My Flagstick In vs. Out Data

[Double Mocha Man]

47 minutes ago, chop said:

I like it in and out but mostly out. It depends on the putt and if the pin is leaning and my confidence level on any given putt.  I've missed putts with the pin that I thought would have gone in and didn't and vice versa. 
When playing with average golfers I will say take it out on a hole and the other guys never say put it back in after I putt.  I like it out mostly. It's a better visual for me with no distractions like shadows or leaning pins. The hole just looks more receptive without a pin in. So, I ignore the data although I appreciate it. 

They should have never made that rule.  Too much confusion on the green... too many questions have to be asked, have to be answered.

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, Double Mocha Man said:

They should have never made that rule.  Too much confusion on the green... too many questions have to be asked, have to be answered.

I totally disagree. I'm actually really happy this discussion is still a discussion. 

Every day I hear people arguing about masks (that's still a discussion) along with vaccines. Or arguing about the economy (that will always be a discussion) about taxes (again, a discussion that won't go away) about racisms or now even gender identification. I'm not saying these things aren't important. But they feel like problems which there's little to nothing I can do about it. Plus the debates have real impact on people's lives. If I get involved in the discussions I risk offending people or alienating them, or worst of all sending them on a triad. 

The flag in or flag out discussion on the other hand, has almost no impact on people's lives. Plus we all have some power. We can pull the flag for you. Or put it back in for you. Plus it's a debate that doesn't matter. Even the most stanch supporter on either side knows that it only affects a very small number of putts. It's a wonderful debate. So refreshing in its insignificance. 👍😁👍

BTW - I just leave the flag in all the time. I'm pretty certain it hasn't had even the tiniest effect on my putting stats. If somebody else wanted it out. I just leave it out. Again, I'm pretty sure it has absolutely no effect on my putting stats. 

If my feet were held to the fire I think I'd have to say that leaving the flag in would in the very long run help. I also believe the Earth is relatively spherical and that we did in fact land men on the moon. But what do I know? 

Edited September 20, 2022 by ChetlovesMer

[Jeremie Boop]

The biggest impact leaving the stick in has had for me is it just speeds up my already fast solo rounds

I have long since given up telling people that leaving the flag in is better than taking it out because you can't argue with the "one time I hit a perfect putt/chip and it would have gone in if the flag was out" person.

[JetFan1983]

After my six year hiatus, I have to say that one of the nicest things about playing again is getting to take advantage of the new flagstick rule. Such an easy way for me to gain a bit of separation from the average amateur by leaving it in. It definitely helps me with depth perception and judging distance. I feel like I miss smaller now.

[colin007]

I think some here are underestimating how often the stick helps them. It helps me on almost every putt

[chop]

On 9/20/2022 at 12:18 PM, Double Mocha Man said:

They should have never made that rule.  Too much confusion on the green... too many questions have to be asked, have to be answered.

I think I agree with that. I feel like I can't really get a good read when the pin is in.

[Jeremie Boop]

Recently I saw @mcanadiensgive a clinic on why leaving the pin in is such a beneficial thing. I think he banged 3 or more putts into the pin and they dropped in that otherwise may have jumped the hole. Was a solid reminder to me why I always leave it in myself.

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, chop said:

I think I agree with that. I feel like I can't really get a good read when the pin is in.

Why?

[mcanadiens]

23 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

Recently I saw @mcanadiensgive a clinic on why leaving the pin in is such a beneficial thing. I think he banged 3 or more putts into the pin and they dropped in that otherwise may have jumped the hole. Was a solid reminder to me why I always leave it in myself.

Gotta have those nice dead flagsticks. They just absorb all that ball's love and let it go home.

 

[bkuehn1952]

I am starting to re-think my "always in except when severely leaning" approach. In the past couple months I have had properly paced putts from 7 to 10 feet that appeared to be lipping in contact the flagstick and stay out. The contact with the flagstick is audible. The ball is going in on the high side and there is a "tink" and the ball stays out. It happened again today and it is very irritating. The flagstick is centered and to hit the flagstick indicates to me that the ball was well inside the hole. Something for me to think about. Grumble grumble.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

In the past couple months I have had properly paced putts from 7 to 10 feet that appeared to be lipping in contact the flagstick and stay out.

A putt can't "lip in" and hit the flagstick until it's already "in" the hole (assuming a centered flagstick). The entire ball fits between the side wall of the hole and the flagstick.

That said… I would re-think your "always in" thing, too, though. My rule is:

• If you're going to control pace to within about three feet of the hole (past the hole), take it out. It can only hurt you.
• If you're not going to do that the vast majority of the time, leave it in. This includes putts over x feet and almost every chip, etc. Odds are it will help you.

For me, that might be 35 to 40 feet. For most, it's closer to 20 or 25 feet.

3 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

The ball is going in on the high side and there is a "tink" and the ball stays out.

See the geometry above…

3 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

The flagstick is centered and to hit the flagstick indicates to me that the ball was well inside the hole.

The equator of the ball has to be below the lip and INSIDE the lip for it to contact the flagstick. I don't think you saw what you think you saw.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

If you're going to control pace to within about three feet of the hole (past the hole), take it out. It can only hurt you.

I witnessed one of these in my tournament last week. FC hit a 3’ putt, looked to be dead center of the hole at the right speed. Took a funny bounce off the stick and got rejected. Lessons were learned, that day.

Off topic, but the same guy later pitched on and hit the flagstick, also not holed. I was too far away to judge that ball, though I suspect he would have been closer to 4’ away had he not hit it instead of having a tap-in, so maybe the course gave one back to him 😃

[bkuehn1952]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:30 PM, iacas said:

..The equator of the ball has to be below the lip and INSIDE the lip for it to contact the flagstick. I don't think you saw what you think you saw.

 

I know I heard the ball contact the flagstick. It is possible I did not notice the flagstick leaning and/or the breeze may have wobbled the flagstick, which would have narrowed the space for the ball to fit between the flagstick and hole liner.

Thank you for the feedback/information. I agree with your idea to remove the flag when close enough to hit a controlled pace putt. Maybe within about 15 feet for me. 😉

[Loud7273]

The group I play with always leaves the Flagstick in. We all agree it speeds up play. The only problem I have is retrieving the ball from the hole. Of course I am old and a little heavy so that may be the issue also.

[StuM]

2 hours ago, Loud7273 said:

The group I play with always leaves the Flagstick in. We all agree it speeds up play. The only problem I have is retrieving the ball from the hole. Of course I am old and a little heavy so that may be the issue also.

I often see people have difficulty removing the ball when the flag is is.  Many just pull the flag up quickly to pop the ball out of the hole.  

On 5/4/2023 at 4:30 PM, iacas said:

That said… I would re-think your "always in" thing, too, though. My rule is:

• If you're going to control pace to within about three feet of the hole (past the hole), take it out. It can only hurt you.
• If you're not going to do that the vast majority of the time, leave it in. This includes putts over x feet and almost every chip, etc. Odds are it will help you.

I caught up on reading this thread since it got bumped and I like Erik's rule above.  I think I start pulling it on the short putts.  

[Carl3]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:30 PM, iacas said:

A putt can't "lip in" and hit the flagstick until it's already "in" the hole (assuming a centered flagstick). The entire ball fits between the side wall of the hole and the flagstick.

That said… I would re-think your "always in" thing, too, though. My rule is:

• If you're going to control pace to within about three feet of the hole (past the hole), take it out. It can only hurt you.
• If you're not going to do that the vast majority of the time, leave it in. This includes putts over x feet and almost every chip, etc. Odds are it will help you.

For me, that might be 35 to 40 feet. For most, it's closer to 20 or 25 feet.

See the geometry above…

The equator of the ball has to be below the lip and INSIDE the lip for it to contact the flagstick. I don't think you saw what you think you saw.

OK, I am a little confused. I read the original post and had been leaving the pin in the past few years as it was deemed to provide an advantage. Is the idea now to take it out except for situations when it is anticipated that the ball would have a velocity to run more than 3 feet by? Or on putts where you are trying to get it to fall into the high side? wouldn't that be all putts with a decent break?

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

I read the original post and had been leaving the pin in the past few years as it was deemed to provide an advantage.

On the whole, leaving the flagstick in is an advantage.

2 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

Is the idea now to take it out except for situations when it is anticipated that the ball would have a velocity to run more than 3 feet by?

If the ball is going to go 3' by or less, and you're very confident in that, capture speed says that a ball can fall into the hole at that type of speed without even really touching the flagstick, so the flagstick offers no advantage and can only (rarely) deflect a ball out.

2 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

Or on putts where you are trying to get it to fall into the high side? wouldn't that be all putts with a decent break?

I don't know where you're getting this. The illustration only shows that a ball can fall between the side of the hole and the flagstick without touching either, so a ball can't "lip in" (i.e. some of the ball is outside of the hole or on the lip) and touch the flagstick at the same time.

@bkuehn1952 had said that he thought he saw putts that were going to "lip in" contact the flagstick and come out. I illustrated how that's basically impossible, as the equator of the ball has to be fully inside the hole and even then there's still room for the ball to not touch the flagstick.

[pganapathy]

I prefer leaving the flagstick in for all shots.  Most of the time I pull my own clubs and the time and energy saved matters.  When I have a caddie (always during tournaments and on specific courses) then I don't mind removing the flagstick inside about 10 or max 20 feet.  Beyond that distance I like it in since it gives me a good visual guide.  Of course, depending on the group I am with, some of them like the flagstick out, so I never argue with them on "in or out"