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Puttin4Dough

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9 Plays Winter Rules in the Summer

About Puttin4Dough

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    Established Member

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    Los Angeles, CA

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  • Handicap Index
    3.8
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    Righty

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  1. Are you noticing that when you think outside of the box on this website that the entire forum tries to jump down your throat?  I completely understand everything that you are saying in the playing golf without a though thread and it is amazing to me how no one can even make sense of what you are saying.  I am literally blown away by reading the responses.  Best of luck with your golf journey but realize that you are examining golf at a much deeper level than most can comprehend.  Take care R to L

    1. iacas

      iacas

      Thanks for the chuckle.

      Here's what's actually happening. While each of you probably see what you're saying as "the truth," and you see everyone else just being "sheep" (you've used the word "flock"), and you see yourself on some noble quest to share enlightened information (really, "you are examining golf at a much deeper level than most can comprehend"? Uh, no.)… what's actually happening is that both of you have unfounded opinions which not only defy common sense but defy actual practical application, what we see day to day in the real world.

      @Righty to Lefty: Ballstriking is historically defined as including the ball's distance and direction. If you want to discard those, that's fine, but almost everyone's going to disagree. They'll also point out that your facts are wrong when you say that ballstriking doesn't matter much in determining a golfer's score, and they'll also say bad things about your opinion that a golfer is not really playing golf and shouldn't be concerned with distance or direction so long as they aren't positive that every shot will be solidly hit.

      @Puttin4Dough: You're arguing against having any sort of swing thoughts, and say that it's a "negative" thing that causes "tension" and that nobody will reach a high level if they are thinking over the ball. You trot out really bad "stair" analogies… that don't even hold up to people running up the stairs, and have yet to demonstrate that you even know what a swing thought IS because it's certainly NOT "thinking about what muscles you need to move to lift up your left leg and put it on the next step." Nor are they "negative" or cause tension. You maintain this despite plenty of evidence thatt Annika Sorenstam (a Vision 54 gal), Tiger Woods, Justin Rose, recent PGA Tour winners, major champions, and more all clearly demonstrating or saying that they have swing thoughts over the golf ball.

      You're not tilting at windmills nor are you on some noble quest to educate those of us who can't think about things as such a deep level… you're just continually expressing opinions that almost nobody agrees with or getting basic facts wrong. Your opinions lack a foundation, and once they're let out of the vacuum chamber that is your head, they're crushed by the weight of reality.

    2. Righty to Lefty

      Righty to Lefty

      Time will tell...sorry for posting publicly in your account Puttin4Dough. My apologies.  I will take this back to the public forum!! 

       

    3. iacas

      iacas

      Time will tell what? Whether your definition of "ballstriking" holds up? No. Whether ballstriking is the single most important part of scoring? Time has told on that one. Whether players with a swing thought can perform well? Same answer: time has told.

       

  2. Puttin4Dough

    Playing Golf Without a Thought

    You bypassed my stairs analogy. Why? Do you really think about walking down stairs, like "foot here, arm here, weight here"? You don't. Any pro who's thinking about their swing over the ball, other than the most fleeting thought, is not on TV. Thinking adds tension...it's well documented. The problem is we are using the term "thinking" because each person defines that differently. But there's "thinking" as in "I'm about to hit a ball to there", and thinking "Ok, don't forget X, Y, and Z".
  3. Puttin4Dough

    Playing Golf Without a Thought

    Golf is not without thought...I never said that. My overall point is there's a barrier between thinking and swinging. A Tour pro can have 20 thoughts, but of the one's I've played with, when they get over the ball they zone-out. That's why some pro's advise to have a think-box and hit-box. It has to be separate. The second anyone thinks "Oh, remember to do this" over the ball it's not good. It's called not prepared. The stairs analogy is perfect for this topic. You don't think about walking down stairs, you do it. Sure, you can think "don't trip", but that's before the steps, not during. If during the process, one will tense-up. My old high school golf coach did a fun demonstration regarding the mindset in golf using stairs. He got us into a room with a chalkboard and had us diagram each movement to walk down stairs. Left leg does this, right that, arm does this, other arm does that, weight here, now weight there. After the intense discussion about "how to walk down stairs", he had each of us go to the top of a long flight of stairs and he said "OK, walk down the stairs, don't fall". Guess what? Every single person grabbed the railing after a several steps. He said if your swing is not as comfortable as walking down stairs, if you have to think about it, you'll have a hard time ever reaching top-level golf play. So when you approach some stairs next time, of course you'll think "Ok, here's some stairs, don't trip" but it's a fleeting thought, not "DON'T TRIP...LEFT LEG HERE, RIGHT LEG HERE", etc. Point is a majority of the golf swing must be 2nd nature IMO. Yes I am talking about "over the ball". But I think you're into a different discussion. Yes, I can easily sabotage my swing with forced movements. So sure, it's possible to control movements during a swing. But when a bad habit collides with the brain in 1.5 seconds, forget about it.
  4. Puttin4Dough

    Playing Golf Without a Thought

    Erik...if a golf swing requires much more thought than walking down a flight of stairs, it's a variable swing based on shaky ground. It's all about preparation, ingrained thought. Anyone who remains focused upon anything near rudimentary swing mechanics at any significant level isn't on Tour. That's beginning golf stuff. So the grip doesn't matter? It doesn't so much for him because he's "at home' with any club. I would say he has an innate sense of control of the club face over many years of practice. I bet he can bounce a ball 100 times off a SW.
  5. Puttin4Dough

    Playing Golf Without a Thought

    Vinsk, believe what you want...that's fine. But when you get into "somatic neuro pathway's", you lose everyone. I never thought of a "somatic neuro pathway" when walking down stairs, eating with a fork, or turning the wheel to avoid hitting another car. It happens via repetition, or a millionth of a second reaction. The problem is a vast majority of golfers think they can control movement. They can't. It must become a rudimentary, innately involuntary movement...much like "I have a club in my hands...I do this...now".
  6. Puttin4Dough

    Playing Golf Without a Thought

    Erik, I think the players you know are pulling your leg if they tell you they think about swing thoughts over the ball, and especially during their swing, or they aren't top-end Tour players. There's no way they're inviting a terribly inefficient and negative thought-process to hitting a ball that is in direct contrast to fluidly of movement. Couples talks about feeling "oily" during the swing.. That means loose...no tension. I played with Couples on numerous occasions. He let us know PDQ to stop saying "great shot" after his shots. He said "I hit them all like that". There wasn't a moment where he wasn't swinging the club as effortlessly (from our view) like he was walking down stairs.
  7. Puttin4Dough

    Playing Golf Without a Thought

    Sorry Vinsk, not happening. Do you really think about walking down stairs...bringing a fork to your mouth, or tossing a golf ball 10 feet to someone? The answer is no, you don't...no one does. It's ingrained. Erik's poll doesn't support your swing thought theory for 25% or more of golfers. I agree, the other 75% are embroiled in far too many swing thoughts...it's why they take a practice swing then take a swing that looks like they're avoiding a plane landing on them. What are their swing thoughts? Please hit the ball? Don't shank? I know plenty of scratch folks who have maybe two swing thoughts, but that occurs before setup....behind the ball. They're practice moves...not over the ball. To that extent, we haven't defined when these swing thoughts are employed. Is it during the swing or away from the ball before address?
  8. Puttin4Dough

    Playing Golf Without a Thought

    The topic is swing without a thought. The poll results make sense because more advanced golfers aren't focused on swing thoughts, they're focused on the target and they're relying upon their training. There's no way for the brain to manipulate all the muscles required in 1.5 seconds. If you think it can...post the studies.
  9. Puttin4Dough

    Playing Golf Without a Thought

    I include playing time because otherwise what's the point unless one heavily weights range practice for which I've read countless articles that practicing and playing are two different things. Plank on the ground vs. 50 stories high.
  10. Puttin4Dough

    Playing Golf Without a Thought

    The poll results make sense. About 25% of golfers have progressed beyond rudimentary swing thoughts, and 6% would about match those who are single digit golfers. That's a very good poll.
  11. Puttin4Dough

    Playing Golf Without a Thought

    Once you get past the unique movements and zero-in on what goes through someone's head while performing either, the two world's collide. Both require constant practice as well as instruction to move to an advanced level. i know folks who have "like-new" Steinway or Yamaha grands in their living room who now rarely play. They found out that getting past beginner level, let alone moving to intermediate, is HARD. That sounds an awful lot like golf. Playing anything for years doesn't equate to "accomplishment" other than "playing". Intermediate level in golf (IMO) is shooting in the high 70's. How many folks do you know, out of all the golfers you've come across, consistently shoot in the high 70's? In my experience <10%. The rest think they'll improve via new clubs, tips and tricks, short-cuts, etc., but they haven't...and won't. They've already put in well over 10,000 hours and are barely past beginner level. I'm sure my buddies who've played for 30 years and still shoot in the 90's have spent far more than 10,000 hours playing and practicing golf. Thus, time doesn't equate to improvement. The vast majority of players in either start out with a firm commitment to learn, then once they find out how much it takes, they drop-off or remain stagnate. To that extent, it's a hobby. But if one plays 5 or more times per week, with instruction on a consistent basis, and follows instruction, and avoids the tip-of-the-day, then intermediate is not a stretch in a much shorter time period. Other than that, there's an eventual dead-end everyone hits in golf or piano. That dead-end is the realization that new clubs or new piano, tips, tricks, meditation, hitting more balls....whatever...aren't helping. As for swinging without a thought, that's an open-ended discussion that means something different to each person. For either piano or golf, one can't think of much of anything because both movements unfold faster than the brain can instruct. It must become substantially instinctual, like walking down stairs. How much thought does it take to walk across a 24 inch wide plank laying on the ground? Nothing, just walk. However, how much thought would suddenly arise if the plank was 40 stories high between two buildings? A lot. And there would be all kinds of advice, videos, etc, on how to walk the plank 40 stories high.
  12. Puttin4Dough

    Playing Golf Without a Thought

    How about a concert pianist? You think that's easy compared to golf? They don't think of squat while playing. The minute they think they're dead. Golf is actually far easier than piano because it takes all of 1.5 seconds to swing.
  13. I post swing thoughts and techniques that are straight from top golf instructors I've worked with, and/or tour pro's, . But the problem is even top instructors disagree with each other. Why? Because the person receiving the information doesn't think the same way. Therefore, golf swing instruction will never be universal. Even tour pro's have a difficult time finding the right instructor because nobody has invented anything new about the golf swing despite claims made otherwise, but each swing is highly individual and unique. Everyone teaches differently and students react to instruction differently. Give a student something more difficult to work on and they'll say "it ruined my swing" and continue shooting 102. The incalculable number of videos and books about golf reveals the fact that everyone perceives swing movement and feel differently. Some don't want to put in the time but expect results. Others practice inefficient moves for decades. Some are naturally talented like 2 year old Tiger hitting balls on the Merv Griffin Show. People say golf takes decades to learn, but explain why a 10 year old kid can drive the ball 220 who started golf at 8 years old. That's my neighbor's kid, and in his case we shy away from explaining anything "mechanical"...we let him play. Some folks might post what sounds like a pro giving them "bad" instruction, but it's likely because that instructor is working on a specific issue to undo a bad habit, therefore the initial post and subsequent comments are meaningless.. I don't disagree with instruction on TSP, i point out different thoughts, but 99% of the time i receive sarcastic "you're wrong" responses. Disagreeing with a person's individual swing thoughts or how they learn is like disagreeing with how someone talks, what colors they like, pace of walking, or the car they drive..
  14. You made the inference to car salesman....not me. Do you read what you write? It's like dealing with someone with acute ADD. I don't even know where to begin. If you allow students with lousy swings to build upon a false premise, then that's your deal, and why folks dislike instructors. It's by far the worst way to teach anything. Good gawd, you ran another thread about "non conning yourself" but then apparently you con your students. I can't keep up with your lack of logic. You have a handful of sycophants who agree with anything you write...but you are one guy in Erie PA who has never played on tour, your team members can barely win a city championship, but you want everyone to believe you're the guru of golf. It's just utterly ridiculous.
  15. Golf instructors are like car salesman....now that I think folks might agree with, but it's not because they're bad instructors in many cases because golf is a focused, individual, personal achievement game. A bad shot is a reflection upon one's ability. Guys tend to be more egotistical. They want to show others they can "learn on their own" like they're "beating the odds". Similar to why guys will drive all around town vs. asking for directions. In golf, they "drive all around town" looking for tips and fixes vs. "asking for directions" from an instructor'. Aside from golf, why do people set-out to play piano or guitar, then after a short time they quit? It's because they think they can learn without mastering the basics such as playing scales with proper fingering. But they're off to trying to tackle Beethoven's 5th Symphony before they can piece together Mary Had a Little Lamb. The problem in golf, like piano, is people develop and ingrain their own version of technique that is often bad to the core. Unwinding bad habits in piano is 100X harder than learning the right way from the start. In their minds what they're doing is "right" because it's become habitual / comfortable, and at some point they might string together two measures of a difficult song, or in golf, hit a great shot, which only serves to reinforce bad technique.. So IMO I don't bother teaching around bad fundamentals. I tell the person they need to forget everything and start over....much like learning the scales in piano using proper technique. A lot of instructors are criticized for a student's lack of advancement because they are hesitant to start folks from square one because that would essentially erase years of "hard work" for the guy who thinks shooting much lower is "just around the corner".
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