# pipergsm

Established Member

165

## Posts posted by pipergsm

1. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by saevel25

Answer me this, how far do you hit the ball past the hole if you miss the hole completely. Don't say you either make or lip out, not possible, i wont buy that, everyone misses the read or line. Be honest.

If the ball the ball travels more than 6" past the hole, your hitting it to hard. http://thesandtrap.com/t/46450/putting-capture-speed

Basically, due to physics, a ball traveling to fast doesn't have enough time to fall into the hole. Those putts that seem to hover over the whole and blow on past, that's why. That's why some putts look like they just fall in, while others bash the back of the hole with authority.

Since the cup is circular, and the ball is circular, this brings into the issue of lip outs.

Basically if you hit the ball that travels 6" past the hole, you have a small 10% reduction in circumference of the hole in which the ball can be captured. If you hit it 1 foot past, your looking at 39% reduction.

So you can see that a lot of speed is very detrimental to amount of error you get for making putts.

This is very useful and comprehensive  information, thank you!

Off course I miss the read sometimes, but rarely from within 4 feet.

Most of the time, when I miss a 3 or 4-footer, the ball will stop less than 1 foot past the hole (I use my own shoes for measuring, and they are just under 1 foot, very small, I know)

I'm not very good with inches and stuff, but I think 6 inch is 1/2 foot, right?

That is the approximate distance most of my balls will stop whenever I miss the hole from 3-6 feet.

Off course, the farther I shoot from, the bigger the chance that the ball passes the hole a little farther.

My 2 latest experiences were from 3 and 4 feet.

I know I mentioned before that I aimed for a max. pass of 2 feet, but in reality I'd say that 75% or more of my misses clearly stops within 1 foot, when I putt from within 6 feet.

More than 6 feet and that percentage will drop off course, but in order for my misses to stop outside 2 feet over 50%, I'd be putting from around 20 feet or more.

It also depends whether I have a bad day or not, I admit, but I'm talking about averages here.

2. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by Shorty

Look - - I am probably one of the ones who thinks you're doing OK for a beginner. I'd even say that it sounds like you're actually doing pretty well - and I love your enthusiasm. You're just overthinking certain aspects.

You could have a point there.

I do indeed have a tendency of over-thinking things.

However, I still believe I am not playing those bounce-outs too fast.

If you still think the same after watching the video, I'll believe you, but until that moment, excuse me for keeping on to my opinion!

3. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by iHack

And your playing partners who see your freakish putts and agree that they don't believe it, just say it to keep it moving. What other choice do they have, what are they going to disagree with you on every hole, every putt, every round.

Everyone has had those days where they "burn every edge".

It's like me saying when I watch the nba I see shots hit the rim and go in but when I shoot I hit the rim and it bounces out. Lol. You even compared your putts to the pro's putts on TV in one of your posts.

sorry to pile on and I'm sure your a nice intelligent person but your making yourself sound like a moron.

iHack, you misunderstood what I wrote.

I'm definitely not comparing my shots with the pros!

I just said that, When I watch other players, both in real life and on tv (PGA tournaments), putt the ball in the center of the hole (like I did, unless my sight is much worse than I think it is), at the same speed or even faster than I do, I don't see these balls bounce back out.

I also said, it doesn't happen at every hole, but at certain holes at my local course (numbers 5 and 6).

4. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by Shorty

My "personal experience and knowledge" lead me to maintain the position that I believe that you think that things actually happen don't.

Everyone else's putts fall.

Yours don't.

Trees stop you from making birdies.

You mishit half your shots on the course but raeely on the practice range.

You think you can coach people but have little knowledge of the game.

I think I'll maintain my position when it comes to you. I'm pretty comfortable with it, actually.

Thank you for your understanding Shorty. This is the kind of constructional reaction I expect from more experienced golfers.

1    everyone else's put doesn't hit the back of the cup, that's why they fall!  Please check out the video I'll soon post and let me know what you think after watching the images!

2    trees don't stop me from making birdies off course, but maybe you're right on this point. Maybe I think too much in the sense of : it should have, it could have,...

it's just that, after the first bounce, the ball was still going straight for the green entrance (and the pin), after the second (or third) bounce, it suddenly jumped to the left and hit the tree.

that's why I call it a bad bounce.

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't have enough course experience to compare,  but I think if the quality of the course had been better, this probably wouldn't have happened.

3    the mishitting of half my shots on the course is getting much better, since I started forcing myself to think about anything else but golf (music) during my shots, so it seems the problem was

purely stress-related

4   As I mentioned before, I stopped cheating about 2 weeks ago and the reason I cheated was to not be completely demoralized by my bad results and I considered

my cheated results not as a real result, but as a goal to aim for.

5   I do not think I can "coach" people, I'm sorry if I created that impression, I just expressed my opinion about something I believe to be an essential flaw in the way many recreational golfers

practice and try to improve. I'm not saying my vision is the best one, but I believe that if struggling golfers would use this vision as a guideline in their practice, their results would

probably be much better.

As for my own results, I'm still working on that, I'm not there yet (after only 150 hours of practice that would be ridiculous), but I truly believe I will soon be able

to play "my local course" in a single digit handicap.

That doesn't mean I will be a real 1-digit hcp off course, since my local course is too short for that (I wouldn't say too easy though), but I have to start somewhere, and once I have

established this goal, I'll move one to other, higher level courses to try and get the same results there.

So please, wait for the video I'll post and than comment on what you see.

I'll also post a video of my swing (irons) and will be happy to hear your comments on it, even if they're rather negative (though my pro says it's ok).

5. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by saevel25

have to agree, i have never had this issue on a golf course, ever. I was trying to understand what the starter of this thread was talking about with the cup. Never once have i heard about the actual plastic cup causing a problem. Even if the cup is 1" bellow the hole, it shouldn't be an issue, its either got to be a crazy coincidence that the ball is popping back out, or what's being seen isn't what is happening.

If you hit the ball hard enough, it will either, hit the back of the cup and bounce up and over, or up and in. Anything else, it goes down. I never seen a ball interact with the actual plastic cup. I think he's still hitting it way to hard, and catching the lip and its lipping out. That's the only thing that makes sense to me after reading all this stuff.

My suggestion, lay a club 6-12" behind the hole, hit putts so if you miss they barely tap the club or end up between the club and the hole.

I'm not sure what's actually happening, that's what I'm trying to find out.

All I know is that, at several occasions, the ball reached the hole in the center (or as good as) and bounced back out.

As mentioned before, I'll try to post a video of it soon, so you can see it for yourself.

After studying the video, maybe you guys will be able to tell me what's really happening here.

6. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

The facts and data show that you have a high handicap, seem to think you're better than you are, and refuse to take advice. Seems like you started this thread so people would say "Oh man, you just keep getting robbed...you'd be on the tour if your putts didn't magically lip out!"

Every time I've hit the center of the cup with a good speed, it's gone in the hole. Every time. Same with you. Stop blaming luck or physics for poor putts.

Sorry if that's harsh, but you're coming off as just plain ridiculous.

1   yes, I have a high handicap, I never said anything else.

2   "not agreeing with something" and "not taking advice" or 2 completely different things.

I've taken lots of advice from this site, but I don't always agree with what is said, and I believe to have that right!

3   no, I'm not getting robbed and don't think I could be on tour, just trying to find out why a perfectly straight putt bounces back out (not talking about lipping out here).

Soon I'll post a video so you can judge me by what you see, not by what you "think".

4   at certain holes (not all) at my local club (which is a low quality course), almost every straight putt that hits the back of the hole, bounces back out.

if it would bounce up and over (which has happened as well), it would be purely due too excessive speed (read Fourputt's post), but it's bouncing back, and that's not normal.

Some of you seem to think they've seen everything there is to see, and know everything there is to know.

Learn to accept this is not always the case, at least until you see proof of the contrary.

7. ### Lipping out Putts

"As for the original topic - do you seriously think that you are seeing the laws of gravity and physics don't apply to you?

It's just getting beyond absurd."

What happens happens, and I'm not delusional.

Even the people I play with and saw it happen don't understand it.

" As for the original topic - do you seriously think that you are seeing the laws of gravity and physics don't apply to you?

It's just getting beyond absurd."

Once can be stupid bad luck, but when it happens 4-5 times in a short period of times, something else is going on.

" I'll pretend to ignore the bit where you say modestly you "usually don't carry the ball 260 yards". "

For your information, I have carried the ball 260 yards and more at several occasions, but as I said, it's rare, so quit the sarcasm.

You've never seen me play, so you have nothing substantial to base it on, just your own "opinion on how my game probably looks".

Do you really think you're so fantastic you can know all that without ever having seen the person play or practice?

WOW, you must be a real guru!

IMO, any opinion about someones personality and/or abilities, based only on assumptions without having witnessed any supporting facts, should better be kept to yourself.
Failing to do so systematically, shows your believe in your personal supremacy over (the majority of) other people, which IMO is a very negative and dangerous characteristic.
Stick to the facts and data provided and don't make it personal.
If you think certain data is incomplete or incorrect, just say so, but don't start a personal attack (making sarcastic and insulting remarks is!) because the data doesn't correspond with your personal experience and knowledge.
8. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by Fourputt

No, if the ball hits the center of the hole and bounces out from hitting the top edge of the insert, then the insert has been set wrong.  I've hit that ledge many, many times, and never had the ball bounce back out.  If the ball is doing a loop around the hole and comes back out, that's not caused by the insert, it's caused by a combination of too much speed and not catching enough of the hole.

OK, I understand.

Since the ball is really bouncing out and does not loop around the hole to come out, it might be that the insert has not been set correctly (or that I really hit it too fast).

I will try to check it out and post a picture of the hole, maybe even a video of me playing the putt and the ball bouncing out (if it happens again off course).

I know it happened at holes number 5 and 6, so it shouldn't be too difficult to reproduce those putts.

9. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by saturday

I wanted to say this from the day this thread started. You lip out because you missed the hole. There's no better answer, Yeesh.

Got it, I missed the hole

10. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by MS256

No. I didn't miss that at all, which is why I mentioned that the plastic ring actually provides a buffer to the full width of the top of the cup, which without the ring is a much wider shelf for the ball to bounce off of.

If the cup is 1 1/2 inches below ground level the ball is going in the hole on a normal speed putt.

I set all of the pins where I work twice a week so I'm aware of what they look like.

OK, so what you're saying is that, if my ball bounces back out on that edge, it means I played the ball too fast, right?

I really want to believe that, it's just that I see many golfers putting those same kind of shots at the same speed or even faster than I do (real life and watching the PGA tournaments on tv), and those balls don't jump back out.

I'm talking about straight shots here, where the ball hits the hole in the center or as good as.

11. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by MS256

Since I have hit one putt where that happened out of no telling how many thousands, that I'm pretty sure would have gone in if not for the cup being too high, I can't see it happening 2 times in a day (or a year for that matter). Even the one I hit was going just a touch too fast or it would have gone in.

Another point: The plastic ring is less likely to bounce a ball out of the hole than the cup (because it's too thin to bounce the ball upward). Also with the ring it's not likely the actual cup is too high because there wouldn't be room for the ring, and the ring itself provides a buffer to the width of the actual cup catching enough of the ball to bounce it upward.

Bottom line is that any "slow" putt is going to go in even if the cup is too high. Slightly faster could catch the cup if it was high but would be less likely with a ring than without a ring.

I think you missed the place where I said that the diameter of the cup is a fraction smaller as the one of the plastic ring, making the edge of the cup stick out (inward the hole) from under the plastic ring, which has a depth of only 1.5 inch.

I believe it is this edge, not the ring, which make the ball bounce out.

It happened on 2 consecutive holes today, and in both holes I noticed the same phenomenon: the cup-edge sticking out from under the plastic ring.

It's only about 2 mm, but I think it's enough to cause the bouncing-out.

12. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by cipher

Take a photo and post it here of one of the cups and the depth maybe so everyone can see.

Good idea, I'll do that, but it might take a few days.

13. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I think I've seen in once or twice in my 40 years of playing (and never happened to me, only to someone I was playing with).  Most courses don't use that plastic ring and it still doesn't bounce the ball out of the hole unless you are horribly unlucky.

It happened to me twice today and 2 or 3 times before.

Both shots from 3-4 feet and normal (slow) ball speed.

I think it's not the plastic ring that bounces it back, but the edge of the cup under it, because it sticks out.

Imagine putting 2 rings on top of each-other, but the bottom ring is a little smaller than the one on top.

The only way to avoid a bounce-out is to play the ball so slow that it doesn't hit the back of the hole, but then you risk the ball stopping short or being pulled away by the break.

14. ### Lipping out Putts

Oh, by the way, I think I just discovered why my ball sometimes bounces back out of the hole.

Inside the hole, there is a cup and a plastic ring on top of the cup.

However, the diameter of the plastic ring is a fraction bigger than that of the cup, leaving a metal edge about 1.5 inch deep inside the hole.

I believe this metal edge will sometimes cause the ball to bounce out (not lip out!), when it hits the back of the hole, and thus the metal edge.

Has anyone else seen or experienced this before?

.

15. ### Lipping out Putts

Just played 9 holes again, finished in 47 (par 36), which is OK for me.

Today I forced myself not to think about the game, but about my favorite music, and it worked!

Much less stress, much less mishits. Only 3 or 4 real mishits over the 9 holes, including 1 drive.

Unfortunately, bad luck knocked on my door 3 times, making me need at least 5 strokes more than I should have.

Hole number 3, par 4, 350 yards, dogleg to the right:

with a water-stream crossing the entire FW 100 yards in front of the green, I limit my drive, since I usually can't carry it 260 yards, often resulting in the ball rolling into the water.

Ball stops just over 200 yards and I hit my 6-iron, but way to short, leaving me with a pitch from about 70 yards.

A bad bounce to the right and my ball ends up in the right side bunker.

Bunkers are my nightmare: either I follow through too strong and over-hit the green, or I don't follow through enough and the ball stays in the bunker!

Today, it was the first option, forcing me to pitch again to get the ball on the green, but about 18 feet from the hole.

2-putt, triple bogey.

Without that bad bounce, It would have been par or bogey.

Hole number 5, par 4, 298 yards:

the green has 2 entrances, 1 left and 1 right, separated by a bunker.

The right entrance however is also partially blocked by a tree.

My drive was a little too much to the right,so I had no choice but to go for the right entrance.

Used my 9-iron to pitch it from about 70 yards, but just in front of the entrance, the ball makes a bad bounce to the left and bounces back on the tree.

Pitch again from 15 yard and bring the ball at 3 feet from the hole, 1-putt, I save par but would probably have made birdie without that tree.

Hole number 8, par 4, 268 yards.

The green is protected by a water-stream, which usually swallows my ball when I drive it good (+240 yards), so I limit my drive again, ending up rater short, 70 yards in front of the water.

By that time, I start losing my music-focus, the stress sets in again and I top my 9-iron, ball goes into the water.

Chip over, but it's uphill across the water, and the ball bounces back to settle on the very edge of the water, leaving me with a very difficult pitch.

Afraid to under-hit it, I do the opposite (off course!), and the ball settles at the other edge of the green, about 60 feet from the hole.

Now it's a strong down-hill lie and hitting it a little too fast will send the ball into the water again, so I leave it way short, causing myself to 3-putt.

Overall, however, I can't complain too much.

The relaxation-trick seems to work, and pitching my irons instead of my Sw, like I did before, has proven to be much more consistent and easier.

16. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by D-Man

How are you practicing these shots?  Are you doing it off turf or off a mat?  Are you practicing these shots with the ball above and below your feet?

On the course we get a bunch of different lies.  This winter I played all winter on an indoor sim and felt like I got a bunch of good quality practice time.  I thought I was going to be a single digit HC finally!!!  I was so excited for it to warm up and go unleash my new skills on the course!  Only to realize hardly any of it translated to real golf.  I was hitting on a level mat that had different textures to simulate fairway, sand and rough.  But it was all flat and level and a perfect lie every time.  It took a big some time getting use to hitting off the turf with the ball above and below my feet again.

I see what you mean. I've been having the same problem with my irons for a very long time!

For my chipping, I don't do it on a mat but on some grass practice area, being very similar to the course.

However, just today I changed my strategy and started practicing pitching with my 9-iron (15, 20, 30 and 40 yards) instead of always using my Sw for the short approach.

I really had the feeling the 9-iron was much more consistent and easier to control than the Sw, so I'm gonna stop using the Sw for approach shots and only use it in the bunkers.

I think this will make a big difference and save me quite some strokes (and frustration).

17. ### At the range - can't see half my shots - is it worth practicing?

When I'm practicing my driver, and have a good shot ( carry = +200), I very often can not see the ball.

Sometimes, I see it take off but when I look up it has already become invisible to me, and sometimes I can see the first part of it's flight, but then it simply disappears.

When this happens a lot, is it caused by the contrast of the sky, or could it be an eye-problem?

I know my depth-sight isn't super and I'm a little short-sighted, but not very much.

Thanks for the information!

18. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by Shorty

Which translates as: "I mess these shots up at least half the time." Sorry.

Off course I do!

The question however: why does this only happen when I play the course and not during practice?

The answer imo: stress, too much expectations

Hi Jordy,

I'm a beginner and not a good golfer like you seem to be.

I don't know if your problems have been solved by now, however, I have experienced some of the problems you describe.

i.e.: not getting the ball in the air anymore (topping)

In my case, this was caused by the fact that I would stretch-out my knees (move the body upwards) during the back-swing.

the slice might be caused by hitting the ground with the toe of the club first, even if it's just a little bit and you don't even feel it, or  maybe you need to keep the toe of the club a little more upright.

I never had a real slice-problem with my irons, but sometimes my shot would go way right with a faint slice, and this was usually caused by putting the ball too much right in my stance and having the club-face a little too much open.

My back-swing is very steep (irons), but never causes me to slice, so I don't believe that's the problem.

Another possibility (happened to me too) is that during your down-swing, you focus too much on hitting the ball to the target, instead of simply completing the horizontal rotation of the upper body.

This could result in hitting the ball way too much in-to-out and causing a slice.

If you haven't solved your problem yet, I hope this helps you.

By the way, Where in Belgium are you from?

I'm from Laakdal, near Tessenderlo.

20. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by Shorty

This doesn't make sense. What do you mean that you "normally don't miss"? It is normal because you do it. We all do it.

You have to play with NO EXPECTATIONS. I guarantee that that is the best way to relax and score well. It's the only way to take pressure off yourself.

I mean that, when I practice my 20-yards chip-shots for example, only 1/20 will be a real mishit, so I can say I "normally" (usually) don't miss this shot.

When I want to use the same shot while playing on course, I'll mishit  50% or more.

The problem with me is that, when I go out to play after a decent or good warm-up, I'm basically telling myself:   Practice was good, so today I should be able to hit 90% of my shots right, and this should result in a score under 45 for 9-holes.

It's not that I'm constantly counting my strokes, but you get the idea, right?

So I start playing, and my drives are usually ok these days.

But then I start messing up completely with all my other shots.

My irons will constantly top the ball, resulting in 50 yards-shots where it should be +125 yards, or even worse, I start shanking my irons.

The simplest of chips (20-40 yards), I will suddenly leave way short (i.e.10 yards instead of 20 or 25), or overshoot the green (topping the ball), or end up in the bunker, being 10 yards right of the target line, where as during practice, this will rarely happen.

These kinds of mishits don't count for 10% of my shots (as I might expect), but rather 50% and more, when I go out and play!

I believe the high percentage of these mishits is caused by the stress I put upon myself by having too high expectations.

21. ### Hand Injury on the Course

In case anyone is still following this thread, I just visited the orthopedic surgeon today, and it appears my suspicion was wrong.

Somehow, when hitting into the mat at the range, I managed to cause a long but very fine fracture in the hand-bone leading to my pink.

Because the fracture is so fine and doesn't cross the entire bone, there was never any real swelling and the symptoms are very similar to what I described in my earlier post.

The contracting of my pink is probably caused by a cyst, of which I didn't even know I had it.

All I can do for now is taking anti-inflammatory medication and wait for it to heal properly, which could take 3 more months.

Luckily I don't have to stop playing golf, just be careful not to hit in the mat too often and put as little pressure on the left hand as possible!

Internet is a great tool, also for finding out what could be wrong with you medically.

But even when the described symptoms are an exact mach, it can still be something different, so go see a doctor when it seems serious!

22. ### Lipping out Putts

I got a lot of useful answers, thank you all!

Maybe one of the most interesting things is that I'd stop chipping from outside 20 yards with my Sw, and better start pitching with Pw or short irons.

It seems logical that this carries less risk of a mishit.

Intensifying my short game practice is off course a must as well, since at this moment, the least of stress seems to seriously interfere with my routine.

And last but not least, trying to find a way to lower my stress while playing.

Lowering my expectations seems a good and logical step.

I do indeed tend to put my expectations rather high, which I believe causes me to over-stress and miss many shots that I normally wouldn't miss.

23. ### Stress Management

I also have an anger problem on the course.

It usually doesn't appear at the first bad shot, but after a few.

In my case, I think it comes from the frustration of knowing that I normally (during practice) don't make such bad shots (talking about really big misses here, like shanking your 7-iron ob from the middle of the fairway!).

Combine that with personal expectations and goals that are being put too high, and you get uncontrollable anger after a few very bad shots.

The bad shots, in return, are often being caused by the stress, resulting from the high expectations and goals, thus you end up in a never-ending circle.

At least, this seems to be the case for me.

Lowering your goals and expectations should help a little.

i.e.: when you usually average 90/round, you could tell yourself: anything under 96 is ok!

Also, you can try lowering the stress during your swing/shot by thinking about your favorite music for example.

This should allow your unconscious swing-routine to take over (partially) from your conscious swing-routine, hopefully resulting in better shots, or at least making less bad shots.

I haven't tried it out yet, but surely will at my next round.

I'll let you know whether it helps!

24. ### Lipping out Putts

Just to give an idea about a typical hole for me, showing how my stress (probably) messes things up.

Playing a par 4, 350 yards.

I drive the ball 250 yards, leaving me with 100 yards to the green.

100 yards is a standard 9-iron shot for me, which I can execute with a 90% certainty at the range, so par is clearly within reach, maybe even birdie if I'm lucky.

I set-up, hit and top the ball, making it roll about 80 yards, 15 yards short of the green and about 25 yards to the pin.

I set-up to chip it with my Sw, thinking I still have a little chance for par.

This is a shot I should always get in the direction of the hole, and very often within 10 feet of it.

Mishit, the ball ends up in the side bunker!

Bunker shots are probably my weakest shots, so I'm happy to get it out in 1.

The bunkers on this course are of very low quality, often containing too little sand.

I get it out in 1, but hit it to strong, the ball ends up in the bunker at the other side!

I finally finish the hole in 7, triple bogey!

This scenario is rather the rule than the exception, and leads me to believe my stress is an important factor here.

If anyone has a good tip to get rid of that stress, I'm all ears!

25. ### Lipping out Putts

Originally Posted by TJBam

That is really good. If I overheard that at the range I'd be forced to measure out 40 yards for you and make a wager.

You're right, I correct: the closer to 40 yards, the more the % goes down off course!

70% is more for distances between 20 and 30 yards.

30 - 40 yards will more likely leave me with a 10 to 20 feet putt!

Again: that is during practice! Never on course.

×
×
• Create New...

## Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...