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adamthomas625

Island Green Par 3 - Drop Options

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My friend and I were finishing off our round on the 18th hole, which is an island green Par 3.

He bladed a pitching wedge from the tee and his ball hit the green before rolling off the back side of the green into the water hazard (the "X" in the picture is where his ball crossed out).

Before dropping in the drop zone, he asked me if he was allowed to drop where his ball crossed rather than the drop zone, and I honestly didn't know the answer.

He ended up dropping where his ball crossed out... Note: this green isn't quite like TPC Sawgrass hole 17 where it goes straight from green to water... This one has fringe, then some rough, then rocks. So he was able to drop in the rough right beside the fringe. 

We didn't think too much about it as I was up 7 strokes on him anyways 😈 ... But he is curious as well what he should have done there. 

So... was it okay for him to drop where his ball crossed out, given that it hit the green before going into the water? Or should he have went to the drop zone? 

Thanks!

IMG_4826.PNG

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7 hours ago, adamthomas625 said:

was it okay for him to drop where his ball crossed out,

IF, the area has a playable area anywhere from the last point of entry into the penalty area taking the POE and line of Flag as far as he deemed across the water, then it would be an option.

His other options would be - hit for original spot or drop zone.

Your photo does not show the entire body of the water, so option of line of flag may or may not the best choice.

No, he may not drop on the green side as a relief option.

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41 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

IF, the area has a playable area anywhere from the last point of entry into the penalty area taking the POE and line of Flag as far as he deemed across the water, then it would be an option.

His other options would be - hit for original spot or drop zone.

Your photo does not show the entire body of the water, so option of line of flag may or may not the best choice.

No, he may not drop on the green side as a relief option.

Wouldn't that depend if the penalty area is a red or yellow penalty area? Or does that not matter?

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44 minutes ago, klineka said:

Wouldn't that depend if the penalty area is a red or yellow penalty area? Or does that not matter?

If it's not marked its treated as a red penalty area so there is the additional option for lateral relief.

Based on the picture though, I don't see a viable lateral relief area so it's not an option. 

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13 minutes ago, billchao said:

If it's not marked its treated as a red penalty area so there is the additional option for lateral relief.

Based on the picture though, I don't see a viable lateral relief area so it's not an option. 

Assuming the hazard line is the edge of the rough and not on the rocks itself, what is wrong with dropping at the edge of the arrow (within 2 club lengths obviously)? It appears like it'd be further from the hole

image.png

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19 minutes ago, billchao said:

If it's not marked its treated as a red penalty area so there is the additional option for lateral relief.

Based on the picture though, I don't see a viable lateral relief area so it's not an option. 

The possible options for a lateral drop can depend on where the hole was cut that day too.  To give a real ruling, I'd have to be there and see just exactly what the angles were and how they affected establishing a relief point.  It looks like it might be possible like Klineka said.

Edited by Fourputt

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15 minutes ago, klineka said:

Assuming the hazard line is the edge of the rough and not on the rocks itself, what is wrong with dropping at the edge of the arrow (within 2 club lengths obviously)? It appears like it'd be further from the hole

image.png

What @Fourputt said, I'd have to see it. Your picture would work if it meets all the conditions. 

Based on what I saw in the picture in the OP (which I did not bother zoom in and redraw CSI-style 😜) I saw nothing but rocks. It's entirely possible that tiny sliver of fringe that you highlighted is within the margin of the penalty area, in which case you can't drop there.

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1 hour ago, billchao said:

If it's not marked its treated as a red penalty area so there is the additional option for lateral relief.

Based on the picture though, I don't see a viable lateral relief area so it's not an option. 

Thanks for all the responses! There actually was no line drawn to signify penalty area. But I did see red/yellow stakes around other parts of that same body of water. But yea, there was no line there to signify where the hazard actually started. So I assume it starts at the water, which would make it impossible to drop no closer to the hole because you'd be dropping on rocks.

Does that sound right?

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31 minutes ago, adamthomas625 said:

Thanks for all the responses! There actually was no line drawn to signify penalty area. But I did see red/yellow stakes around other parts of that same body of water. But yea, there was no line there to signify where the hazard actually started. So I assume it starts at the water, which would make it impossible to drop no closer to the hole because you'd be dropping on rocks.

Does that sound right?

I would think the rocks are part of the retaining or drainage structure for the green and should be considered inside the penalty area.

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19 minutes ago, billchao said:

I would think the rocks are part of the retaining or drainage structure for the green and should be considered inside the penalty area.

That's how it appears to be marked on the 17th at PGA West, the rocks look inside the penalty area

image.png

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The TPC 17th hole is similar and tee shots have come to rest within the penalty area on the stone retaining wall.
And players had the option to play it as it lies as several have done so.

But dropping in this green area is not an option. 
While I have seen players take relief from the walk path to the green which is possible.

Another option in the OP would be point where ball crossed the pond from the teeing spot, going to 
the markings and then take line of pin and go back as far as one deems.

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1 hour ago, Club Rat said:

The TPC 17th hole is similar and tee shots have come to rest within the penalty area on the stone retaining wall.
And players had the option to play it as it lies as several have done so.

But dropping in this green area is not an option. 
While I have seen players take relief from the walk path to the green which is possible.

Another option in the OP would be point where ball crossed the pond from the teeing spot, going to 
the markings and then take line of pin and go back as far as one deems.

The 17th at Sawgrass is marked with a yellow line, so the lateral option is not available there.  The only time that they don't have to replay or use the drop area is when the path of the ball and the location of the hole allow a drop on the walkway on a line from the hole through the last crossing point.  That would have been an option for Tiger the round where he took a 7 there, had he just gone up and looked it over.  Very rare case on that hole.

In the OP's case if the penalty area is not marked, then I would put the margin just above the rocks, giving at least a chance to have a lateral drop.

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45 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

In the OP's case if the penalty area is not marked, then I would put the margin just above the rocks, giving at least a chance to have a lateral drop.

It doesn't have to be marked of course - it could be written out on the scorecard, posted in the pro shop, etc.

The Committee can define the edge of the penalty area without marking it. He indicated that there were stakes, too, likely defining when it changed from yellow to red.

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