Jump to content


Established Member
  • Content Count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Community Reputation

10 Now on the Tee

About HonestyPolicy

  • Rank
    Established Member

Personal Information

  • Your Location

Your Golf Game

  • Handicap Index
  • Handedness

Recent Profile Visitors

The recent visitors block is disabled and is not being shown to other users.

  1. HonestyPolicy

    "Chapman" Competition Rules Question

    It is probably a good idea to mention that the "Chapman" format seems to have different versions if you search the internet. Sometimes called Chapman, and other times called Modified Chapman, Pinehurst, or Modified Pinehurst, it all really comes down to what is documented in the rules sheet prior to the tournament starting and how well a job the committee did in documenting it because it is not governed by the rules of golf. So is yours really Chapman? Who knows, but if your specific condition was not documented very specifically in the rules sheet prior to the tournament then it is up to the committee on how to rule. At our club we play this format a few times a year. Both players hit their drives, they switch to their partners ball to hit the second shot, and then they choose which ball to finish the hole with. The third shot is chosen "officially" when either the un-chosen ball is picked up, or the chosen ball is put into play by one of the team members. On our rules sheet it says that if a shot or stroke is lost or unplayable, and a drop is taken, the drop is not only counted as a stroke and recorded as part of the total strokes for the hole, but the drop is an act of putting the ball in play. Thus at our club, the choice is made if the ball is dropped and a team member is now hitting greater than 2. These types of formats, although a lot of fun, can get difficult when there is a rules issue. Unfortunately, it is the nature of the beast.
  2. HonestyPolicy

    Pulling short putts

    I was a teaching pro once upon a time for just a few years. Not enough money in it and I went out and found a 'real job' as they say. Of course many things can cause your putting problem, everything from set up to follow through. Everyone perceives things differently and understands things differently. Some are visual, some or auditory, others are......well suffice it to say everyone is different and what works for one does not for the other. Best advise I have is see an experienced teaching pro for the help you need. That all said..... I found many right-handers who miss left a lot have a problem with an over active left hand. Assuming you are right handed, try practice putting with just your right hand. Completely take your left hand off the club. Are you still missing left? If not then it could be an over active left hand. Many people have learned to correct their slice by getting their left hand more active in their full swing. I'm not saying this is the way to correct a slice, I'm just saying many people have self taught themselves to mediate their slice by flipping their left hand. Then when they go to putt their left hand wants to get involved too much. Assuming you are aimed properly, either your path is out-to-in pulling it slightly, or your cub face is closed at address or maybe a little of both. My advise above is just a guess for you based on my experience teaching putting for a few years. A club pro will properly diagnose the problem for you, for a price of course, and give you the drills necessary to remedy your problem. Good Luck!
  3. HonestyPolicy

    Lost Ball or in the Hazard???

    http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-26 As iacas says it is likely that it should have been played as a lost ball because, as you explain it, it does not seem to meet the definition of it being virtually certain to be in the lateral hazzard. One other suggestion is that when you are on the tee and you hit a tree near two hazzards and no one saw where it went, you should consider hitting a provisional ball from the tee to speed play. Your buddies might have agree to a drop from the lateral hazzard just to speed play. Above link is to rule 26 explaining the term "virtual certainty".
  4. HonestyPolicy

    "Rules" other players have told you

    I used to play with a guy who always wanted to play for money and would negotiate terms on the first tee as if it were a court case. He was the higher handicapper and all his negotiations were further in his favor; free breakfast ball off the first tee, roll 'em in the rough, 2 mulligans per side, re-negotiate strokes on the 10th tee box if more than 2 strokes behind, etc, etc. At first everyone else was complacent about it until after a while we found ourselves always paying in the end. No one wants to play with him anymore. Learn the rules and play by them. It is the only equitable way.
  5. HonestyPolicy

    Need Help Explaining - Different Tees

    So all of the suggestions we've tried in the past. The higher the rating the more difficulty, yes check. The ratings reflect a scratch golfers performance, yes check. The calculations, yes check. And all else of what was suggested here. Thanks for those suggestions but we've used them all. Of all the responses, Club Rat seems to get the issues best which center around aging memberships, reduced participation, and competition from different tees vs competition from the same tees. As some of our members get older and choose to move up to the forward tees, they don't understand (and maybe don't want to understand) how the handicap system and the rules of golf level the playing field no matter what tee you play from or what your age is. It seems that some believe because of their age that there should be some additional benefit (in the form of strokes) given to the older player and if they don't get it they won't play. I Would agree that generally ones age does affect his golfing ability, but one's ability is reflected in ones handicap, so age is reflected indirectly. In the end playing or not playing is certainly one's choice. Our approach next is going to be to keep competition between those who qualify for the forward tees and the other tees separated by division so those who qualify for the forward tees, can compete against others of the same age. We'll see if this will help to quiet the forward tee guys. Problem is we might end up with just a handful of participants in the further back tees, we'll see. The best response I've heard yet came from our State Golf Association president after he just explained the system to one of the forward tees players and the player wanted to debate him about it. He said to a player, "well I can explain it to you again, but I can't make you understand it". He is right. You can't make a person understand something he refuses to understand. Thanks much to everyone who participated in this. I appreciate your time.
  6. HonestyPolicy

    Cheating in Tournament

    This might have already been said. I wasn't going to read all 66 posts. In fact I'm sure it was. But I'll add my belief that as competitors it is our responsibility to protect the field. That means that if we see a rules infraction, we must call it on the other person if that person chooses not to call it on himself. This for many people is easier said than done because of no one is sure how the person being called will react. No one wants to have to "call" someone on a rule on hole #1 and then have to play 17 more holes with him, it's no fun. If the kid didn't know, which I doubt, then he should have gotten penalized and likely doesn't finish 2nd. He learns a tough lesson and the next tournament he is marking the ball correctly. If he doesn't get penalized, he doesn't learn anything and he eventually will get called on it in a following tournament. I mean come on, what is a 2 handicap even need to do with a few inches of cheating to increase the chances of making the putt. It's ridiculous. Also what is ridiculous is the tournament directors lack of guts. As a tournament director it is your responsibility to conduct a fair and accurate tournament. Refusing to even question the kid is not fulfilling your responsibilities. Sadly, this is not a unique situation, I've heard things like this many times. I'm very concerned for what has happened to our gentleman's game.
  7. HonestyPolicy

    Need Help Explaining - Different Tees

    Yes maybe I should have said this is with regard to "Net play" only. Yes our crowned Sr Club Champ is the gross. This is trying to explain to the guys who play the froward tees for net why a guy who moves up from the member tees handicap only changes by one stroke (in my OP example), not 3 or more as they have it in their minds it should because if a scratch player would be 3 strokes different, then they think a higher handicap should be more. I'm to the point where I'm thinking they really just want more advantage. I say to them, the USGA and rules of golf have been around for over 100 years with thousands of persons working it so you'd think if there was a problem they'd have found it years ago. No instead some group of guys at some podunk club in the middle of nowhere who don't even own computers or cell phones think they've found something screwed up with this damn ghin computer thing. Still I try to get them to understand. Maybe they just don't want to understand.
  8. HonestyPolicy

    Need Help Explaining - Different Tees

    So we have a very small club. Most are 65+, few are just a little younger. The 65+ guys have all moved to the forward tees mostly because the committee has made a rule that in competition 65+ can play from the forward tees, but those younger must play from the member tees. Because we are so small, we many times can not field different divisions by tee box so we must play against each other from different tee boxes. Our member tees are 68/120 rating/slope and the forward tees are 65/113. Other than the fact that the older guys from the forward tees don't like having to give up 3 strokes of their handicap when playing against the guys from the member tees (per section 3-5 of the USGA handicap manual), they have also come up with another complaint which I need your help in trying to explain to them why they are wrong. So, the problem started in our Sr Club Champ. Our Sr Club Champion has always been age 55 or older and has always been from the member tees in the past. Since many of the older guys didn't want to move back to the member tees, they just don't play, making participation low. This year our committee decided to move the Sr Club Champ to the forward tees, mainly to try to get the older guys to play but so as not to shut out the guys from the member tees, they made an exception to the 65+ rule and allowed anyone 55 or older to play from the forward tees for Sr Club Champ as well. Now, since the older guys from the forward tees have been giving up 3 strokes of their handicap (section 3-5) when they play against the guys from the member tees, they somehow expected that the guys from the member tees should give up 3 strokes of their handicap when they "move up" to the forward tees. Well in effect they do because section 3-5 is not necessary now since everyone is playing from the same tees, but they don't accept that as an explanation. They say "hey, soandso's handicap is 15 from the member tees, how can it only be 14 from the forward tees, it's a 3 stroke difference not 1 stroke? He should only get 12 strokes if he moves up! Something is wrong!" To top it all off, they asked the Pro to explain and he can't so instead he says "I don't know, something must be wrong with the system." (great response huh?) So other than telling our Pro to grow a pair and do his job, I'm looking for your help using a brief but accurate explanation. I can do the math, but I loose everyone quickly because (a) I am one of the younger guys, if you can call 63 young, so they think I'm lying to them to help myself, (b) they don't believe the math because the pro told them "somethings wrong with the system", and (c) their attention span is not beyond a few sentences. So I'm looking for a good brief explanation or a link that I can print out and hand to the Pro or hang up at the club bulletin board. You help is greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading this. Oh, and here's Soandso's handicap calculations: -Index is 14.1 - Member tees (68/120), calculation is 14.1/113*120=14.9 round to 15 - Forward tees (65/113) calculation is 14.1/113*113=14.1 round to 14 - Yet as you can see the rating is 3 strokes different. Thanks for your help.
  9. HonestyPolicy

    Section 3-5 of the USGA Handicap Manual

    Well I don't know about other systems or other countries and won't pretend to know. I am in the US and we are under the Ghin, USGA system as it stands today. Staying inside that box, there is no other way to read it. " a golf club may not ignore Section 3-5/9-3c when players are competing from a different USGA Course Rating as doing so would be waiving a Rule of Golf." So it is a rule here until as you say universal implementation happens and then we'll see. To me I asked for advise and I got it. Thanks to everyone who has discussed this. It has helped a great deal not only me but some others I believe. Peace. "
  10. HonestyPolicy

    Section 3-5 of the USGA Handicap Manual

    If by provision you mean playing against each other from different tees, then yes you are correct. The committee can have a condition of competition where there is say divisional play by tee box, or some other condition that does not allow competition against each other from different tees, and in so by doing they exclude Section 3-5 from being invoked. But if competition does exist from different tees, then the committee may not waive section 3-5. If basically have to have competition against each other from different tees at our club or we'd have 2-3 people in each division. I've been a member of about 7 clubs in my lifetime. The only one that has ever had to have competition from different tees is the one I am a member of now.
  11. HonestyPolicy

    Section 3-5 of the USGA Handicap Manual

    I see you pulled the definition of the word "Rule or Rules" from the Rules and Decisions Section of the USGA website. I'm not sure why it does not reference the Handicap Manual, maybe because the definition there is within the context of that section only. I found in the Q&A section where it does reference Section 3-5 of the USGA Handicap Manual as a "Rule of Golf" that can not be waived. See the link below and the quote I grabbed from it. https://www.usga.org/HandicapFAQ/handicap_answer.asp?FAQidx=6 Quote: "Please note that a golf club may not ignore Section 3-5/9-3c when players are competing from a different USGA Course Rating as doing so would be waiving a Rule of Golf. The Committee in charge of a competition does not have the authority to waive a Rule of Golf (see Decision 3-5/2)."
  12. HonestyPolicy

    'virtually certain' that it's your ball

    I agree that placing a mark on your ball is the preferred method, but see below from the USGA Decisions; LIFTING BALL FOR IDENTIFICATION 12-2/1 Identifying Ball by Brand, Model and Number Only Q.In the area in which his ball presumably came to rest, a player finds a ball of the same brand, model and identification number as the ball he is playing. The player assumes it is his ball, even though it does not carry an identification mark as suggested in Rule 12-2, and plays it. Should the player be considered to have played a wrong ball? A.No, unless (1) there is clear evidence that, because of the ball's condition, it is not the player's ball or (2) subsequently it is established that another ball of the same brand, model and identification number was lying in the area at the time the player played and either ball, from a condition standpoint, could be the player's ball. Not sure I like it, but there it is..........
  13. HonestyPolicy

    Section 3-5 of the USGA Handicap Manual

    Yes the creation of a handicap index involves the use of an average (of the lowest ten differentials x .96 and then assessed for tournament performance). But we all know that anything based on an average means that half the data is above the average and half is below. Said another way, rarely do independent performances match the average. And then as you say some data around and average is tight while other data is wide and wouldn't it be great to see variance somehow added to the creation of a handicap, but then again there is always the argument that the more you try to fine tune something the more complicated you make it for very little accomplished actually. There is no doubt that some perform better at some aspects of the game while others perform better at other aspects and when they move around from tee to tee it doesn't necessarily match the difference in rating between those tees. In fact some have actually figured this out and play the tees they perform poorly at during casual rounds creating higher differentials, and then sign up for the forward tees which they know perform way better at during tournaments. But in the end the rules are the rules and we can not cherry pick the ones we want to follow and the ones we want ignored. Section 3-5 is a rule of golf and must be included when playing in a net competition from different tees. It can easily be avoided by having divisional play by tee box, but for small clubs like mine, it is hard to have divisional play by tee box. Rules/Laws exist to administer fairness as best it can be done for the vast majority. Lately it has become popular to attack the persons involved in enforcement but without enforcement we have chaos. The committee exists at least in part to enforce the rules but it's a tough job. Section 3-5 is not perfect, I grant that. It is not enough to cover the rating difference for some while it is way more than enough for others, but it's the best we have to work with. Where I have landed, like many here, is we will do divisional play where we can and avoid having to include section 3-5 as best we can, but when we can't due to a lack of participation and we must have competition from different tees, we will follow the rules. If that means these guys decide not to play, then so be it. Their choice.
  14. HonestyPolicy

    'virtually certain' that it's your ball

    Very interesting. I can not find anywhere in rule 12 the use of the words "virtually certain" so as you say you either must identify it or consider it a lost ball. I think that either a or b would suffice for it's identification and I'm not sure about your other options c and d because I can't find anything about them. Option a would be OK if you read decisions 12-2/1 where it says it's ok to identify a ball by model and number as long as 1- the condition of the ball makes it obvious it's not yours, or 2- that another ball with only model and number on it in the same condition was not found in the same area. I'll be interested to see what others think about your options c and d. And, in this instance, and in an official game as you say, I believe it would be especially in your best interest to identify it because if it is your ball, it is 1- "on the course" and 2- "in a cast or runway caused by a burrowing animal" meeting the definition of an abnormal ground condition and allowing you relief under rule 25-1. I'm not sure that a free drop within one club length no closer to the hole would have gotten you out of trouble, but just in case it's a good side note.
  15. HonestyPolicy

    “Legitimate” mulligan via stroke and distance?

    OK all, forgive me for missing that one can declare an unplayable when ever they want. In many instances it doesn't make sense but yes there are rare instances where it might. For instance... At a course called "Jay Peak" in Vermont, on a par 4 hole, #10 for those of you that have played there, it has an almost UN-walkable uphill fairway from the 100 yard marker to the green. As I recall the green is a large 3 tier green and sloped back to front and the front of the green is a false front with the approach to the green shaved so it is almost as fast as the green. In other words don't land it short or it'll come right back to you all the way to the 100 yard stick. Seen it happen. Anyway that day the greens were lightning and I was at the 100 yard stick taking my second shot. I'd played there before so I took enough club to carry it to the middle tier. When I arrived at the green my mark was on the middle tier but the ball had released all the way to the back of the top tier and the pin was in the front. It had 3 putt written all over it but I was playing well and wanted very badly to 2 putt this one and further separate myself from the group. I just touched it, but unfortunately it was too much and as it picked up speed going down the tiers, it not only rolled off the green but back down the hill and all the way to the 100 yard stick. I guess I could have declared an unplayable there (something I wasn't aware of) and go back and putt again for a one stroke penalty hoping that a successfully attempted second 2 putt would have gotten me a double. As it was my fourth shot from 100 yards landed a little more left and checked this time on the middle tier and I dropped a lucky putt I had no business making for a bogey. I'm not sure even if I knew I could have declared it unplayable, that I would have. That was a dangerous putt from way back there and luckily my choice worked out, but I get it and I've learned something. Thanks for the education, it's why I'm out here.

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...