Will the New Flagstick Rule Become a Fiasco?

[Zengolfer]

IMO, people are making a big deal out of nothing.  Leave the flag in, take it out; whatever, who cares.

[Chasing_Bogeys]

As many have said, I plan to leave it in, but won't be particular about it. If I'm hitting a long putt I'm probably away and will just say "leave it in" and then I'll do whatever the rest of the group wants after I tap in my 1-footer that I left myself (allow me to dream a little here please). If I've got a 10 footer and I'm 3rd to putt and it gets pulled I'll leave it out.

My concern about pace of play is that the groups that are already a little slow will want to put it in and take it out 3 times each green. Groups that are keeping pace are going to be aware and will adjust order of putting or adjust their preference to keep things moving.

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, Zengolfer said:

who cares.

Plenty of people.

[Vinsk]

25 minutes ago, Zengolfer said:

who cares.

[boogielicious]

16 hours ago, Vinsk said:

The future will have holograms for flag sticks. Fluorescent orange tube of light coming from a quarter sized flat projector at the bottom of the cup. No more flag issues. 

No No No. A "Laser". It will disintegrate the ball causing you to buy more!

[rehmwa]

I keep seeing "it's a benefit for longer putts" - it's a benefit for ALL putts - if your speed is good for any putt, it's a wash.  there is zero reason to pull it for ANY putts, IMO.

as soon as people realize that, just leave the flag in all the time - one less thing to worry about.

The only negative I can think of is I lay my wedges, etc if I have them on the flag to keep my grips dry and to remind me to pick them up and not leave them on the green.  I'll likely have to go back a couple times now to get my clubs until I develop a replacement habit/routine.

in the meantime - I'm not going to do anything - if it's in already I leave it.  if it's out, I leave it.  if the group is jockeying it in and out, I laugh and just enjoy the day.

Edited January 18, 2019 by rehmwa

[RussUK]

Hey, the rule is good for me. I'm a lazy sod so anything that means i dont have to take the flag out, put it down, pick it up and put it in the cup again is a win-win in my book

[iacas]

1 hour ago, rehmwa said:

I keep seeing "it's a benefit for longer putts" - it's a benefit for ALL putts

To be clear, it's not a benefit (nor the opposite of a benefit, really) on all putts, because it doesn't "benefit" putts that don't hit the flagstick with appreciable speed. It doesn't benefit a putt that, without the flagstick, would go in. It can only knock a ball out that would have gone in. It almost never does that, but that's the only possible alternative outcome to "that ball will go in 100% of the time."

1 hour ago, rehmwa said:

there is zero reason to pull it for ANY putts, IMO.

If you don't like to have it in, if the flag is flapping around and is distracting, or the shadow is nearby and distracting, or it's already taken out and you don't want to put it back in for your four-footer… etc.

1 hour ago, rehmwa said:

as soon as people realize that, just leave the flag in all the time - one less thing to worry about.

Maybe. That'd be about the only way the USGA/R&A would be right in saying it'll save time.

[rehmwa]

59 minutes ago, iacas said:

To be clear, it's not a benefit (nor the opposite of a benefit, really)

No problem with this - my "all" comment was just that the flag bleeds off unnecessary energy for any putt that gets to that flag.  Knocking off a little extra kinetic energy off a putt that'll drop regardless doesn't improve the outcome since you can't make the ball 'stay in even more' (binary outcome).  Agree it's grossly rare for any odd scenario for the flag to make it worse rather than better.  But rare doesn't necessarily equal zero....  I think the parenthetical you put there is pretty much my point.

The other argument for flag in on short putts (already made) is one is more comfy hitting a short putt firm.  But I'd say that still falls under "good speed" for that putt.

I'm ok with all your points though.  the distraction thing doesn't bug me, but that's my subjective personal.  it could for others.

Edited January 18, 2019 by rehmwa

[saevel25]

I will be interested to see if having the flagstick in on shorter straight putts will help improve my aim. 

I plan on keeping the flagstick in on any putt outside of 40FT and for most moderate to severe downhill putts.

For the most part my distance control inside of 30 FT is pretty good. 

[JetFan1983]

I've played one round in 2019 and I wasn't grouped with anyone I didn't know, but I definitely have thought about how this could lead to a contentious argument with a stranger who is insistent that they keep the flag out. I leave it in on all shots, or plan to. I won't keep putting it back in if there's a random playing partner who is constantly removing it though. I just don't think it's worth it to slow everyone down, but I could see how this could lead to some intense conversation. I'm typically not one who just lets people get away with spreading bad information, so you could say I'm the type who isn't afraid to not be agreeable, even if the result is something of a Pyrrhic victory for me. 

Basically, I'm mentally preparing myself for this inevitable situation, and my plan is to reduce the amount of condescension I contribute to the debate. The last thing I need right now is to get into a fist fight with a senior citizen who refuses to listen to reason 

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I plan on keeping the flagstick in on any putt outside of 40FT and for most moderate to severe downhill putts.

For the most part my distance control inside of 30 FT is pretty good. 

I'd shorten that to 30 or even 25 feet, Matt. Distance control will be improved, too, with better depth perception.

[rehmwa]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

For the most part my distance control inside of 30 FT is pretty good. 

Mine stinks, but since I'm usually short of the hole/stick, it won't matter.  If it encourages me to hit harder, then I'm being fooled, but good.   I rarely hit the hole from those distances anyway.  But I'll take what I can - and if mentally it makes me a little more aggressive - that's also a net win.

[ChetlovesMer]

Did anyone see that MyGolfSpy put out there information on this?
They claim to have tested thousands of shots with 2 different types of flagsticks. Here's what they said:

 

- Leaving the flagstick is ALWAYS an advantage vs. taking the flagstick out.

- Leaving the flagstick in also keeps the ball closer to the hole on misses.

- The less rigid flagstick has the highest make % and least distance left after a miss.

- The most rigid flagstick is still an advantage for both makes and misses vs. flagstick out. 

- Off-center strikes on the flag still provided a higher make % vs. flagstick out.

- While the advantage is not as significant leaning the stick forward (toward the golfer) is still an advantage vs. taking the flag out. 

 

MyGolfSpy's final verdict:
"Don't let the tradition of pulling the flag out while you putt get in the way of shooting lower scores..... LEAVE THE PIN IN." 

 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Did anyone see that MyGolfSpy put out there information on this?

Yes.

That's the better topic for actually discussing this stuff. This topic is more about the "fiasco" it may or may not cause.

 

[sjduffers]

I played with 3 strangers yesterday. We had the conversation of what to do with the flagstick on the first hole, when I mentioned that the new rule allows leaving it in and that it helps statistically in most circumstances (save for leaning forward too much and wind battered flag). The response was sort of whatever... I repeated and clarified my thinking on the second hole, and one or two guys started paying attention. By the fourth hole, nobody ever took the flag out for the rest of the round.  

I felt that my mission was accomplished: people were educated and time was saved.  Just be persistent in your arguments and insist on the flag being in at all times for your own putts: the other will follow when they discover it does not hurt and might even help...

[DaveP043]

I just returned home from Palm Springs, played 6 rounds there.  We left the flagstick in most of the time, although a couple guys preferred to have it out on shorter putts.  In my view, there is the potential to save a little time if everyone chooses to leave it in.  In a "mixed" group, if all players communicate, it shouldn't slow things down.  If I'm the closest to the hole, and I know player 1 wants it out, player 2 wants it in, I simply won't set the flag down once I pull it for player 1.  I can have it back in the hole essentially as soon as the first ball stops rolling, so it wouldn't delay anything.  Its a slight change in habits, and it depends on communication, but it can work just fine.  That said, I'm talking about an ideal situation with communicative players, and I know that's not always the case.  

As for changing success rates putting, we didn't see much difference.  We saw very few putts hit the flag at significant speed and stop bear the hole, we saw only one at what appeared to be "firm holing speed" hit the stick dead center and stay out.  I know that's a possible outcome occasionally, and doesn't do anything to disprove the statistics, but I wonder if those occasional occurrences will make a player a bit gun-shy.  I'm probably going to consider leaving the pin out for putts that I consider to be make-able, 15 feet and closer without a severe slope.  

[iacas]

40 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

In a "mixed" group, if all players communicate, it shouldn't slow things down.

And in a mixed group when there's a hiccup in communication, it will slow things down (or people will be putting without their preferred situation).

40 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

We saw very few putts hit the flag at significant speed and stop bear the hole

Of course. This isn't going to average out to happening multiple times per round.

40 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

we saw only one at what appeared to be "firm holing speed" hit the stick dead center and stay out.

Highly, highly, highly unlikely. Like thousands to one odds. It was far, far more likely to hit the back of the hole and pop up and out.

40 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I know that's a possible outcome occasionally, and doesn't do anything to disprove the statistics, but I wonder if those occasional occurrences will make a player a bit gun-shy.

Player perception is powerful, even though it's often wrong. 🙂 So yes, that matters, and is why we didn't give the advice (I'll link to it below) to just leave the flagstick in all the time.

40 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm probably going to consider leaving the pin out for putts that I consider to be make-able, 15 feet and closer without a severe slope.  

Yeah… https://lowestscorewins.com/tips/putting-with-the-flagstick-in

 That doesn't account for the times from shorter range when the flagstick could help you aim or let you hit a tricky putt a bit more firmly to "take some break out" or something.