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  1. Your quote highlights something that Tiger is seldom given credit for, which is that he has never (to my knowledge) tried to lobby for himself the way Jack did. Tiger is pursuing the two biggest records in golf, namely Sam's 82 wins, and Jack's 18 majors. Tiger is a student of the game. He knows golf history. He knows that Snead (and Jack, for that matter) have gotten credit for official wins in team events, very short field events, etc. that would not compare favorably with the Tiger Challenge, let alone the weakest official event Tiger has won. There have even been articles by reputable writers detailing some of the very questionable events included in Snead's win total. And yet, Tiger has never mentioned them, never even hinted that he's already passed Sam. He has always accepted the number the PGA has posted, and has tried to surpass it under the much tougher conditions of the modern tour. Same with the majors. Tiger knows that Jack won majors against fields with only half a dozen American touring pros in the field, or with over 100 club pros in the field, but he's never pointed out how weak those fields were. When Tiger was compiling his cut streak, or winning 8 and 9 times a year, or winning six or seven consecutive events, and being compared with Nelson, Tiger never mentioned how weak the Tour was during WWII, when Nelson was setting all his records. He knew very well that Nelson's win streak was set against very depleted fields, but all he said about it was that it was a record that would never be broken. Since Tiger passed Jack in career wins years ago, major wins is the ONLY significant stat where he hasn't blown away Jack's record. Tiger has over twice as many POTYs, infinitely more (can't divide by zero) Vardons, more money titles, more of just about everything that shows more dominance over stronger fields than Jack ever faced, and yet he's never suggested that "most majors" shouldn't be the standard. He just keeps trying to surpass Jack's record. That is in marked contrast to Jack, who switched his criterion for GOAT every time it looked like he couldn't reach the old one, and lobbied vigorously for "most majors" once he had that record. So at least in this area, it seems to me that Tiger has far more integrity than Jack.
  2. That's very unfair to Jack, since he played events well into his 60's. It also distorts Tiger's record, since he played injured for several years. It would be more fair to look at the the periods when Tiger and Jack were in their primes --- 1996 through 2009 for Tiger, and 1962 through 1978 for Jack. For both men, those are the years from their rookie season to the year before they first went winless, and fell out of the top 50 in the money list. Tiger played 239 official PGA events from turning pro through 2009, including 50 majors and 30 WGCs, leaving 159 "regular" events. He won 41 of the 159 regular events, or 25.8%. He won 14 of the 50 majors, or 28.0 %. He won 16 of the 30 WGCs, or 53.3%. Jack played 345 official PGA events from 1962-1978 inclusive, including 68 majors (and obviously this was before WGC's were established), leaving 277 "regular" events. He won 67 of the 277 regular events, or 24.2%. He won 15 of the 68 majors, or 22.1%. It's interesting that Jack won nearly the same percentage of majors as regular events, and Tiger won a higher percentage of majors than regular events. There could be several explanations for it, but it certainly seems to show that for the top golfers, winning a major is not a lot harder than winning a regular event. Many of the young pros today continue that trend. Yet another reason why "most majors" should not be the sole determinant of GOAT. And one more thing I always have to add when discussing Tiger's winning percentage: the WGC stat above includes the WGC match play. Single-elimination, 18-hole match play (which it was during those years) is always a crap shoot, and not nearly as accurate as a 72-hole stroke play event in determining the best golfer. The WGC stroke play events typically had the top 70 or 80 players in the world, with no amateurs, no Asian Tour affirmative action players, no legacy champs who hadn't won in decades, and no club pros. When Tiger was making his comeback last year after several years of dismal results, he still qualified for the Players, and all four majors, but he didn't qualify for the WGCs. I think it's fair to say that almost all of the WGCs Tiger won had stronger fields than almost all of the majors Jack won. Of the stroke play WGC events of Tiger's 14-year prime, he won 13 out of 20, an unbelievable 65% winning percentage. That, my friends, is sustained dominance, the like of which we have never seen before and will never see again.
  3. We do not penalize Jack for the level of his competition. We merely note that despite facing weaker competition his record is nowhere near as dominant as Tigers in 25 different areas, and the only area he leads in is 18>15. As I have maintained for years 18>14(now 15) is the only argument the Jack supporters have - and stop the second place nonsense - no one achieves greatness by losing. @iacas used to argue with me about this, but I think it is fair to say he has come around. If you were to read back through the thread you will see that other than noting Jack's comments that tour cardholders in 1996 are the equivalent to the top players of his era, and top players in 1996 were the equivalent of superstars of his era, I have made my arguments independently of the the field issue. Partly because @iacas deals with that issue better than me but mostly because I DON'T NEED IT. If I stipulate, for the sake of argument, that they faced equally strong fields the Jack folks STLL have nothing besides 18>14/5. In any other measure of dominance Tiger is not only ahead of Jack, he is miles ahead. Whether we are talking cut streak, winning margin, winning percentage, consecutive wins - everything. I've made this challenge before - list Jack's seasons in order from best to worst. I'll so the same for Tiger. Then we can have a little match play, comparing their best seasons, second best seasons, third best season, etc. Don't bother, Tiger wins that 10 & 8. You are setting up a silly situation of transplanting them into each other's era and then claiming that because of the silly situation we really don't know anything. No one is dreaming anything about Tiger in the 60s or Jack in the 21st century. Maybe if Jack's record was remotely comparable to Tigers it might make sense, but the inescapable fact is that except for 18>14/5, Tigers record dwarfs Jacks. It is like comparing 2 basketball players at free throws. A shoots from 15 feet at a standard sizes basket. B shoots from 20 feet at a basket that is 10% smaller in size. B sinks a significantly higher percentage of baskets. Now you can apply your logic and claim that we can't say B is better than A because we don't know how they would each shoot under the other's condition. And it would be nonsense, just as it is when comparing Jack and Tiger's records.
  4. Here’s the formula with explanations (assuming you’re in the US): http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14389 Most of what you’re looking for is in sections 10-1 and 10-2 of that page. With 7 rounds, only your two rounds with lowest differentials are used to calculate your handicap index.
  5. Look at Rules 6.2b(5) and (6): I'm assuming the ball remained in the teeing area (i.e., the area two club lengths behind the tee markers). It sounds like it likely did. Assuming the player meant to hit the ball, he gets a stroke for making that stroke. Then, he can tee it back up or play it as it lies. No penalty. Once he hits that shot, he has now made 2 strokes. The rules @Pretzel quoted are for when a ball is moved when you're not making a stroke at it.
  6. Well I get your point but don’t entirely agree. It’s really being a bit stubborn to not recognize that Jack’s fields in his earlier major wins were not nearly as deep and competitive as Tiger’s. The point made regarding the chances of winning with x number of ranked, quality players compared to y is true. It’s not opinion. It’s also a fact that Tiger’s winning percentage is greater than Jack’s. It’s also fact that Tiger has won more tournaments and in a shorter time period than Jack. This isn’t a question of taking Jack from his day and playing Tiger who would win. And that doesn’t matter because it’s golf. Any golfer can beat any golfer. That of course is impossible to know. The question is taking both their careers who is the greatest golfer of all time. More stats, data, and facts point to Tiger. At least if you read through the points that @iacas, @turtleback and @brocks have presented It appears that way.
  7. Don't get greedy. If you play it back in stance, it's likely going to launch lower - watch the lip. If you bury your feet, your swing will bottom out in the sand earlier than normal - watch hitting it heavy, although it'll at least come out. Biggest killer? IMO, hitting too hard causing feet movement in sand. Easily done and a disaster. If green in range and it appears sensible (i.e. you'll have enough loft with chosen club to get out while going at it), take at least one club more and swing easy. Try to keep lower body quite/quieter than normal. If in doubt, pitch out, take medicine and challenge yourself to get up and down.
  8. Oh no, he's also only won the Open Championship when it's played in Great Britain! 😉
  9. The key for me is an absolutely quiet lower body. I use more club, grip down a bit, move the ball back a couple of inches and make a compact, armsy swing. As others have said, even a heavy miss will go 60+ yards, so the only time I pitch out is if the lie or lip requires it.
  10. Things to be thankful for: He didn't have that terrible goatee for his first majors in over a decade.
  11. Assuming no lip issues, I just put the ball back in my stance an inch or two and really try and hit down on it. It's the same thing I do if my ball happens to be in a divot hole, or a muddy lie ... any situation where too much ground too soon is gonna really screw the shot up I focus on only hitting ball. If there are lip issues, then it's still the same shot, but you have to choose the club that you know is going to clear it first.
  12. Onewheel // Future Motion Get ready to ride the best motorized skateboard when you... I like walking, but getting around the course faster does have some appeal. In a world that keeps getting busier, it's becoming increasingly more difficult for many to find place for long rounds of golf. This could be an alternative to a cart for those with the agility to use one. Won't speed up anything if you're at a fully booked course without mandatory carts of course.
  13. Remember when Tiger was doomed with the chip yips?
  14. Some people say Steve is abrasive, but I've met Steve and played golf with him and he is a kind, intelligent, and amiable person dedicated to his player. Steve has caddied for Peter Thompson, Greg Norman, Ray Floyd, Tiger, Adam Scott and has 150 wins on the tour almost double what any other caddy has done and is in the Caddy Hall of Fame. A so-called "abrasive person" could not accomplish what Steve has accomplished. Like Tiger, Steve has achieved the height of his profession and is arguably the greatest caddy in the history of golf. Tiger or any other golfer would have the advantage to have Steve as his caddy but Steve is retired now and playing golf well in New Zealand with his mates for the Southhead GC Pennants Team. Steve recently wrote an article for "Players Voice" about Tiger's Victory which everyone who is amazed at Tiger's comeback should read here > 'The rule I broke for Tiger' by Steve Williams Steve Williams wanted to see if Tiger Woods could make history at The Masters. So Tiger's former caddie broke the rule of a lifetime.
  15. This is a cool one to watch. And this quote: Reporter: "He loves the game?" Earl Woods: "No... it transcends love. He's addicted to greatness. He's addicted to being the best that has ever played the game"
  16. That sounds like a fun idea. Four guys each put together a $10 max set of used clubs from Play it Again, (I'm partial to Good Will or Salvation Army myself), and play a round. I like the way you think, Krazy. If I lived down your way I'd be in for sure!
  17. Yeah and maybe they are correct. If you just wanting a general idea of your handicap it may not matter but if you want to be precise then make sure to reference the database. Sometimes clubs don’t change the scorecards because they have thousands of them already printed with the old ratings.
  18. Stop thinking about it.
  19. I use DiabloGolf. It’s an App on my phone. One thing to note is that if you keep up with your handicap yourself make sure you check the National Course Rating Database to check the actual ratings for the course and tees you played. You would be amazed how often the scorecards are wrong.
  20. Tiger might want a different kind of caddie now than he did 15 years ago. He is older, more experienced, now has two kids and been through a rough decade. Even if he and Stevie were on good terms or if he could choose a Stevie-type he might still go for the Joey-type. Ultimately it might not matter much who's the caddie. Tiger seems in tune enough with what he's doing that I think he'd switch if he didn't find Joey to be a good fit.
  21. This is very under publicised addition to the Rules
  22. I never said anything close to that. So let me make sure I understand this right. You acknowledge that Tiger's 15 wins are more impressive than Jack's 18, but won't admit Tiger is the greatest until he gets to 18? Since you acknowledge 15 > 18, How is Jack greater than Tiger? What else has Jack done that supports your point?
  23. Once you get 20 it is the best 10/20 with some exceptions regarding tournament scores.
  24. I don't quite get the argument (Other than fun over a round of golf or beer). The conditions are different, the equipment is different, the courses are different and the competition is different. If this was track and field, no one would discount what Jesse Owens did in the 1940s because Usain Bolt is faster. Jack beat everyone out to play in 18 majors. He was the best of his era, hands down. Jack redefined the game in terms of Power, distance and clutch putting. He set a new bar for kids to aspire to. Tiger beat everyone out to play in 14 (no 15 Majors). He was the best of his era, Hands down. Tiger redefined the game in terms of power, distance, athleticism and clutch putting. He set a new bar for the next generation to aspire to. Would Jack at his prime have beat Tiger at his best??? Who knows? What would Jack have been like with modern greens and equipment? NO IDEA The question in my mind is how long will Tiger's era last? Will he surpass Jack's achievements? YES and NO. I will speculate that if you put Jack with his equipment at this prime vs Tiger with his equipment at his prime, Tiger would win because he would be hitting wedge vs Jack's 5i due to the gains in distance. But I would never bet against either of them in a fair fight.
  25. How does an average joe go about doing this? I'm not disagreeing at all. But I have a hard enough time finding a store with a bay that will let me test clubs for more than 10 minutes, let alone test something on the course. Any insights/hints/tips are appreciated.
  26. If you mean 'prove' in the mathematical sense of taking agreed upon postulates and applying rigorous logical reasoning to arrive at a result that is 100% guaranteed to be true forever (say the way we prove the Pythagorean Theorem) then obviously you are correct - but irrelevant. Because that isn't how we use that term in a sports context. But the fact is that there is nothing on Jack's side of the argument other than the simplistic 18>14, now 15. Nothing. Not.A.Thing. Every other argument for Jack (fields, technology, etc.) has been completely and comprehensively debunked - usually by Jack himself, (maybe inadvertantly) in his '96 autobiography. The other thing I find interesting is how we went from 'Jack is the GOAT' to 'it is impossible to say who the GOAT is' as soon as it became evident that he wasn't the GOAT anymore. The same people who had no trouble ignoring previous generations to pronounce Jack the GOAT (and in an old thread we had a spirited discussion on whether Hogan had a strong claim that was being completely ignored due to major mania) now claim it is impossible to compare players from different generations.
  27. This is going to sound dumb, but the ball should finish where you want it to finish. That might be in line with your feet, it might be left of your feet, or it might be right of your feet. Your feet can influence club path, but your feet alone don't dictate shot shape. It's possible to draw the ball with a stance that is closed to your target, and its possible to draw the ball with a stance that's open to your target. This might help you understand ball flights a bit more https://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws
  28. Several key pieces here, putting it all together: Play ball slightly back from normal Choke down on club Dig feet in for stability and to offset choking down Make sure you have enough loft to clear the lip Take extra club with a 3/4 swing. It helps me to take a slow backswing Going left - could be many things but my first guess is probably some sort of over the top move that is resulting in a pull from not taking a full back swing
  29. I was trying to highlight the fact that Gary Player likes to pump his own tyres and that the GOAT debate, his name never gets mentioned. FWIW as far as the influence of golf and a generation Tiger is the GOAT. Someone once said Tiger doesn’t move the needle, he is the needle.
  30. I can see that working for you and maybe others. But that’s more of a ‘feel’ thing whereas @Golfing Dad suggests something anyone can try and there’s no ‘feel’ to it really. I’m not sure I said that clearly but I hope you get what I mean..lol.
  31. Don’t disagree with 99% of what he said, but to me, the ticket is to look at the front of the ball when swinging. It’s not as easy as it seems because we are so accustomed to looking at the back of the ball. whether you have sand or not, you can practice that shot.
  32. You heard it here first! Tiger's secret to Masters success is a tune-up at TPC Sawgrass before the main event.
  33. A dozen or so years ago, when it looked like Tiger was on pace to win 25 majors, I was debating a guy on the old Golf Channel board, now defunct. He had scientifically analyzed the number of majors Jack's top opponents had won compared to Tiger's, completely oblivious not only to the strength of the fields in the 60's, but to the fact that he was comparing a 25-year span to a ten-year span. And he concluded that Jack's competition was five times as strong as Tiger's, and that Tiger therefore needed to win 90 majors before he would challenge Jack as the GOAT. I am not joking.
  34. Tiger has still only ever won the Masters when the Players was held in March.
  35. Oh yeah I know. So do the Flat Earth people.😃
  36. Because he meets literally none of the other criteria.
  37. @Golfingdad pretty much covered it. Play the ball a little back, go for clean contact. I choke down a hair on the grip if my feet dig in.
  38. The difference is that in Tiger's international wins a significant number of the best players in the world were in the field, whereas that isn't even the case for some of Player's majors, let alone for his lesser international tour wins.
  39. They will. Some people simply can not grasp that facts don’t care about feelings. They feel putting is where the real money is. They feel Jack having 18 majors is better than Tiger’s 15. If any current top ten player went and played on the Mckenzie Tour and picked up a bunch of wins (he would) then those same people would say...’yeah but that’s among a lot weaker field.’ But if you then point out that several of Jack’s early major wins had a large number of club pros who had no chance of winning they would then reply, ‘oh yeah...well he had to beat Player, Watson, Weiskop and Plamer...you call them weak players!?’ They’ll never get it because they don’t want to get it.
  40. I'm 67 years old and I started yoga training almost two months ago, three times a week, has made a difference. Yoga works on all the muscle groups including the core and especially the back. Yoga is all about strengthening the body, increasing flexibility, and balance. You might want to look into it.
  41. Hello and welcome to TST. Here you will find the Five Simple Keys. These Keys are what every great golfer has in common. Trying to teach yourself can be a very difficult journey. But this offers good guidance on where to begin. I recommend you post a video in the ‘My Swing’ thread here and many good instructors will offer you advice for free. You need to find your ‘priority piece.’ One fundamental to execute properly then move on to the next. Film your swing (your phone will do just fine)...upload your swing to YouTube then copy the url to your My Swing page and it can be viewed by us. We can get you started in the right direction but we really need to see your swing before giving any sound advice. Until then the link I sent above would be excellent for you to check out. Cheers!
  42. I think the fairway wood from the 2015 Quicken Loans is my favorite. That clip pops up on my Facebook and Instagram every now and then and I have to watch it every time. It's really unbelievable.
  43. Yes that's absolutely what I'm arguing because I believe it. He didn't run away with this tournament, he played solid and other players made mistakes. He wasnt leaps and bounds better than the field this week. The fields he is playing now are deeper and stronger than any fields he has played back in his prime so the other golfers now will absolutely be what will stop him from winning more. (Assuming he stays healthy of course) That's not how golf (or any sport) works. For all we know, one of the amateurs could have "wanted it" more than Tiger or anyone else in the field this past week, but they didnt win. Just "wanting it" doesn't mean it will happen.
  44. Knew it was an April Fools joke right away...
  45. Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond! I got into one of the demo bays at the PGA superstore and. The numbers were quite astounding. I put my 2008 Taylormade Burner, which I hit very well, up against the following and here were the averages after 5 good shots with each, from worst performing to best, all at neutral settings where adjustable: 2008 Taylormade Burner 15 deg: Launch angle: 14.6 Ball speed: 126 Carry: 205 Total: 219 Spin: 3412 (WOW) Titelist TS3 set at 15 deg: Launch Angle: 15.1 Ball Speed: 129 Carry: 211 Total: 229 Spin: 2837 (I hit this the worst in my opinion, didn't like it at all) Callaway Epic Flash set at 15 deg: Launch angle: 14.9 Ball Speed: 129 Carry: 216 Total: 233 Spin 2684 (I like this one & actually thought this would be the winner before he gave me the numbers) THE WINNER: Taylormade M6 15 deg: Launch angle: 14.8 Ball Speed: 131 Carry: 222 Total: 239 Spin: 2782 I still can't hardly believe it. I never thought there could be that much of a difference between my old burner and the new stuff, as I know *most* of the manufacturers are all about the hype. I'm no scientist, so make of it what you will. I hit about 35 shots total to get those 20 numbers, because I wanted good hits for the data. The guy at the PGA Superstore was supercool about it when I explained what I wanted to do, and would instantly erase a bad hit to preclude it from the data (toe, pull, etc). All of these shots were within 8 yds of the centerline on the foreflight, all hit from the mat. For me, this was a lot of fun as I hadn't really been much of a 'numbers' guy before this. My thoughts on getting a new fairway wood? Tough call, believe it or not. First off, even though I hit it the best, I absolutely *hate* what that Taylormade M6 looks like at address....a head that looks like a bubble with a matte finish and an orange line around it...but how do you turn down 17 yards of carry, right?!? Also, I have the Burner 5 & 7 woods that fill yardage gaps nicely when I replaced my long irons...if I go with the M6, I lose my 200-220 yard club, which is a big deal since I just got kicked up to A flight by the national office in the GolfWeek Amateur tour (8.6 handicap now), which mean blue tees for the foreseeable future. That means longer shots into the long par fours. I can now see how easy it is to go down the rabbit hole on this stuff. Lastly, there's the $299 price tag...ouch! So...rather than asking you what you think *I* should do, I'd like to hear what *you* would do! Any thoughts? Thanks in advance! P.S. I am going to demo the Tour Edge clubs next...from some of the stuff I've been reading, they may just give me an excuse to drop $1,500 and replace all of my woods lol.
  46. ‘‘Tis better to keep quiet and be thought an idiot, than to open your mouth, and remove all doubt!”
  47. In the past I have been guilty of thinking 'that is so unfair...' to some situation but am proud to say that I have a better grasp of rules as a whole after taking a more serious interest in understanding the rules ground up. I am only a weekend warrior so honestly I am failing to understand why there is not some kind of mandatory 'rules certification' requirement for a professional. This sort of adversarial stance between the highest level of professionals and the ruling body is a horrible look for the sport in general, but to me it is clear that the players have it wrong here. The general public will obviously listen to Rickie (the general 'Rickie') instead of educating themselves the correct way. It's just much too easy and it is unfortunate.
  48. To me, a pro not knowing the rules is like an accountant not learning about the new tax laws. When they don't understand the rules, they feel dumb and go on the attack, "rules are unfair", it's just ignorant.
  49. “That Rule is So Unfair!” A Rules Geek’s Generalized Guide to Hot Takes and Overreactions | Rules Geeks I apologize for the length of this post. If I had more time I’d have written a shorter one. – Erik J. Barzeski “That Haotong Li penalty was an outrage! He didn’t gain an adv… My reasons against a lot of the "hot takes" by fans over rules issues are: They Get The Rule Wrong They Don’t Appreciate that Rules Cover Many Situations They Don’t Understand the Reasoning Behind the Rules They Don’t Understand the Underlying Principles They Misuse the Word “Fair” They Assume Intent Matters They Think “The Spirit of the Rule” Matters They Side With the Players Take a few minutes to read it. I'd love to hear what y'all think (in the comments over there).
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