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Everything posted by 2turnswish

  1. Look Iacas why don't you stop with the ****'s sake and my head in the sand. In fact why don't you stay off my comments. You haven't proven a thing to my satisfaction. Your "reality" diagram shows the ball going intially right with the face pointed dead down the target line! What made the ball go right? Huh? Now if you cannot reply civilly or need the use of more labels or profanity then ****you! Jacobs may have got it wrong, but he corrected a hell of a lot more golfers than you ever will. And he was a hell of alot more humble and gentlemanly than your arrogant a**.
  2. Show me how you hit a ball that starts left of the target line and then curves to the right of target line. Or conversely a ball to the right of line then back to the left. On the L to R I'll bet you swing to the left and to the right on the second one. You cannot do otherwise. And lay off the rude descriptions of my head being anywhere, you're supposed to be a moderator.
  3. Hitting a ball slowly with a flat face club is a bit different from swinging much harder with a lofted club, so your experiment is flawed. And as for Jacobs and his ability to teach, diagnose, and correct, IT WORKED! What else needs to be said. Good luck to the modern teachers. I'll take Jacobs, Armour, Jones, Nelson, and good luck to all.
  4. So have I and confident in my position and JJ's years of instruction. Merry X-mas.
  5. Not a fan of Haney either, believe he strayed from JJ's fundamentals, which isn't unusual for students. I placed my swing right on JJ and now shoot par golf for my appropriate yardage. Age 66 and only started serious golf 4 years ago, had huge faults, JJ's swing thoughts and principles corrected everyone. I also liked Byron Nelson's book and Tommy Armour's. My best to you.
  6. No not talking about the stance, but the actual path of the club. I like your experiment, but lets substitute a 4 iron and take many swings starting with along the ground and slowly adding a steeper angle of attack from outside to in and clubface open. Then we'll add speed, putting speed to full out 4 iron swing and then well record ball flight. Let me know how it goes. An Iron Byron would be perfect. All the factors are working dynamically, clubface, swing path, swing speed, angle of attack, and loft. They do not work independently. The final judge, for an instructor, is do suggested swing mechanics work, and I'll see bet my first born that JJ's worked, will work, and always will work. He's not been upsurped nor discredited. Contemporary instructors can only stand beside, not push him over. And it's not so bad beside JJ. My best.
  7. Lol. Back to square one. Well let me know when your 50 years into your golf teaching profession how many books you've sold, pros you've taught, students you've helped, and if you're in the Hall of Fame. I'll just let the many stars comment on JJ's knowledge of ball flight and controlling it. It's been interesting.
  8. Look, I'm sure all those golfer, numbering in the thousands, that JJ and his students taught and helped will attest to him and them getting it right. Now as to your example, 10* path right of target and 5* closed face in relation to target, which would be 15* closed to path, bet that would be a smothered ground burner to the left. Surely you meant 5* closed to path which would be a huge draw or hook. The dynamic relationship between swing path, face angle, clubhead speed, angle of attack, type of club, loft and lie is just that dynamic. And John Jacobs understood all these perfectly and taught the fundamentals perfectly and how to fix faults perfectly. His principles have and will stand the test of time, no matter how many monitors record ball flight. His nine possible ball flights, pull, pull draw-hook, pull-fade-slice, straight, straight-fade, straight-draw, push, push-fade-slice, push-draw are and always will help any golfer correct any fundamental that caused that particular ball flight. End of story.
  9. Exactly as JJ taught and illustrated. So nothing has changed. All the face is doing is modifying the path if it is not squared to the path. The draw starts to the right of the target because that's where you're swinging, path, and if the face is closed to that path then the ball will pick up side spin counterclockwise and turn back to the left, all that final performance of the ball is face angle relative to the path. Same for fade or straight. The nine actions of the ball, as described by JJ, are still as true today, as there were in his time, and always will be. Two forces working in dynamic harmony. And the important thing is how to control them and correct them. For that I refer you to the master, JJ. It's been fun.
  10. You are so right, "...at some point wrong is wrong...". And anyone believing that the clubface determines the initial ball flight is wrong. Look golf is a target game, A to B. So you want to hit a draw from A to B. And the clubface determines the initial direction and the swing path the curvature. So you swing to the left with an open face, right? I mean that's YOUR definition of ball flight laws. Club face open sends ball right and by swinging left the ball then curves back to the left and there's your draw? No, there's your classic fade or slice. To hit the draw, you swing to the RIGHT with the face closed to the swing path and there goes the ball out to the right, path, and the closed face imparts counterclockwise spin and the ball curves back to the left, a draw. JJ and others never were, nor never will be wrong. You're confusing target line with swing path to define your laws. But again if swing path defined the terminal curvature, which in the case of a draw is to the left, why then are you swinging to the right? By your laws, the ball should go to the right at the end! That's the path. It doesn't, it goes right initially then curves left. Path combined with face, not face combined with path.
  11. Dudie, JJ said the ball's initial path was relative to the swing path and he WAS EXACTLY RIGHT! And all your monitors will not be able to disprove that correct observation. And all you've done here was prove him right and confuse yourself. That's the facts. You hit a ball out to the right 5*, the clubface is 2* closed, the ball is going right 3* and then will turn left somewhere along the way, depending on other factors. Just as JJ described for many, many, years. And you can test this with any golfer. What you're missing or misdescribing is the influence of the 2* of the closed face. You're confusing yourself, but keep thinking, you'll get it. Maybe. Either way, if you're a good instructor you'll correct a slice or hook the same as JJ taught. Good luck.
  12. I'm sorry, but in mind and others you have not disproved JJ and others concept of "ball flight laws", rather you have proved them. You're just confusing yourself. But it doesn't matter as the corrections will still be the same as taught by JJ. Good luck.
  13. Look I appreciate your dedication. But your theory is flawed, as is your determination as to what JJ would recommend. Unfortunately he's passed. But having read all his books he'd not recommend further right to correct a hook, and make you a Bobby Locke, he'd set you straight by correcting the fundamentals and ball position. And yes I still solidily stand behind initial is path, terminal is face "relative to path". You are saying the same, but just cannot see it.
  14. No he'd have you square your stance for path, make sure where you were aiming the clubface, square, and maybe ease your grip. Look if you aim 10* right, but have clubface 5* left, I guarantee the ball will go right before it goes left. Guaranteed. Now you have the monitors, go test it. The only way that ball is going right is if path is right.
  15. Look is the ball on a line from it to the target? Yes. So you aim right and swing right, any degree you want. Now close the clubface. Now swing. Did the ball start intially right of the line from ball to target? Yes it did. Why? Because that's the direction you swung. THE INITIAL DIRECTION WAS RIGHT OF THE TARGET LINE DETERMINED BY CLUB PATH. Now the clubface orientation determines how terminal path. Sorry your mixing up your reference points in defining "initial" and building a faulty foundation to your "new laws". I'm exhausted for new arguments. I'll leave it to you. But if your correcting a slice you'd better aim left. It's always worked. Sorry, aim right, hell you got me confused!
  16. Read John Jacobs again and see if he was wrong. Now using your own words here I'll uphold JJ. Swing 5* right, clubface at target, which "Initial" direction did the the ball go? Right of target, not left of target line and the closed clubface, relative to the swing path made it go way left. JJ's assessment exactly. You're all trying to redefine "initial". Your senario had the ball going right, then left relative to the TARGET not trackman or any other monitoring device, THE TARGET. Okay?
  17. Go to the Golftech chart and look at it. Compare it to what JJ's diagrams showed, there the same. Only now they say the club face is responsible for the initial ball path. Really? Then just what put the spin on the ball? The club path or the face of the club? The club pathway sends the ball left, right, or straight, the metal spins the ball. Pick a target line right of the pin. Now align yourself along that target line. Now close your club face and swing inside to out. Where does the ball go intially before turning left? Either along your target line or a bit further right and then it turns left. So what caused it to go straight or a bit out to the right? Clubface or path? (Moderator: This topic was split off from another topic which can be found here.)
  18. Went and researched new technical data on ball flight, Golftech, and after reading the words and looking at the diagrams of their version of "ball flight" rules, it as exactly as JJ said it was! It's not the opposite at all. Not sure why they drew such a conclusion? Their diagrams prove JJ and others right. We're always trying to reinvent the wheel.
  19. No not overselling at all. JJ is genius enough to know fundamentals are the building blocks of a reliable swing. So no matter where you might be starting, beginner or many years into the game with many swing faults, uncompensated, going back to square will set you right. Grip, the one that works for you, alignment, stance, posture, and finding the low point. These are tried and true and will be forever. From this base changes in ball flight can be made. He teaches different lies and adjustments, short game, and putting. A complete knowledge is there for any student. Again if a person cannot visualize the written or drawn text, then a competent instructor will help. Keep it simple, the best way. And tempo, tempo, tempo.
  20. Actually JJ gives a golfer everything they need, to give themselves the tools to improve their ball flight, you don't need an instructor. And when you're done digging it out of the dirt, you own your swing and can make in round corrections. Not to say going the personal instructor is wrong, just not necessary, if a person wishes to go it alone. JJ has several books out and they give a complete knowledge on striking and controling the ball, all based on ball flight. Plus course management and mental aspects.
  21. We're in agreement. My conviction will always be with John Jacobs and his way to practical golf, using ball flight to diagnose your swing and make corrections if needed.
  22. Lihu, so true, so true. We have a guy here, he's 78 and he's the best golfer of all. Of course he plays the Reds. He shoots under par almost everytime. His swing looks feeble. Never more than 1o'clock on backswing and almost slow on downswing. 210-230 drive, on the green with next, one or two putt. Bingo. When he misses, up and down in two. Calm, reticent, cool. Can't beat him. He's one reason I quit trying to muscle the ball. I keep my left arm very straight, concentrate on width without swaying in the backswing, keeping on plane, 3/4, and a smooth acceleration down to swishing thru the ball. My errors will be flipping instead of swishing. So I visualize the right hand, arm, and knee extending out through the ball and that gets me to a full finish and weight over to the left side.
  23. I play on an old Mom and Pop course in West Texas and it's not the best or the best maintained, but we love it. It's hard for the owner to make much money. Not enough young people coming into the sport. So he hasn't got the cash to infuse into the course. Our biggest gripe here is so many do not repair ball marks on the greens. So the ones who are consciousness fix all they can. Hard to understand such disrespect.
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