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Golfnutgalen

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Posts posted by Golfnutgalen

  1. There is a stat which is very similar to strokes gained  which goes back quite a bit further all the way to 1983. Here is the tour's definition of both stats:

    Stroke Differential to field average: Average strokes per round played that a player was better/worse than the per round field average.

    Strokes Gained Total: The per round average of the number of Strokes the player was better or worse than the field average on the same course & event.

    So at first glance they seem the same, but there are definitely differences exactly why is unclear to me. Does SG use an additional adjustment for field strength? Here is a list of the best figures in the differential stat. Tiger shows up prominently even without including his 2008 stats

    PGA Tour Strokes Differential Field Average 1983-2019


    1) 3.84 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2000

    2) 3.39 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2006

    3) 3.21 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2007

    4) 3.04 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2009

    5) 3.03 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2002

    6) 2.98 strokes – Tiger Woods, 1999

    7) 2.82 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2003

    😎 2.67 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2005

    9) 2.59 strokes – Greg Norman, 1993

    10) 2.56 strokes – Vijay Singh, 2003

    11) 2.55 strokes – Vijay Singh, 2004

    12) 2.50 strokes – Greg Norman, 1990

    13) 2.45 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2001

    14) 2.41 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2004

    15) 2.40 strokes – Jim Furyk, 2006

    16) 2.40 strokes – Dustin Johnson, 2018

    17) 2.37 strokes – Jack Nicklaus, 1984

    18) 2.37 strokes – Greg Norman, 1994

    19) 2.36 strokes – Rory McIlroy, 2014

    20) 2.27 strokes – Ernie Els, 2004

    21) 2.24 strokes – David Duval, 1999

    22) 2.24 strokes – Vijay Singh, 2005

    23) 2.23 strokes – Mike Weir, 2003

    24) 2.23 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2012

    25) 2.22 strokes – Fred Couples, 1992

    26) 2.22 strokes – Jordan Spieth, 2015

    27) 2.21 strokes – Greg Norman, 1995

    28) 2.21 strokes –Rory McIlroy, 2019

    It seems odd to me that Rory's number and positioning is so different here. I think the main reason is we have 14 years in between which are pre-strokes gained and if we remove those he moves all the way up to 14th. Still, in this stat his numbers rank behind Tiger in 2005, 2004, and 2012 and his own figures in 2014.

     

     

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  2. I did some digging and found out some more information regarding Tiger Woods' consecutive  cut streak and cut streaks in general. I remember clearly back when people tried to diminish his record because it included many no-cut events. Well, it turns out the same can be said of every other player as well! According to a sports illustrated article from 2003 only around 30% of the events included in Byron Nelson's 113 steak had a 36-hole cut. To make this clear, even the Masters had no cut until 1957 and players who finished outside of the money are not labeled as a missed cut. Anyway the point is Tiger's record 142 consecutive cuts looks as good as ever. If you do have to remove no cut events Tiger is still on top with 111 and number 2 is none other than Jack Nicklaus with 101.

    But anyway, using the modern definition of consecutive cuts made - which includes no cut events -  here is a new list. Hogan, Nelson, and Snead would be up here except once again those events didn't have cuts as we know them today. I am sure there are more missing names, but the data is way too uncertain pre 1980. Also these totals include the Open Championship which is overlooked in the official stats.

    1. Tiger Woods - 1998-05:  142

    2. Jack Nicklaus - 1970-76: 111

    3. Hale Irwin - 1975-78: 90

    4. Dow Finsterwald - 1955-58: 72

    5. Arnold Palmer - 1961-65: 65+

     

    Modern Era 1980-2019:

    1. Tiger Woods - 1998-05: 142

    2. Tom Kite - 1980-82: 54

    3. Vijay Singh - 1995-98: 49

    4. Steve Stricker - 2009-12: 49

    5. Ernie Els - 2004-07: 46

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  3. Here are the rest of the strokes gained top 10. Just remember Tiger had 5 other years which would have a good chance at making the grade.

    Strokes Gained Total 2004-’19
    1)+3.82 - Tiger Woods, 2008 (only 6 events)

     

    1)+3.30 - Tiger Woods, 2006

    2)+3.19 - Tiger Woods, 2009

    3)+3.09 - Tiger Woods, 2007

    4)+2.55 - Rory McIlroy, 2019

    5)+2.50 - Jim Furyk, 2006

    6)+2.41 - Rory McIlroy, 2012

    7)+2.40 - Tiger Woods, 2005

    8)+2.38 - Tiger Woods, 2004

    9)+2.37 - Dustin Johnson, 2018

    10)+2.31 - Tiger Woods, 2012

     

    There's another stat that goes back a bit further and is very similar, but not quite the same as strokes gained. Tiger absolutely dominates.

    PGA Tour Strokes Differential Field Average '83-'19
    1) 3.84 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2000

    2) 3.39 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2006

    3) 3.21 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2007

    4) 3.04 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2009

    5) 3.03 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2002

    6) 2.98 strokes – Tiger Woods, 1999

    7) 2.82 strokes – Tiger Woods, 2003

    😎 2.67 strokes –  Tiger Woods, 2005

    9) 2.59 strokes – Greg Norman, 1993

    10) 2.56 strokes – Vijay Singh, 2003

     

  4. 17 minutes ago, Jay28 said:

    Woods is so bad off the tee on any difficult course, he should maybe think about taking 5 iron.

    It can't be any worse than his long irons and woods.

    Just don't think he has the game on any course that has tight fairways and difficult rough - not good enough. 

    He hasn't played in forever. For the year he's 54th in accuracy and 69th in strokes gained off the tee so there are plenty worse than him.

  5. 8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

    Well Phil you know how it goes with this stuff. Analysts and announcers can never just say, ‘ Hey a nice win for John Doe...let's wish him all the best in the future.’ It’s always ‘Keep an eye on this guy’, ‘You’re gonna see his name a lot on the leader board.’ ‘ He’s gonna get a lot more wins I tell ya that ..’

    James Haan, Hudson Swafford, Andrew Landry, ? Putnam, Matthew Fitzgerald, Patton Kazzire?, Ben Huh, Kevin Streelman,   I mean the list goes on and on. Now it’s Patrick Cantlay...it’s all they could talk about on the radio. He’ll be lucky to be in the top 10 on the leaderboards the rest of the season.

    You do know Patrick has had 8 top 10s already including a 3rd in the PGA and is 1st in scoring average right? Much of that has been ignored in favor of complaining about his pace of play, but the dude has been solid.

  6. The problem with putting Phil in front at #3 is somebody like Rory could pass his 5 major total quite easily. When Phil was Rory's age he had 13 wins and 0 majors. Rory has 15 and 4 in case anybody forgot while playing fewer events in his early years on tour.

    The Tom Watson comparison is more interesting. They had similar win percentages at their best (11% for Watson, 9.4% for Phil), but Tom has 3 extra majors while being 5 short in total wins. What is a bit crazy to consider nowadays is Tom was credited with only 32 wins as late as 1994, none of those 5 Open wins were official at the time! The player I find is always underrated today is Arnold with 62 wins from 1955-1973. That is more impressive to me than Ben Hogan's 64 wins from 1938-1959...except for that one missing major of course.

  7. 1 hour ago, turtleback said:

    No, he didn't.  Sometimes Jones won, sometimes Hagen did.  They were each supreme, in their world, in matchplay, but since Hagen was a pro he couldn't play in the match play events Jones played in (the Amateurs) and since Jones was an Am he couldn't play in the match play events Hagen played in (the PGA).  Which was better at match play?

    Hagen beat Jones in their famous Match of the Century, 12 & 11 in the nominally 72 hole match.

    The match of the Century is mostly meaningless though, not much more than a silly season event. As for the rest I disagree, both players played great golf in basically the same time frame and Jones was superior in the events they both attended. In the 13 majors they both played Jones got the better of Hagen 10 times and won 5 while Hagen never won an Open with Jones in the field. That's fairly dominant in my eyes. Also going back to the US Open importance, Jones won 4 vs Hagen's 2. I can see justifying ranking Hagen over Jones on the strength of his 45 total tour wins, but that seems a bit unfair because Jones only played a handful of events.

    Still, Hagen was incredible. He won 24% of his events (45/190) by the time of his last win age 43. Definitely comparable to Hogan if we assume that they competed in a similar level of competition.

     

  8. 33 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

     

    No career Grand Slam is a crack in the armor for Palmer/Snead/Mickelson/Watson compared to Hogan.

    Plus Hogan had the bus accident and played prime Tiger level golf after it. This should not be ignored. 

    Indeed. I've tried in the past to make a case for both Byron and Snead over Hogan, but I don't think it's a strong enough argument. Correct me if I'm wrong, the US Open was huge back in the day by far the most important tournament in US golf up until maybe 1960 When the Masters gained a ton of traction.

    Even ignoring the accident, Ben Hogan won 25% of his events up until age 40 which is something nobody has done since outside of Tiger Woods.

    Best win percentages up to age 43 post-Bobby Jones

    1.      Ben Hogan (43) 1932-1957 - 63 wins in 262 events (24.05%)

    2.      Tiger Woods (43) 1996-2019 - 81 wins in 338 events (23.96%)

    3.      Sam Snead (43) 1931-1956 - 75 wins in 341 events (21.99%)

    4.      Byron Nelson (43) 1933-1955 - 52 wins in 261 events (19.92%)

    5.      Jack Nicklaus (43) 1961-1983 - 71 wins in 429 events (16.55%)

    6.      Arnold Palmer (43) 1954-1972 - 61 wins in 465 events (13.02%)

    7.      Billy Casper (43) 1954-1975 - 51 wins in 464 events (10.99%)

    8.      Phil Mickelson (43) 1991-2013 - 42 wins in 477 events (8.81%)

    9.      Vijay Singh (43) 1992-2006 - 29 wins in 360 events (8.06%)

    10.      Tom Watson (43) 1971-1993 - 37 wins in 497 events (7.44%)

    6 minutes ago, Piz said:

    A pretty good case can be made for Walter Hagen.  He won 11 majors despite there being no Open Championship in 1915 thru 1919, no US Open in 1917 or 1918, and no Masters until 1934.  

    The only problem is Jones trounced Hagen in actual tournament play. And nobody is willing to give Jones credit anymore. In a stretch of 9 US Opens Jones finished won 4 and finished 2nd 4 more times! Jones winning percentage in the majors up to 1930 actually goes up if you exclude his amateur wins to a ludicrous 7/15 wins.

  9. Another vote for Ben Hogan here. The dude had a stretch were he played in 5 US Opens and won 4 finishing 3rd in the other! I think the numbers actually favor Sam over Ben 64 and 9 vs 81 and 7, but that US Open record has clinched it for me. I think Arnold Palmer doesn't get enough recognition nowadays as well, 62 wins 7 majors in an arguably tougher era in golf - vs the WWII era.

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  10. 8 hours ago, brocks said:

    Thanks for the correction.  I don't know how I managed to forget to subtract the majors, but in my defense, I'm a moron.  The British Open's unofficial status is a more subtle error, so congrats for spotting it. 

    I actually got my stats from a saved copy of a post I made several years ago to the old Golf Channel board, so I'm not sure what herb or beverage might have influenced me at the time I did the original calculation, but henceforth I'll double-check when I copy from an old post.  Thanks again for your very polite correction.

    You're welcome Brocks! I'm glad my intent wasn't misunderstood as an insult or anything like that.

    Jack's win percentage numbers are incredible and nobody who started their career after him has been even close - with one notable exception of course. I made a list of the greats career numbers up to about age 45 and after Jack and the best I could find was Vijay Singh at 8.29%. Rory is slightly higher at this moment (9.5%), but it is a tall ask for him to retain that number 15 years down the road.

    1.      Ben Hogan (45) 1932-1958 - 63 wins in 265 events (23.77%)

    2.      Walter Hagen (45) 1915-1938 - 45 wins in 192 events (23.44%)

    3.      Sam Snead (45) 1931-1958 - 78 wins in 366 events (21.31%)

    4.      Byron Nelson (39) 1933-1951 - 52 wins in 246 events (21.14%)

    5.      Jack Nicklaus (45) 1961-1985 - 72 wins in 459 events (15.70%)

    6.  Gene Sarazen (45) 1920-1946 - 39 wins in 261 events (14.94%)

    7.  Arnold Palmer (45) 1954-1974 - 62 wins in 516 events (12.02%)

    8.  Cary Middlecoff (45) 1947-1966 - 40 wins in 333 events (12.01%)

    9.  Paul Runyan (45) 1930-1953 - 29 wins in 249 events (11.65%)

    10.  Billy Casper (44) 1954-1976 - 51 wins in 488 events (10.45%)

    11.  Vijay Singh (45) 1992-2008 - 34 wins in 410 events (8.29%)

    12.  Phil Mickelson (45) 1991-2015 - 42 wins in 529 events (7.94%)

    13.  Tom Watson (45) 1971-1995 - 37 wins in 530 events (6.98%)

    14.  Greg Norman (45) 1979-2000 - 20 wins in 298 events (6.71%)

    15.      Lee Trevino (45) 1962-1985 - 29 wins in 441 events (6.58%)

     

    And a few greats who really only have data in the majors only:

    1.      Bobby Jones (28) 1920-1930 - 13 wins in 31 majors (41.94%)

    2.      Harry Vardon (44) 1893-1914 - 7 wins in 24 majors (29.17%)

    3.      Willie Anderson (31) 1897-1910 - 4 wins in 14 majors (28.57%)

    4.      James Braid (44) 1894-1914 – 5 wins in 20 majors (25%)

    5.      J.H. Taylor (43) 1893-1914 - 5 wins in 24 majors (20.83%)

    6.  Peter Thomson (43) 1951-1973 - 5 wins in 36 majors (13.89%)

    7.  Bobby Locke (42) 1936-1959 - 4 wins in 29 majors (13.79%)

    8.  Jim Barnes (45) 1916-1930 - 4 wins in 32 majors (12.50%)

    Some of the numbers before 1960 are probably a little off, I just went with what I could find.

  11. 3 hours ago, brocks said:

    Tiger played 239 official PGA events from turning pro through 2009, including 50 majors and 30 WGCs, leaving 159 "regular" events.  

    He won 41 of the 159 regular events, or 25.8%.
    He won 14 of the 50 majors, or 28.0 %.
    He won 16 of the 30 WGCs, or 53.3%.

    Jack played 345 official PGA events from 1962-1978 inclusive, including 68 majors (and obviously this was before WGC's were established), leaving 277 "regular" events.  

    He won 67 of the 277 regular events, or 24.2%.
    He won 15 of the 68 majors, or 22.1%.

    I just wanted to add that the data you have for Nicklaus is a little off as far as I know. You forgot to remove the majors from his regular event total. Also the tour's website doesn't include the Open in their total starts stat up until 1995 the date it became an official event. I'm not trying to be rude, I just spent a lot of time on gathering the stats myself a while back.

    Here's Jack from his first pro event in 1962 to the end of 1978:

    Won 53 of the 285 regular events, or 18.6%.
    Won 15 of the 68 majors, or 22.1%.

    Total win percentage: 19.26%

    And Tiger from 1996-2009

    Won 57 of the 189 regular events, or 30.2%.
    Won 14 of the 50 majors, or 28%.

    Total win percentage: 29.71%

    Even after a brutal next decade Tiger's numbers are absurd. Jack's are as well, they just seem to pale in comparison.

    Tiger up to the 2019 Masters (age 43)

    Won 66 of the 263 regular events, or 25.1%.
    Won 15 of the 75 majors, or 20%.

    Total win percentage: 24%

    Jack up to 1983, age 43

    Won 54 of the 341 regular events, or 15.8%.
    Won 17 of the 88 majors, or 19.3%.

    Total win percentage: 16.6%

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  12. If we exclude Amateur starts Tiger and Jack's peak win percentages (both at the age of 33 coincidentally) were 29.7% and 19.6% respectively. It is hard to fathom just how insane Tiger was and apparently still is! Now after a few lean years Tiger's number has dropped slightly to 24% while Jack was at 17% at the same point in his career.

     

  13. Thanks for fact checking just now! Man, where did you find some of that info??? I do love old (and new) stats. Either way Snead and Hogan should up there somewhere and are currently nowhere to be found in the official tally.

    1. Tiger 142

    2. Byron 113

    3. Jack 105 (+6 British Opens)

    4. Hale Irwin 86

    5. Dow Finsterwald 72

    6. Tom Kite 53

     

     

  14. 3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

    Woods made the cut 142 times in a row. The next closest is Byron Nelson at 113. I think it would be easier to make the cut. You have 2 rounds of leeway. You can shoot 75 and 65 and make a cut.

    That is really a crazy stat.

    The beat the field streak of 89 is definitely impressive, but it only goes back to 1983 ignoring most of golf history. Now even though the consecutive cut stat does date back much further the actual record holder may not be Tiger. If you look at the PGA Tour's data it has Ben Hogan making a cut in every event from 1939-1947, a staggering 164 events. The actual total is higher, but we don't know which events he missed in 1938 and 1948. Sports Illustrated said the total was 177 in an old article, but I'm not confident about that number because they list the dates up to 1950 even though he withdrew in an event in 1948. Sam Snead may hold the unofficial record as well with at least 220 events from 1939-1951 without an MC according to the PGA Tour. He may have missed one cut in 1946 though which would give him 2 streaks of around 100+ which is still ridiculous.  

    If we limit it to just events with a modern 36 hole cut line then we have our favorites Tiger and Jack at the top where they belong.

    Tiger: 111 (142 events minus 31 with no cut)

    Jack: 101 (minus 10 with no cut)

    Here's the article if you guys are interested. It dates back to 2003, so you have to add a few more event to Tiger's total. I might have miscounted.

    https://www.si.com/vault/2003/05/12/342809/the-real-cut-streak-forget-what-the-pga-tour-says-the-record-held-by-byron-nelson-should-belong-to-ben-hogan

     

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