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Jack Watson

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Jack Watson last won the day on April 2

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About Jack Watson

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  1. I guess the bottom line for me on this topic is that I am not saying Jones idea is the answer or secret or magic or that it's all one needs. Iacas is right it is really only ONE basic idea. Modern science has proved that both internal and external focus are advantageous to learning depending on the situation. Probably the ultimate form of instruction is a synthesis as Iacas alluded to several times in the thread. Imo from looking around online and reading what golf literature I have read the industry as a whole seems to be heavily slanted towards internal focus. Just read Five Lessons or Leadbetter or just notice when you look around. I wouldn't include 5sk in the junk that I see readily available promising quick results with magic tricks. You can't really argue against 5sk. One description I read from Leadbetter on hip motion in one of his books was truly ridiculous. I would tell him to his face that what he wrote is one of the worst things I have ever seen. I think Jones's writings are a good contrast to getting caught up in overthinking things. I read some advice Iacas wrote to a very good player and it was almost verbatim to what Jones said in one case about making small good swings and building back up from there if things get way off track. I am only one golfer, and it's like anything, what I have seen work is ultimately irrelevant to what will work for someone or even a majority of golfers. I have no shame in admitting that. One idea can only be repeated or explained so many times. So I am not going to continue unless addressed directly as it seems my ability to try to explain what I have seen success with has run its course. It's only one aspect. I will say Jones one idea can't harm a golfer. His writings are timeless and if you find yourself getting caught up in overthinking as many of us do (we are golfers after all) his words are refreshingly simple and positive.
  2. I have to admit, imo me trying to use Nicklaus as someone who utilized Jones method in his prime was a mistake. Grout taught him. With Nicklaus it's very odd. If you look at what he's written long after his career, many things he writes are very Jonesian. I found multiple times where he said things like I never thought turn I swung the club and it's momentum turned me or the other quote above or talking hands focus. The thing is if you look at his writings from say about 77 or so he did not talk about the swing this way. No idea why that is. I notice though that some of what he wrote after his career was over was often in conjunction with Flick. Malaskas account of what Jack said came from retired Jack not world beating Jack. So to be fair, I think it's worth noting this. My apologies for posting Jacks views from an era long removed from his tournament play. I do think it is worth noting that Jack did look up to Bobby Jones as the man to beat in terms of records. Bobby endorsed Ernest Jones's teachings back in the day. Anyways, my kid is not the most athletic type. Not much interest in golf. I have gotten her to come out with me a few times though. Now, I told her very little the first two times on the driving range. I got her into a decent address position and asked her if she could imagine a playground swing and to do that. I told her to swing the club back and through and the club would take care of the ball. TBH she did ok I guess but it was clear watching her that she wasn't quite grasping the golf thing. She'd catch one or two pretty good and then she'd start lunging on the forward move trying to make power and swing across the ball. I tried to show her by example what swinging across the ball was and it sort of seemed to help. Basically I watched her and complimented decent motions and said little else. I never told her turn this or hands that or what have you. She had a tendency to stand at address knees locked straight I did tell her to feel a slight springiness with the legs at address but that was the extent of my attempts to help. She wasn't really getting into it the first time or two out. So the next time I coaxed her to go out with me it was only because other family was going also and they also had never golfed. I was thinking what will I say to them? My main goal was do no harm. I studied Five Lessons quite a bit years back and I was quite sure I was not going to bog them down with grip stance hips lead swingplane-that wouldn't work. So I went Ernest Jones. I had never tried it before on anyone. So I get my reluctant daughter into the backyard and showed her the club and how the weight is in the head of the club. I showed her an image of the swing. I told her focus your mind on the weight and swing it like the picture with your hands back and forth without stopping. I did tell her this idea was not mine it came from a good source just like I told the others. (In case of epic failure ha ha) After a few seconds she goes wow that seems so much easier Dad! Her swing looked functional. So I did the same to the others and went to the range. I set my daughter up first with a low tee and said just remember what I said. I just told the others do the same thing you did on the lawn. Obviously a lot of mishits ensued. But the cool thing was ever few shots they'd catch one or two half decent and the reactions were priceless! Holy crap did you see that?! Lol. I was focusing mostly on the two grown ups but I noticed out of the corner of my eye that my daughter was doing pretty decent! Now, what happened as time went on a bit is both grown ups started a contest to see who could hit farther. I kinda lost control of the process lol. But they were obviously having fun. I kept telling them to watch my daughter because she was getting successful hits the majority of the time but really they kinda stopped listening and were having fun trying to swing as fast as possible and mishitting the majority of shots. I watched the mechanics and all but didn't mention it. The odd thing to me was really they were all looking decent before the two went in long drive mode. Not one of them was not finishing with the weight on the left. Long story short everybody had some success and had fun. My brother in law hit one hybrid flushed high and straight to the 200 marker. This was before going into long drive mode haha. The reaction that these two had was interesting. Successful hits seemed to breed a desire for more and more power. I let them be but it was clear that for a total beginner they need constant supervision. Afterwards, they told me they wanted to go again because it was fun. I only remember being admonished when I started out as a young kid. All I remember my grandfather telling me was no no! That's a baseball swing! And keep your head down! And no no hit DOWN on the ball to make it go up! No wonder golf seemed so difficult for me.
  3. I haven't researched modern takes on Jones idea. I don't tend to like secondhand accounts of stuff very much. I like to try if possible to go on the source. Jones heavily emphasized the feel through the hands of the pull of the clubhead while swinging. This came to mind when thinking of the idea of swinging a weight on a string in a circle. Obviously different but there's some similarities to golf. Jones wrote that this pull of the clubhead is both speed and control. It's easy to imagine a flip, that's the antithesis of this concept. I can't see how the sensation Jones wanted in the hands is possible without engaging the body.
  4. Jack said: In other words, you swing the club, and your body reacts to how you swing it. Doing this forces you to use your lower body to initiate the downswing. Theres more than one way to interpret that imo. Intentionally? Maybe. I didn't read it that way at first glance. I can't find anywhere that Jones wrote that the club will swing itself. He did specifically mention though at one point that he had to respond to folks mischaracterizing his idea in that way. Jones wrote that the whole body contributes to the speed of the clubhead. Theres a video available that I won't put up but it's Malaska and the BBG you tube guy I dislike talking Nicklaus. BBG guy mentioned the leg drive Nicklaus was famous for and Malaska said same as Jones. He said that aspect is not a conscious thing for Jack because Jack told him so. I'd link it but I don't want to give exposure to BBG. EDIT 1977 gd article Nicklaus said his hands are subservient to his legs FACT He was more like Knudson wrote in his book natural golf swing. Knudsons book did absolute nothing for me personally. I know, a shocker.
  5. The club on its own standing still does nothing to the golfer. However when swung at speed it's a different story. I just figured Flicks point written there was irrelevant/uninteresting.
  6. The scratch paper drawing makes no sense whatsoever to me. It looks to me like stand flat footed, ball way back in stance, wack ball with a right hand cast. That said your impact sounded good. I definitely don't see this living up to some claim of most repeatable move in golf however. It's hard to tell but it looks to me like you are using leverage as your means of force.
  7. I found this from Nicklaus. I don't pay Flicks comments much attention, but read what Nicklaus said. http://www.golfdigest.com/story/flick-nicklaus-transition "You swing the club and the body reacts to how you swing it. "
  8. It's obvious what happens in a good swing. Not up for debate.
  9. I was just thinking about how if one is more open at impact it would have to have the path/face effect you alluded to. That quality rotation of the torso seems to be very very common in great strikers. Nick Price maybe not as much or Knudson, but the vast majority do indeed have tremendous rotation like DJ or Rickie or Rory etc etc etc.
  10. Ah, I forgot to mention Jones did emphasize something about the body! I just ran across it; at one point in the beginning chapters he mentioned the posture and he emphasized that if the address posture is lost during the motion the swinging action has been "destroyed." Cant believe I missed that point the first time or two through. The way he wrote it was almost as if this was so obvious to him to almost be a foregone conclusion.
  11. I was researching a bit on Calvin Peete and he noted that many times for the tournament he was never out of the fairway off the tee.
  12. Interestingly Jones, that I saw, never wrote once about 'release' He wrote a lot about feeling the 'pull' of the clubhead during the proper action. He never wrote that one releases the pull and allows the clubhead to fly out tangent to the arc. So maybe this relates to the above somehow. Again in swinging a weight on a string in a circle if you release there's no more circle. Regardless of technology looking at images is visual. Jones said to succeed one had to learn to know the motion not visually but by feeling it. He says that no one can do that for a person. Jones is very adamant that the attention/intention on the hands and clubhead and I am quite sure he would agree if alive that "you're not moving your hands in a golf swing without moving your body" He's very clear on this. Jones wrote over and over not to copy others. IMO just because a body part does something in a good player in the swing at some point that does not necessarily mean they produced that motion by conscious effort on that part of the body. Just my take Jones never said that. It seems Jones idea of what need to be felt did not extend to 'more arms or more turn' His whole concept was focusing on the implement not the body less hands of course. For an example let's say you and I had enjoyed 18 holes and arrived after at a party. We go to the back of the car to get a container of beverages. We both stand near the trunk of the car as it opens. I reach in and grab the container and you say hand it to me I will carry that since you are a nice guy, the question is did I have to think ok turn the shoulders and hips when I handed it to you? Or, did I simply grab it with my hands and hand it to you and everything with the body was subconscious? Then how was he so effective at teaching others? Certainly, imo, he knew what he was doing. One, Jones never said it that way in writing. Two, I have personal experience telling a person who has never swung a golf club before to swing it with their hands and their body moved. Multiple times. Imo most over the top crap slicing golfers who don't know how to swing move their body violently leading the downswing. That's their whole problem. Their body motion is totally out of sequence with the club motion. Jones wrote adamantly the body must be responsive to the hands and what they are doing to the clubhead. It's one of his most important fundamental ideas.
  13. Jones wrote of the power in a true swing radiating from the center. He mentioned the legs being important power sources. He never said you have to do xyz with the legs to make power.