make the 'medium' bucks.

that is basically what is my take on it. I think I may have read it from Hank Haney or maybe Zach Allen. No video as I do not deem it as all that important, just a curiosity item from swing speed increase observation.  Thanks to all

 

 

Edited by Hacker James

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20 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

that is basically what is my take on it. I think I may have read it from Hank Haney or maybe Zach Allen. No video as I do not deem it as all that important, just a curiosity item from swing speed increase observation.  Thanks to all

Just curious why you don’t deem a 5mph increase in SS all that important? That’s kind of huge, actually?

Edited by Lihu

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fwiw, and owing to some of the responses above, I did a quickie search and found that to be one of Hogan's moves which he describes in a couple of different ways, one being that the down swing plane and shift of the imaginary glass .  Others describe this as a "flaw" that needs fixing, others describe it as something to be strived for. In paying attention  to this, I "feel" as if the swing has more power, but  "feel" is not...yadda yadda". I do see it as one  method to aid in  shallowing out the down swing, but as with any thing else, care must be used so as not to misconstrue.

 

6 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Just curious why you don’t deem a 5mph increase in SS all that important? That’s kind of huge, actually?

not exactly. While it may be significant as you say, with my anemic swing, it doesn't make all that much difference in  results although I have picked up 15 to 20 yards since beginning speed training (or my version of same).

 

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11 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

not exactly. While it may be significant as you say, with my anemic swing, it doesn't make all that much difference in  results although I have picked up 15 to 20 yards since beginning speed training (or my version of same).

Doesn’t sound anemic any more? 😊

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10 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Doesn’t sound anemic any more? 😊

haha.. E=MC2

 

 

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I believe this "laying off" move is the same as "shallowing the club", both done at the transition from backswing to downswing. It's touted by several online instructors. Zach Allen comes to mind but there are others as well. I think it's one of those kind of moves where if you don't have the coordination/skill to do it just perfectly or the inability/desire to practice it for 8 hours/day you can easily overdo it with disastrous results.

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@xrayvizhen Yes, that sounds about right. Certainly nothing new. I can do it fairly well with irons, but driver, not so much. It's one of those things that feel good one day, but different on others. 

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Shallowing doesn't inherently increase speed, and can often decrease speed a little bit if the arms and hands are lower too.

Sometimes shallowing lets a golfer use the body's rotation more, though, result in higher swing speeds by secondary effects. Or sometimes it can load the wrists more (though I'd argue that going across the line tends to load the wrists the most).

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