Should Club Manufacturers Have to Standardize Loft?

[Ty_Webb]

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

400 microseconds.

Aka not very long at all. Out of curiosity do you know if that is the same with all shots or is driver faster than a putter say? Or slower? Or a wedge perhaps?

 

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Aka not very long at all. Out of curiosity do you know if that is the same with all shots or is driver faster than a putter say? Or slower? Or a wedge perhaps?

You can find this information online.

[ChetlovesMer]

59 minutes ago, iacas said:

400 microseconds.

So like less than half a thousandth.  

That's not much time for me hook it off the fairway, but somehow I manage to do it from time to time. 

[Nail]

I have ap1’s and to have consistent gaps I have 5 “wedges” lol. The ap1 pw is 43* I believe and I got a “W” with the set which is 48* afaik. I then have 52,56 and 60 wedges so I have 5 but I don’t have anything really different than someone with blades that have 4 wedges. 

My PW is basically like a better players 9 iron club. 

[BombsAway]

Bottom line: Iron lofts should vary between sets. Game improvement irons are made for shorter hitters, so they need to have more degrees of loft between clubs to maintain that 10-15 yard gap between clubs. Likewise, players clubs (for advanced players with high swing speeds) need to have less loft between clubs to prevent the yardage gaps from being huge. So if both sets start with a ~45* pitching wedge, it's obvious that both sets would not have the same loft on a 7 iron. 

I tested out some Titleist AP3s, which have strong lofts. The 7 iron was basically a strong 6 iron that carried just shy of 200 yards, leaving a 60 yard gap between the PW and 7 that would have to be made up with the 8 and 9 irons. I much prefer traditional lofts that keep the gaps around ~12 yards instead of 30. 

[David in FL]

5 minutes ago, BombsAway said:

 

I tested out some Titleist AP3s, which have strong lofts. The 7 iron was basically a strong 6 iron that carried just shy of 200 yards, leaving a 60 yard gap between the PW and 7 that would have to be made up with the 8 and 9 irons. I much prefer traditional lofts that keep the gaps around ~12 yards instead of 30. 

While the AP-3’s do have stronger lofts, the gaps between the 7 iron and PW are identical between the AP2’s and the AP3’s.  

In fact, except for a one degree difference between the 6 and 7 irons only, the gaps are identical throughout both sets, 3-iron through PW.

[BombsAway]

Regardless of how AP3 lofts compare to AP2s, the AP3 yardage gaps are still best suited for mid to higher handicaps and not suitable for long hitters. If I hit a set of irons built like hybrids, even if the lofts were identical to the weakest lofted set, the yardage gaps would likely be huge, and that's all that matters. 

[David in FL]

34 minutes ago, BombsAway said:

Regardless of how AP3 lofts compare to AP2s, the AP3 yardage gaps are still best suited for mid to higher handicaps and not suitable for long hitters. If I hit a set of irons built like hybrids, even if the lofts were identical to the weakest lofted set, the yardage gaps would likely be huge, and that's all that matters. 

 I actually have a slightly larger yardage gap in my longer irons with my AP2’s than in the AP3’s that I also tested extensively.  The reason being that the added loft actually increases my carry in those clubs due to my relatively lower swing speed.  

Of course, YMMV, but I certainly wouldn’t expect swing speed alone to drive a significant difference in the individual yardage gaps.  I’d also caution anyone considering either set to avoid making that assumption without actually testing them, with different shaft options, themselves.  

 

 

[onthehunt526]

As stated above by a few fellow Sand Trap members, a lot of the problem people perceive with static loft is GAPPING. 

I'm going to write up this little blurb for you guys to bring my point of view to the table. I think people get caught up in static loft way too much. Why? I'm honestly not sure. Take a 25-handicap who hits their 30° 7-iron 130 yards, GI or SGI irons in this case are a good choice with higher launch angle and lower spin so they can get a little more carry. But Shane what about GAPPING? In this case the fact that they have a 34° 8-iron they hit 120 yards, a 38° 9-iron they hit say 110 yards and their 43° PW they hit 100 yards, if they are carrying 4 wedges (i.e. AP1 W48, W53, and maybe a Vokey 58°) that they hit 90, 75, 65 yards respectively, their gapping is good.

Take me for instance with my Taylormade M6 irons. I hit the 7-iron 180 yards (approximately), 8-iron 165 yards, 9-iron 150 yards, PW 135, AW 115. My gaps are entirely too big to be honest. And I really shouldn't be hitting these clubs. (I hit them high, really high). To be honest, I should either be playing players cavity irons, or a Players/GI iron with some workability.

In SGI and GI irons the static loft of the PW is between 43° and 45°. (GI is usually closer to 45°). The issue is how they get from that 45° PW to whatever the 3 or 4 iron is. I'll use my M6 as an example 49° AW, 43.5° PW, 38° 9i, 33° 8i, 28.5° 7i, 25° 6i, 21.5° 5i, 19° 4i.

What happened to the days when you could have a 45° PW but still have a 21° -23° 4i?  It doesn't really matter though because static loft is only one ingredient in the equation.

[ncates00]

9 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

As stated above by a few fellow Sand Trap members, a lot of the problem people perceive with static loft is GAPPING. 

I'm going to write up this little blurb for you guys to bring my point of view to the table. I think people get caught up in static loft way too much. Why? I'm honestly not sure. Take a 25-handicap who hits their 30° 7-iron 130 yards, GI or SGI irons in this case are a good choice with higher launch angle and lower spin so they can get a little more carry. But Shane what about GAPPING? In this case the fact that they have a 34° 8-iron they hit 120 yards, a 38° 9-iron they hit say 110 yards and their 43° PW they hit 100 yards, if they are carrying 4 wedges (i.e. AP1 W48, W53, and maybe a Vokey 58°) that they hit 90, 75, 65 yards respectively, their gapping is good.

Take me for instance with my Taylormade M6 irons. I hit the 7-iron 180 yards (approximately), 8-iron 165 yards, 9-iron 150 yards, PW 135, AW 115. My gaps are entirely too big to be honest. And I really shouldn't be hitting these clubs. (I hit them high, really high). To be honest, I should either be playing players cavity irons, or a Players/GI iron with some workability.

In SGI and GI irons the static loft of the PW is between 43° and 45°. (GI is usually closer to 45°). The issue is how they get from that 45° PW to whatever the 3 or 4 iron is. I'll use my M6 as an example 49° AW, 43.5° PW, 38° 9i, 33° 8i, 28.5° 7i, 25° 6i, 21.5° 5i, 19° 4i.

What happened to the days when you could have a 45° PW but still have a 21° -23° 4i?  It doesn't really matter though because static loft is only one ingredient in the equation.

15 yards is, in my opinion, the high end of acceptable gapping. Still acceptable and a good round number in my opinion. I think people often get their gaps too close more often than too far apart. 10 yards, for example, in my opinion is the low end of acceptable gapping. The problem with 10 yard gaps is with a mediocre strike you’re dropping down too much to the lesser club or if you nuke the lesser club you’re too close to higher club.

I build my yardages around my “good” shots- not my “excellent” strokes. I know I can add a good 10-12 yards to any shot I want by swinging full tilt but prefer to play my reasonable yardages. Seems to help with getting pin high more often than not and I’m not relying on a perfect strike to get it either. But I still want my higher club with a “good” strike to go as far if not slightly further than the lesser club with the full tilt “excellent” strike if that makes sense. Plus if I try to fade the ball, for me, I lose almost two clubs of distance because I just made up an over the top move to be able to play the shot when needed. It’s not easy for me to hit the fade, but I’ve managed to find a goofy way to play it haha. 

[paperclip]

On 5/9/2019 at 9:38 PM, onthehunt526 said:

I don't know if that was what the OP was getting at.

50 years ago lofts were pretty damn standard, yeah there was an oddball club or two that probably was out of the normal

1970 Standard lofts

1-wood: 11-12°

2-wood: 14°

3-wood: 17°

4-wood: 19°

5-wood: 21°

1-iron: 17°

2-iron: 20°

3-iron: 23°

4-iron: 27°

5-iron: 31°

6-iron: 35°

7-iron: 39°

8-iron: 43°

9-iron: 47°

Pitching wedge: 51°

Sand wedge: 56°

Now basically move every iron from 3-iron through pitching wedge up 2 clubs, and add two gap wedges for the 1970 9-iron and PW and you have Titleist AP1 iron specs (though I don't think they make a 3-iron anymore). 

The main reason the 1 and 2 irons are dead are because they're really your 3 and 4 irons. If you've ever played the older irons you know how damn heavy they were, they probably had a swingweight of about D8 or so. 

Like I said, in a previous post in this thread, lofts are pretty standard in the different categories of irons. Most SGI 7-irons are 28°-30°, GI 30-32°, Players cavities 33-34°, Players blades 34°-35°. If you compare say a P-730 or P-7TW to a Titleist 718 MB, Or a Mizuno MP-18 blade, they're all within 1° of each other. Or a Titleist AP1, Callaway Rogue, TaylorMade M5, or Mizuno JPX-919 there all within 1-2° of one another, Or a TaylorMade M6, Callaway Rogue X, or Tour Edge Exotics EXS they are all within 1-2° of each other. You have to realize that when comparing iron lofts, You cannot compare an SGI loft to a Players loft. It just doesn't work that way. Each iron is designed for a different segment of golfers, the higher handicap golfer needs perimeter weighting, lower VCOG, and deeper RCOG to get the ball airborne. A mid-handicap probably needs a little less help with that. At lower handicaps we're looking to work the ball both ways (except me I don't really care about shaping it unless I have to, I'm just worried about getting it on the green as close to the hole as safe to do so, I don't care how it gets there)

Now you'd think that 5/64" of an inch doesn't make that much of a difference in launch angle. Yeah it does. Why? Because blades don't have as much face height as an SGI, and have much shorter blade length. Have you ever put an SGI iron next to a blade of the same number? The SGI iron is huge in comparison. I mean massive. So in comparison. It is much lower in the face than in a blade. Is it only 5/64"? Yes. The massive size of the SGI makes it effectively much lower. Almost all SGI irons VCOG is below the center of the ball (.84 inches). Where almost all blades are above the center of the ball.

Now do you think 5/64" doesn't make a difference? That's 5/64" difference in VCOG and 3/32" difference in RCOG is why an SGI 7-iron has to have less loft than a blade. I used to hate it now that I understand the physics of it. I accept it's premise. That is your 6.5° difference in loft. The size of the clubhead (not the total clubhead weight, blade length and face height), the VCOG and RCOG.

Most of this information I have provided is readily available on the GolfWorks website. If you look up MPF ratings, the measurements for all the newer 6-iron heads is on there. It's very interesting looking at the actual numbers.

Very well said.  And besides, if all the lofts were "standardized", then the marketing guys will lose some of their ammunition re longer, farther.......

[billchao]

6 hours ago, paperclip said:

Very well said.  And besides, if all the lofts were "standardized", then the marketing guys will lose some of their ammunition re longer, farther.......

You're looking at this backwards, IMO. Standardizing lofts hurts the consumer, because there would be less variety of products in the market.

[onthehunt526]

What we don't realize as consumers sometimes the 2 same brand/model 7-irons can vary in loft/lie by as much as 2°. I'm not kidding either. Due to manufacturing tolerances, the stated static loft, might not be the actual static loft. So that stated 30° AP1 7-iron can have anywhere between 29°-31° of loft. Try that on for size.

[paperclip]

13 hours ago, billchao said:

You're looking at this backwards, IMO. Standardizing lofts hurts the consumer, because there would be less variety of products in the market.

I was trying to be funny :(