Adam Scott Begs For Slow Play Penalty

[iacas]

Quote

Adam Scott said he recently told the PGA Tour’s chief of tournaments and competitions Andy Pazder that he’d be willing to take a penalty in order to get guys to speed up, the theory being that the tour would show that it was serious about pace of play and enforcing a penalty that is rarely enforced.

“Make me the victim,” the 2013 Masters champion and 13-time PGA Tour winner said. “I’ll take the penalty. The only way it’s going to work is if you enforce it.”

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/adam-scotts-solution-to-the-tours-slow-play-problem-ill-take-the-penalty

[DaveP043]

I applaud Adam for sayig this, but if he's this aware, he's probably one player who doesn't violate the slow play rules.  I've wondered whether its lack of enforcement, or whether the policy is just  too lenient.  As I understand it, you have to be pretty far behind the group in front of you to get put on the clock.  Then when you get a "bad time" you get what amounts to a second warning.  A second bad time gets a stroke penalty.  I don't have any way of knowing for sure whether players manage to play just fast enough when the clock starts for their group, or whether some of them do get a pass.  

In my opinion, the policy could be tightened somewhat.  But if the current policy isn't being enforced, a policy change wouldn't make a difference, unless there's a change in enforcement.  I absolutely agree with Adam, the players won't really care until someone gets a penalty stroke in a way that matters, someone with a big name, or someone near the lead.

[saevel25]

Big applause to Scott and Koepka who have recently spoken out against the glacial pace the PGA Tour players are setting.

[colin007]

What would happen if Adam or Brooks just left their group due to slow play? They fall a hole behind and Adam just says, I'm playing on?

[saevel25]

4 minutes ago, colin007 said:

What would happen if Adam or Brooks just left their group due to slow play? They fall a hole behind and Adam just says, I'm playing on?

I've seen something similar happen once. I remember one golfer was done with his playing partner and finished the hole before the guy even got to the point of hitting his 2nd shot. He didn't want to get a slow play penalty.

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I've seen something similar happen once. I remember one golfer was done with his playing partner and finished the hole before the guy even got to the point of hitting his 2nd shot. He didn't want to get a slow play penalty.

Wasn't this Rory Sabbatini leaving Ben Crane?  The way I remember this being reported, Rory was just tired of playing slow,  I don't remember that he was worried about being penalized.  

[David in FL]

Kudos to Adam Scott!  

[saevel25]

10 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Wasn't this Rory Sabbatini leaving Ben Crane?  The way I remember this being reported, Rory was just tired of playing slow,  I don't remember that he was worried about being penalized.  

That could be true. I wasn't sure either, it's been a while since that happened. I just remember him rushing on.

[Yukari]

It's shameful how PGA tour seems to enforce all the rule EXCEPT for the pace of play.  Good for Adam and Brook for shining more light on this issue.

[DaveP043]

37 minutes ago, Yukari said:

It's shameful how PGA tour seems to enforce all the rule EXCEPT for the pace of play.  Good for Adam and Brook for shining more light on this issue.

Again, do we know that the Tour is choosing not to enforce the policy, or is the policy simply too lenient?  It takes an awful lot to fall behind and get on the clock, get warned once for a bad time, and get yet another bad time to get penalized.  

[colin007]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

That could be true. I wasn't sure either, it's been a while since that happened. I just remember him rushing on.

So there's no penalty then? I feel like shaming slow players would be effective as well, publicly showing the world that you're not gonna wait, just leave those guys behind and play ahead until you catch up to the next group. I would totally do that

[phillyk]

9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 It takes an awful lot to fall behind and get on the clock, get warned once for a bad time, and get yet another bad time to get penalized.  

Eh, I've gotten put on the clock at a US Open qualifier pretty fast after falling a bit behind.  We started off having to call an official because a guy didn't know his options for an unplayable.  I tried to help, but he preferred an official tell him the same thing I did. Anyway, we also had to look for a few balls, and by the 5th hole, we were one hole behind and the officials told us we were on the clock. They measured our times and stayed with us for two holes before leaving.

The USGA and PGA Tour are different in administering rules, but I'm 99% sure that the Tour is intentionally not following the pace of play rules.  A couple possible reasons why: more time playing means more money for almost everyone involved(tv time, people buying stuff, etc.), the Tour is run, really, by the players and if they all want to play slow then they play slow.  I think it would be great if they started to enforce pace, but I doubt anything will happen.

[iacas]

42 minutes ago, colin007 said:

So there's no penalty then? I feel like shaming slow players would be effective as well, publicly showing the world that you're not gonna wait, just leave those guys behind and play ahead until you catch up to the next group. I would totally do that

Thing is you'd catch up to the group in front of you pretty quickly. It's not very often that a group is actually one hole behind.

That's the problem. If every fifth or eighth group has one slow player, EVERYONE has to play slowly. The whole course is backed up.

[DaveP043]

47 minutes ago, phillyk said:

The USGA and PGA Tour are different in administering rules, but I'm 99% sure that the Tour is intentionally not following the pace of play rules.  A couple possible reasons why: more time playing means more money for almost everyone involved(tv time, people buying stuff, etc.), the Tour is run, really, by the players and if they all want to play slow then they play slow.  I think it would be great if they started to enforce pace, but I doubt anything will happen.

Do you have evidence or personal experience to back this up?  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I've read lots of people talk about the Tour's lack of enforcement, but not seen evidence of it.  As @iacas says above, its hard to fall a complete hole behind, and a group is likely to be able to catch back up when another slow play "ripple" slows the groups ahead.  I do undersand the same as you, the PGA Tour pace of play policy is developed largely by the players themselves, so they have the ability to change it if enough of them want to.

As something of an aside, I chuckled when I read Koepka's complaint that the Tour did have that "40 second rule", and that they weren't enforcing it.  Perhaps someone should show him the 40 second suggestion in the Rules of Golf, and the PGA Tour Player Handbook and its Pace of Play Policy, so he understands the difference.

[phillyk]

11 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Do you have evidence or personal experience to back this up?

I don't.  It's based on what I wrote before.

This morning on hole 10 (only 306yds) at Riviera the players are teeing off, then waving up groups so as not to create a bottleneck later in the day, so they address pace in a way, but that is more of a functional pace fix (design).  The formal pace is the players themselves taking their time.  I don't know that there is a downside to taking their time on the course, they have only to gain.  The fans will stay, the players have no where to go (it's their job), the tv's will stay.  So why enforce any pace standards?

Edited February 14, 2019 by phillyk

[colin007]

29 minutes ago, iacas said:

Thing is you'd catch up to the group in front of you pretty quickly. It's not very often that a group is actually one hole behind.

That's the problem. If every fifth or eighth group has one slow player, EVERYONE has to play slowly. The whole course is backed up.

Yeah, I figured as much, but I think symbolically it would be pretty powerful, seeing a fellow player leave your group because you're slow?

Also, the biggest component of slow play that I see every week is players not starting their mental pre shot routine/caddy conversation/yardage assessment until after the player away has hit. INFURIATING.

[boogielicious]

17 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Do you have evidence or personal experience to back this up?  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I've read lots of people talk about the Tour's lack of enforcement, but not seen evidence of it.  As @iacas says above, its hard to fall a complete hole behind, and a group is likely to be able to catch back up when another slow play "ripple" slows the groups ahead.  I do undersand the same as you, the PGA Tour pace of play policy is developed largely by the players themselves, so they have the ability to change it if enough of them want to.

As something of an aside, I chuckled when I read Koepka's complaint that the Tour did have that "40 second rule", and that they weren't enforcing it.  Perhaps someone should show him the 40 second suggestion in the Rules of Golf, and the PGA Tour Player Handbook and its Pace of Play Policy, so he understands the difference.

Weren't Mickelson and Casey more than a hole behind in the final last week? Everyone else finished and they didn't even start 17.

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, phillyk said:

So why enforce the rule?

For the same reason every other rule is enforced.  Because its a rule.  

And having attended a few PGA events, and having volunteered at 4 different US Opens, most of the people there would prefer to have things go a bit faster.  Pushing players to the last bit of daylight can make it much more difficult to properly read greens, so it adds competitive inequalities beyond the normal ones like variable weather.   It interferes with the lives of officials and volunteers alike.   Starting the last bit of a Thursday round early Friday morning throws off the schedule of everyone who is required to be there.  Not to mention, forcing reasonably fast players to severely slow their pace, while allowing slow players to change nothing, also alters the competitive playing field.  

Just now, boogielicious said:

Weren't Mickelson and Casey more than a hole behind in the final last week? Everyone else finished and they didn't even start 17.

I honestly don't know, I wasn't paying enough attention.  But even if they were, and were warned that they were on the clock, as long as they didn't exceed the allotted time, twice, there wouldn't be a penalty.  I seem also to remember that pace of play enforcement was not in force for that tournament, due to the presence of the amateur partners even through the final round.