Nosevi

I frequently practice with a guy who played Europro the past year. I've seen him play with a caddie (he's one of the very few there with a full-time caddy) and without, seems to do fine either way. He's currently sitting 3rd place in one of the European Tour Q School stage 2 tournaments (of 3 stages) with a caddy but I've seen him go low without. He's fit enough that I don't think that side of it matters - when we play together we both carry and it's me breathing a bit walking up some of the steeper holes, not him

Respect to the truck driver ......... but personally I like the hedgehog - he's got style

Just to clarify, I wasn't stating what I think should happen, I was saying what the etiquette actually is. The etiquette of the game is laid down by the R&A for us and the USGA for guys over in the States and on this issue it apparently agrees. We can't all choose our own etiquette any more than we can choose our own rules. People can ignore it and decide not to let singles or faster groups through etc but when they do they are acting in a way which is contrary to the etiquette of the game. Just the way it is Edit: regarding sigle players this is how the R&A deal with it, would be surprised if the USGA differs but they might do: Priority on the course Unless otherwise determined by the Committee, priority on the course is determined by a group’s pace of play. Any group playing a whole round is entitled to pass a group playing a shorter round. The term “group” includes a single player.

One of the guys I often practice with is doing 'ok' at Stage 2 European Tour Q School, 3rd after round 1. Actually beat him last short game comp we had...... Guess that just goes to show the importance of having a great long game

Thanks Randy. I think course wise we're about at that point - the fairways are being left a bit longer now, the greens will be spiked shortly then we'll go onto winter greens (short mown patches of fairway near the greens). I think continuing to get out and about is important but the stats themselves will become pretty meaningless in terms of tracking performance. In terms of keeping moving forwards there's enough work I can do in the swing studio to fill up any spare hours when I'm not out getting cold and wet on the course and it's pretty easy to track performance there. It'll just be a case of bringing that to the course in the spring to see where we are then.

Pretty simple how it should work in the UK as the etiquette of golf is written down and published by the R&A. Singles have exactly the same priority on the course as groups, if you are holding up a group (or single) you are to wave them through and there is no requirement for a clear hole ahead. Only exception is in certain competitions and only if the competition committee has stipulated a change to the above for that competition only. People will try to 'legitimise' doing something else but the above is the etiquette of the game as it stands in the UK so they are wrong. That said, when I'm on my own and don't get waved through I don't lose any sleep over it. The group ahead is in the wrong but I just use it to practice playing at a much slower pace which is never a bad thing in preparation for competitions

Was asked about GameGolf and although I've generally just used it for my own stats gathering thought I may as well post a round or two up now and then. Was out yesterday, and it went 'ok' I guess. - http://gamegolf.com/round/657589 Course is obviously a CR of 73 off the back tees (which in theory you're only supposed to play from in competitions but I prefer to practice from and know the head pro doesn't mind me doing) but it's a bit of a slog right now due mainly to the way the course is kept during the winter. Greens are still ok (which begs the question - why can't I hole a ****** birdie putt to save my life?!?!?) but they grow the fairways up a bit at this time of year. A combo of colder temps and soft fairways with longish grass totally kills your distance and makes each shot in feel almost like you're playing from the semi. As an example if you look on the round you'll see I was in the middle of the fairway on 4. This was my 'lie' which is pretty standard for the 'fairway' at the moment. I guess they do it so the fairways are in good nick in the spring which they always are, in fact they're some of the best in my area, and maybe heavy frosts and tightly mown fairways don't mix. While it's still good to get out and about it does make the course play considerably longer, I'm maybe losing 30 yards a drive between colder temps and nigh on zero roll on landing. Options are to either stick with the back tees to make life more difficult over the winter and stretch myself a bit, expecting a jump forward in the spring. This is good to stretch myself but will kill my stats a bit both distance and scoring wise in the meantime. Or option 2 is to tee it forward to the normal men's tees over the winter so the course plays more similarly to how it will distance wise from the back tees in the spring. Many courses in the UK actually go to 'winter tees' at this time of year which are set forward of the standard men's tees for just this reason. Any thoughts? And that's any thoughts about using a tee further forward in the winter rather than about just learning to putt

Yes but dynamic loft not club loft, that's my point. You can have a given club loft but still present a different dynamic loft depending on your angle of attack, shaft flex, acceleration point in the swing, shaft kick point and a whole host of other things. Seriously, ignore the number on the bottom of the club, it's largely irrelevant as every swing is different. 100% agree. I use a driver set to 8 degree, get plenty of launch and not too bad a carry out of it even though I don't have mega high seing speed. Not sure why it would be 'wrong' if it goes quite a long way? I still say go get properly custom fit - it really does make a difference.

Also true but there again I don't see too many Tour Pros with 6 degree loft on their driver either My point is go get custom fit if you want to optimise your launch. It's all about the dynamic loft you personally present to the ball at impact not about the number written on the bottom and both your swing and the shaft flex (and kick point etc) will effect the dynamic loft. For some slower speeds the optimum club loft may well be 9 degrees while with some tour pros with a higher swing speed it may well be 10 degrees. You can't determine it simply by swing speed, there's other variables to take into consideration.

I think the point with all of this is that it's the dynamic loft - the loft the golfer presents to the ball at impact - that is important and not the number on the bottom of the club. While a given swing speed will have an optimum dynamic loft, it won't have an optimum club loft as we all swing the club slightly differently; two swings with the same swing speed will have different optimum club lofts simply because the golfers are presenting a different dynamic loft to the ball (or at least would if both were holding the same club. At the end of the day that's why a proper fitting is important to optimise launch - you can't just read it off a chart.

Yep, it was Randy who put it together :-)

Thanks, glad you appreciate them. Of course knowing exactly where I am, exactly where I need to get to and having a plan to get between the two by no means guarantees I won't fall well short but it stops it being inevitable purely through a lack of those things.

I'm going to love it come the snow and ice over the winter! Car will stay in her protective bubble for the winter now and I'll be working hard on my long game in particular. The Europro is played exclusively in the summer here other than the tour championship which is in Spain right now so while practising in 2 and 3 degrees C isn't a total waste, it doesn't really replicate what I'll be facing there. My parents actually live in southern Spain so depending on commitments here I might drop in mid winter for a few rounds and some short game practice, will just have to see how it goes. If I don't do that this winter it'll certainly be something I look to do in year 3, 4 and 5.

I know what a scrptical chap you can be @Shorty so just provided to show that my 'two mats anecdote isn't just a convenient story to tie in with Erik's post: The sofa in the swing studio sits on the first mat because it wasn't up to the job. I know you're massively sceptical of any 'plan' like this and I don't blame you - bloke who hasn't played throughout his youth thinks he can be a pro? Who's he trying to kid? But unlike say Dan for example I'm not going to stand here and say "No doubt about it, I WILL make it!" You know what? I probably won't. Secondly I'm aiming at the Europro, not the PGA Tour. Courses played are here in the UK and on average (last year) were 24 yards per hole shorter than on the PGA Tour (and only 9 yards per hole longer than my home track) which makes a pretty big difference over a round, a tournament or a season. I know the lengths of the courses used, the fairway widths, the average course ratings (just over 0.5 more than my home course) because I've bothered to find out. Making the cut last year basically meant shooting par golf each time out and by a coincidence doing this would also have meant I'd cover my costs almost to the pound for the season which for reasons I won't go into on an open forum is all I actually need to do - it's not about the money at this level and you're not going to get famous, it's purely as a fun challenge. I've said it before but it I'll reiterate it - I know precisely how guys at this level perform. With a few of them I've got their launch data for every club in the bag, I've practiced short game with them including competitions around the green (which I sometimes lose but not always anymore), I've got high speed video of their swings from every angle both in the swing studio and on the course, I've played practice rounds with them including matchplay comps, I've analysed their rounds using the spreadsheet posted above so I can see where I need to focus training, I've walked the fairways with them in tournaments on the Europro (no ropes in the Europro) to see how they break the course down in a tournament and exactly how they stack up with their peers....... You've said before about how good the guys are at pro level, trust me I know precisely how good they are at the level I'm aiming at. Lastly, and possibly most importantly, none of this was ever supposed to be open to the 'public' (for want of a better word). This was something I wanted to see if I could do. I didn't start this thread, it was started by a moderator moving a comment I made on the Dan Plan thread into it's own thread. People asked questions, I responded, it just sort of went on from there. I didn't actually want any attention and if it wouldn't hack people off I'd say something along thr lines of "So guys, that's the plan, will let you know if it works 4 years from now " But then that would seem disingenuous given people posting support. I guess what I'm saying is try to suspend at least a little scepticism until you prove me right. This isn't some haphazard, no idea plan shooting for something totally unobtainable. Yes, it's 'ambitious' and possibly beyond my ability to accomplish. We'll see

I said I would show what the gamegolf round (or rather 9 holes) looked like when plugged into Randy's Strokes gained (or lost in my case) spreadsheet looked like so here it is: What l this is telling me is that my driving was pretty good for those 9 holes, I advanced the ball well, but my approach play wasn't so great. I failed to get up and down a couple of times but this wasn't really the fault of my short game around the green, more a result in my approach play putting me in tough spots and my putting not being up to it. Now this is clearly only 9 holes but putting lacking is clearly starting to be a bit of a trend so it's something I really need to focus on. As well as this overview tab it also analyses driving, approach play, short game and putting in greater detail: All of this tells me pretty much everything I could possibly want to know about my performance for that 9 holes of golf but the bottom line is, today at least, driving was 'good enough' but not startling and none of the rest was. Long way to go to even sniff what I'd like to achieve. As an aside, I commented in Gamegolf that it was getting a bit dark towards the end. This was my view for my shot into 18:

I have to say that I'm on my second mat. I started with a standard mat but it quickly became obvious that it didn't stand up to testing - hit a ball fat and it made very little difference. I then got a top of the range mat from a company here in the UK called Huxley Golf who supply our national academy and the difference is huge. Hit a shot even slightly 'fat' and not only does it kill the distance but it totally kills the spin you get too. In fact I feel a fat shot on this mat almost more than I do on turf - on turf I sometimes get away with it, on this mat I never do. I take Shorty's point that you do need to get out and practice in the real world, but for working on technique and dialling in wedge distance I've found it works pretty well.

Happy for you to have this opinion but I think you're dead wrong I've had guys using the sim for exactly this, working on wedge yardages, who currently play on tour. Had one guy come over just prior to a tournament and work on wedge distance control and say afterwards that it made a big difference to his game during the tournament. Why? Because when you strike a wedge shot properly you hit ball then turf. By the time you hit either turf or mat the ball is already gone. So the question isn't whether the turf or mat makes a difference because if you strike the ball purely it doesn't, it's whether the kit is accurate enough to determine exactly where the ball will land. Butch Harmon says it is, if you disagree that's fine Regarding using the kit to judge whether a ball will skip forwards and stop or not, fair call - who knows in the real world. But it will tell you how much spin you're getting precisely and by knowing the decent angle it can make a stab at saying what would happen on a standard green on a standard day. After that you need to assess whether the green is softer than average, harder, uphill lie, downhill etc But then isn't that what you need to do any way? At the end of the day it's not a substitute for hitting off grass, it's something to be used in conjunction with hitting off grass in order to improve an area of your game. Edit: Kind of kicking the arse out of making the point but in which of these shots do you think the ball 'knows' if it's sitting on turf or a mat?

Personally I always carry. Don't really like using a trolley, carts are fun for a laugh but not for when you're supposedly engaged in a sport. I'm told by clever people at the academy that carrying your clubs vs using a cart or trolley will cost you about half a shot a round on average. Stats can prove anything though. Regarding Mark Crossfield he turned teaching pro off scratch. Maybe he got a little better or maybe a little worse but Gamegolf has him pinned at +0.5 right now. Random Mark Crossfield link.....

Wouldn't dream of it. The great thing about golf is that, no matter what your level, you can always compete against the course at your own level. Doesn't really matter if you're scratch, 18 handicapper, 28 handicapper, plus 4 - you can always try to improve your game.

We just all play off scratch ......... and I lose. But I don't lose quite as abysmally as I used to The point is Dan's trying to close the gap between himself and a pro down to zero. To do that he needs to know what he's aiming at. Maybe he is. I'm kind of giving him the benefit of the doubt. If he does know hoe far he needs to go in every area of the game in terms of performance on the course, strokes lost, ball striking ability etc there's nothing about it on his blog as far as I can tell.

No probs. Round posted here: http://www.gamegolf.com/player/Nosevi/round/650305 As the comment says, the pro was practising chipping on the first and stood aside to let me hit in - not the time to fat the ball into the rough short then fail to get up and down Got a little better later on though. Regarding distances, I hit further on the indoor launch monitor than on the course at this time of year. Cold temps and wet fairways covered in leaves are not conducive to driving the ball great distances. Drove the ball ok this afternoon though, just didn't have my A game with my irons handy....... and then didn't scramble as well as I might - never a good combination. Later on (or perhaps tomorrow) I'll fire that round into Randy's spreadsheet to show where it calculates I lost most shots. I've got a fair idea but it quantifies it which I like.

Simple answer is no, you have to do it manually. Gamegolf have released a new version called Gamegolf Live and one of the features is it gives you Strokes Gained but against a Scratch golfer, not a pro. I've just popped out and shot 9 holes for Senseicads so will upload that in a bit then show how it looks in Randy's Strokes Gained spreadsheet. It's got to be done manually though, Gamegolf just collects the gps position.

Regarding being 'chased out' I'd just like to pount out to any that read this thread but don't read that thread that it was in no way by me. Regarding the second part, totally agree. The guy I was playing with who plays off plus 4.6 and shot 10 under the course rating the day before is looking to make the STEP UP to the European Tour. I've also played with guys who have played on the European Tour. Until you actually go toe to toe, off the same tee on the same course, at the same time with guys like that you won't know just how good they are. That's not aimed at you Lihu it's aimed at what I see as a bit of a blind spot in the Dan Plan - knowing exactly what your target is in real, performance related terms.

Fourth tier sounds about right to me, Shorty which is why I think trying for the third tier down from the European Tour (ie Europro, Sunshine Tour, Alps Tour etc) is 'shooting for the stars'. I've seen how good guys who play at this level are, they often get there having been amateurs playing off about plus 4 or even plus 5. I played 9 holes of matchplay with a guy who plays off plus 4.6 two days ago and got well and truly thrashed as he shot 5 birdies in 9 holes from the 'tips' on a course with CR 73. I think tier 3 in Europe is an outside possibility for someone to achieve later in life but even that's a stretch.

Thanks Erik. So far I've only used it for 15 rounds and most were set to private when I shot them so you can only really see the stats that fall out of those rounds which is what I've posted above. I use it now to collect the data for the strokes gained spreadsheet so if people are interested I can set rounds to public in the future. I never use it for practice rounds as I often shoot multiple shots into a single green so guessing I only use it about once a week.