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Found 55 results

  1. I know you can ask for a second opinion but what if they still tell you the wrong ruling after the second opinion? What happens to the -Rules Official- and the stroke made after the wrong ruling?
  2. That's the bottom tweet, but the whole exchange looks a bit more like this: We've known that professional golfers are often not the most knowledgeable of the Rules, and so this Twitter conversation shouldn't surprise anyone. This topic exists to share stories of pro golfers and the 2019 Rules. That means we might find ourselves discussing a pro golfer screwing something up, talking about the Rules changes, doing something under the 2018 Rules accidentally, whatever. Here's another example: PGA Tour players preparing for new rules, Bryson DeChambeau more than others - Golf Digest I'll pin the topic for now, as I expect the beginning of the year might see a flurry of activity, while I also suspect it will die down by about March or April. Though video of pros putting with the flagsticks in at Augusta National or any other major championship will be particularly fun to see… BTW I recommended to Brittany that she check out RulesGeeks.com. You should as well.
  3. Hi guys potential issue at our club, 8 th hole uphill OOB all up left side but a cart path runs up left side about 6 to 8 feet from fence. There are small trees planted along the fence which used to be staked so free drop, now they have grown stakes are gone and no free drop which is fine. ( free drop made hole too easy imho). Problem is if a ball stops on the gravel path and you are right handed the room to drop is small and trees and fence interfere. This makes it difficult in places to even have a playable shot after a free drop. You couldn’t play from path with out destroying a club but seems harsh that your only 5 yards off the fairway on a man made path but have to drop where it’s virtually unplayable. There are places where if you took relief it would be unplayable then two clubs only gets you back to path! can we make a local rule that all drop to right of path if a ball is on the path? Or a drop zone for path? Or is it just tough? thanks
  4. One of our holes in our resort golf course has a wide water area on the left and trees and swamp on the right. Both sides have been designated as red marked penalty areas. Balls hit into either penalty area are allowed a drop area which is in front of all the tees and on the fairway. On the left, the water stretches the entire hole and it is 30 - 40 yards wide. Across the water are houses. Should a golfer who hits his tee shot into the penalty area and further into the houses is he allowed the drop area or must he re-tee. As a follow up if the answer to the above is re-tee, How certain must that Golf be that the ball did not completely cross the hazard as line of sight is sometimes blocked by shrubbery. Another interesting point made by the head pro was what happens on that hole if a ball is sliced to the right across the red line and way up over the trees and swampy area. No one knows whether it came down on the golf course or on land not owned by the golf course.
  5. http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization.html http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/an-overview-of-the-rules-modernization-initiative.html Now that the finalized 2019 rules are out, we'll use this topic to take over for the previous one, which was here: Here are the major changes: Ball at Rest Ball in Motion Taking Relief Areas of the Course Equipment Playing a Ball When to Play During a Round Player Behavior
  6. I think the USGA/R&A got this one completely wrong, and it's one of the two rules changes for 2019 that I absolutely hate. One of the great things about golf is that it's a self-policed game. At every level of the sport, we're supposed to call penalties on ourselves and know the rules. Rule 6-1 - the first rule in "The Player" - is "The player and his caddie are responsible for knowing the Rules." In the 2019 Rules, that says "Players are responsible for applying the Rules to themselves:" Except that they're not, really, because there's absolutely no further penalty to be had if they fail to play by and apply the Rules to themselves. In 2019, all you have to do is claim ignorance of a rule, and if nobody catches you, you get away free and clear. Worst case scenario* - you're caught and the strokes you actually incur (but no additional strokes) are added to your score. Outside of not wanting to get a reputation as a cheater, there's no longer any incentive to apply the Rules of golf to yourself in 2019 and beyond. Only a few short years ago, as you may know, failure to include a penalty stroke meant you posted a score for a hole lower than what you shot, and you were DQed. That rule still exists… so long as you don't claim that you didn't know you broke the rule. Only recently, the rule was changed to add two strokes additionally to each penalty you incurred. The rule got softer. It went from a DQ to an additional penalty. Fine - there's still incentive to know the Rules. Had Lexi brain farted and put her ball down nearly an inch from where it was a second prior, and added the two-stroke penalty to her score, she'd have likely won that major and been hailed as Bobby Jones was in 1925: At the 1925 U.S. Open, Bobby Jones moved his ball slightly while setting up for a shot. No one saw it, but Jones was adamant that the ball had moved and assessed himself a one-stroke penalty, costing him the win, as he went on to lose in a playoff. Praised for his classy move, Jones quipped, “You might as well praise me for not robbing banks.” No, nowadays, we have Lexi Thompson playing the role of the victim, and the press willingly going along with it. Lexi did breach the rules. Did it suck that she gained no apparent advantage (though why did she move the ball so much? to avoid a spike mark or something we couldn't see?)? Yes. But the Rules, except for a few instances, don't care about the "potential" advantage. Normally playing a ball from further away is a disadvantage, but when Tiger Woods dropped two yards back it was, to him in that moment, an advantage. The Rules can't (and thus rarely do) determine whether an "advantage" is gained - one man's advantage is another man's disadvantage. If you drop on a sideslope instead of a flat lie where you're supposed to drop, is that an advantage or a disadvantage? The Rules can't - and thus almost never do - decide. They simply say "you dropped and then played from a wrong place in breach of the Rules. That's a penalty." The full (relevant) portion of the Rules is: (3) Wrong Score for a Hole. If the player returns a scorecard with a wrong score for any hole: Returned Score Higher Than Actual Score. The higher returned score for the hole stands. Returned Score Lower Than Actual Score or No Score Returned. The player isdisqualified. Exception – Failure to Include Unknown Penalty: If one or more of the player’s hole scores are lower than the actual scores because he or she excluded one or more penalty strokes that the player did not know about before returning the scorecard: The player is not disqualified. Instead, if the mistake is found before the close of the competition, theCommittee will revise the player’s score for that hole or holes by adding the penalty stroke(s) that should have been included in the score for that hole or holes under the Rules. This exception does not apply: When the excluded penalty is disqualification, or When the player was told that a penalty might apply or was uncertain whether a penalty applied and did not raise this with the Committee before returning thescorecard. The exception is the big thing here, the big change from even 2017. It says that, if you claim that you didn't know that hitting it OB was stroke and distance and you fail to include the "stroke part," no problem. It says that if you claim not to know that you couldn't hit a practice shot while playing a round after you flub an approach, no sweat. It says that if you drop a ball in a wrong place when dropping on the wrong side of a cart path and gaining a much better lie, or two club lengths from the edge of a yellow penalty area, or two yards back like Tiger did at the Masters… or anything else… that doesn't matter at all! You're all good! That part above about how players are responsible for knowing and applying the Rules? They didn't actually mean that. There's no long any incentive, outside of perhaps not wanting to be seen as a serial cheater, to know the Rules of Golf. Not the ones that can penalize you, anyway. Sure, there are still incentives to know when you get free drops away from cart paths and things like that, but players are now actively incentivized to not only play ignorant, but to actually BE ignorant to the Rules of Golf. If they're not caught, they get away with it. If they are caught, why, they only get the penalty they actually incurred. Nothing more. You're obligated to pay taxes. If you fail to pay, and you're caught three years later… you don't just pay what you originally owed. You owe what you originally owed, plus interest, plus additional penalties. I get that the USGA/R&A are trying to treat players as honest, but in going to this length they've gone much too far. They're actually rewarding the dishonest players. They're rewarding the ignorant players. This saddens me greatly. 😢 P.S. Yes, the poll choices are highly biased. Tough. It's my poll, and I don't think there's an argument to be made. 😄
  7. So on March 16-19, @GolfLug and I will be attending another USGA/PGA Rules seminar. I currently have a list of three things to ask about, but I'm curious if there are others: Prolonged use of music on the course. Etiquette? If not to aid you in playing, why? Balls "embedded" in sand-filled divots. Agreeing to leave a ball in place "to help a player." I might feel I know how they'll be answered, but I've told people I'd ask, and share the generalized response… Any others? If they're clear, I may just say "no, that's clear" and shoot the idea down pretty quickly.
  8. But still have complexities. I noticed yesterday there is an illustration that indicates that a ball in the wall or face of a bunker is not in the bunker, but no clear discussion of what this means. To be clear, the illustration has the ball clearly in the sand of the bunker wall, not the grass/lip area,
  9. The 2019 Rules of Golf were pitched to many as not only a “modernized” version of the Rules, but also a rules package that encouraged faster play AND were simpler. I don’t think they’re that much simpler. Nor can they be, really. A few of the disparate penalties were coalesced, others changed… otherwise, not much simpler. Again I don’t think they CAN be much simpler. The NFL still may not know what a catch or roughing the passer is, the NHL can’t define goaltender interference or “head shots” very well, etc. Rules are complex especially when you play such varied fields, formats, etc. as golf.
  10. Questions: 1) How many penalty strokes did this player incur in 2018? What are they? 2) How many penalty strokes would this player incur in 2019? What are they? Notes: Don't look at the answers before giving your own answer. Here (below) or on Twitter. I think that the drop he takes to start the sequence is allowed in 2018 (and 2019). I'm not sure why he's dropping, though; maybe the ball is embedded in a closely mown area? Every answer I've seen takes no issue with that part.
  11. https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2017/rules-modernization/downloadable-material/Certain Topics or Proposals Not Addressed in the Proposed New Rules of Golf for 2019.pdf That may be one of the easiest to read and best documents out there. It casually bats away a number of assorted complaints and things about "why didn't they change this" or "why can't I drop from a divot hole," etc. I encourage everyone to take ten minutes to read it.
  12. Had a question about the new caddy rule and lining up a player. I understand it for the most part but if I am standing in front of my player for example on a putting green and the hole is between us once they take there stance would I be able to direct them verbally since I am not standing behind the player. Also could I direct them from some other position like from the side. I guess does this rule just prohibit giving alignment advice from behind the player? Was just a bit confused on this. Thanks for help on this and here is the rule. 2019 Rule: Under Rule 10.2b(4): The current prohibition will be extended so that, once the player begins taking a stance for the stroke, and until the stroke is made, the player’s caddie must not deliberately stand on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason. There will be no penalty if the caddie accidentally stands on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball, rather than in trying to help in lining up. Reasons for Change: Although a player may get advice from a caddie on the shot to be played, the line of play and similar matters, the ability to line up one’s feet and body accurately to a target line is a fundamental skill of the game for which the player alone should be responsible. Allowing a caddie to stand behind a player taking a stance so as to direct the player how to line up undermines the player’s need to use his or her own alignment skills and judgment. We believe that an appropriate line is drawn between allowing advice from a caddie and prohibiting the caddie from being involved in directing the player in the act of taking a stance to play the ball.
  13. Here is the video: Here are some photos from the video: I thought watching live (well, watching the first time, recorded on my DVR later in the evening) that he had improved his lie. You can certainly see more of the ball after he soles his club than before. But I'm leaning toward "inconclusive." This type of activity reportedly occurs frequently on the PGA Tour and people look the other way all the time.
  14. Ugh: I posted this in the other topic, but… if you don't know the rules, shut the heck up. The ball is holed as soon as it goes in the hole and beneath the level of the lip and comes to rest. They don't rip the flagstick out because it's a hack, amateur thing to do that risks pulling the whole cup out and damaging the cup, the lip, the hole, or whatever. Ugh. The other incident was today, too: C'mon guys. If you don't know the answer, don't talk.
  15. Phil Mickelson has found himself in breach of the Rules of Golf once again. At least he didn't lie about it and insult his fans afterward. Just a brain fart this time around. Unfortunately that clip also includes the announcers bumbling through stuff. Of course you can violate a rule without a ball in play. Of course you can violate a rule on the tee box. C'mon guys. These rules aren't that difficult, and… if you don't know, don't give your opinion.
  16. Hello everyone, I apologize if I'm posting in an inappropriate location as this is my first post, but I have a question regarding the Rules. I understand a person cannot place an object on the "line of the putt" at any point to help aid in a putt, but I was wondering if it's a rule violation to place a marker behind the hole while aligning the ball markings. It's easier to line the markings up with a smaller item sometimes than with the entire hole, and it would be placed directly behind the hole just while aligning the arrows on the ball. Rule 8-2b states one cannot place a mark on the "line of the putt," but "line of the putt" is defined as not extending past the hole, meaning that placing a mark behind the hole wouldn't violate this rule, as long as the mark was removed before the stroke was made. Thanks!
  17. The USGA and R&A are hosting a teleconference (I'll take part and may "live blog" it if possible this Wednesday, March 1, at 8:30am eastern time. It's scheduled to last one hour. Purpose: The USGA and The R&A will host a joint media teleconference on Wednesday, March 1 regarding the Rules of Golf Modernization initiative. Participants: Thomas Pagel, Senior Director, Rules of Golf & Amateur Status, USGA David Rickman, Executive Director – Governance and Chief of Staff, The R&A The expectation is that the rules will see massive, sweeping changes that greatly simplify and reduce the number and complexity of the Rules of Golf. Reportedly some of the changes may be: All water hazards will have four options (play it as it lies, stroke and distance, line back from last crossed point, two clublengths). Dropping may be eliminated. Measuring anything via clublengths may be eliminated (it will be interesting to see how that works if so…). Stroke play penalties will apply to match play, with the score coming at the end of the hole. Bunkers will be treated very differently (ability to move loose impediments, possibly take practice swings or ground clubs?) One stroke penalties almost exclusively. Kinder, gentler rules (like the 18-2 Local Rule) that relies more on player integrity to determine intent and fault. DMDs may be acceptable by rule for all rounds. Three (3) minutes for search instead of five (5). Could look very similar to http://simplegolfrules.com/CodeTwo/?showfile=CodeTwo.html minus the "points" system. Remember, those are a list of the rumors and "maybes." We'll know more shortly. It's expected that these Rules will undergo a long comment period, and the USGA/R&A are looking to enact the rules in 2019. The old thread discussing this was renewed again in early January: This will be the topic of record from now on. I'll lock the other thread as it was largely speculative, and in less than 48 hours, we'll have actual information to talk about. Update: 3/2/2017 - https://cl.ly/063A3i0a0q0d There is a PDF of the teleconference call that took place March 1 at 8:30am eastern time.
  18. http://golfweek.com/2018/02/07/the-forecaddie-pga-tour-takes-stand-with-bunker-liner-rule/ I'm glad, mostly, but without spending too much time looking into this… the bunker liner is man-made, and an obstruction, and the Rules of Golf grant you relief for obstructions for your stance, too. Isn't this a Rule 24 issue? Again, only two minutes of thought here, but I don't consider a bunker liner an abnormal ground condition.
  19. I've never been a fan of the "intent" stuff in the Rules of Golf. There are a few, like the Hideki situation, where they just muddy the waters and let a player who is less than honest skate. I looked for the word "intent" in the 2019 proposed rules PDF and found only four instances: 1. 3.2 - Match Play 2. 5.5a - Practice during play 3. 14.4 - Dropping, etc. 4. Definition of "Replace." Good! One of the places intent has mattered was the definition of a stroke. That definition still includes "intent" without using the word: Obviously other versions of the word "intent" can appear, like "intended." I searched for "inten" as well and came up with 23 pages in addition to the four above. Some non-notable ones included using equipment in an abnormal or "unintended" way, the area of the "intended" stance or swing (this version, re: the stance or swing, accounted for many of these), when the player intends or doesn't intend to stay in his stance to make a swing, etc. One of those searches even turned up "maintenance." Heck, the only notable - and barely at that - time the letters "inten" appear other than the four times above are in the definition of Line of Play - the definition is the line on which the player intends for the ball to go. This could affect whether they improve or mark their line of play. These tend to be pretty obvious, though. Otherwise it appears the word has been removed - thankfully - from a lot of rules, like the 1-2 one, and for the better. What do you guys think?
  20. https://www.golfdigest.com/story/this-latest-usga-equipment-decision-might-bring-artificial-intelligence-closer-to-competition The title is "This latest USGA equipment decision might bring artificial intelligence closer to competition" Arccos (and eventually, GAME GOLF) has a "virtual caddy" system that can tell you what club to hit and where to hit it. I don't think the USGA is saying that's allowed. If I read the Golf Digest story, it reads to me that the ability to tell you the yardage is allowed (it's the same as a GPS app)… but the article is written very confusingly. I don't understand how the recommendation "off the tee" is legal (but for an approach shot, it's not?) because "those recommendations can be made before a round begins." What about on the second tee? The round has already begun. It then goes on to say: But that's what the caddy does: offer club selection information/advice. It later adds: Okay… so that means it can't say "you're hitting your clubs shorter today, so instead of a 7-iron here, hit a 6-iron." Fine. That's easy enough. So… Is the "ruling" basically saying the Virtual Caddie, before you begin your round, can make a recommendation for what you should hit off each of the 18 tees before your round? I.e. it can't use information "live" from that round, and it's basically published "before" your round and doesn't change. If so, big whoop. Who cares about that? That's not a "virtual caddy." That's just a tiny bit of pre-planning, and for all you know the course is playing softer or firmer or the wind is in a different direction that day. Am I reading that right? Or did I miss something? The headline and the writeup are not very well done, IMO.
  21. This is for the discussion of this portion of the new Modernized Rules. Areas of the Course When to Replace a Ball That Moves on the Putting Green Repairing Damage on the Putting Green Touching Line of Play on a Putting Green Ball Played From Green Hits Unattended Flagstick in Hole Areas the Committee May Mark as Penalty Areas Touching or Moving Loose Impediments or Touching the Ground in a Penalty Area Expanded Use of Red-Marked Penalty Areas Elimination of Opposite Side Relief for Red Penalty Areas Moving or Touching Loose Impediments or Touching Sand in a Bunker Unplayable Ball in Bunker
  22. Yesterday on the first green I found a swarm of yellow jackets stinging (and attempting to lift) a large millipede. The more the millipede twisted around and fought back, the more yellow jackets arrived to help.. dozens of yellow jackets came swirling in one after the other, like fighter planes in an old movie. My ball was 2 feet from the cup, and the insects were swarming just on the opposite side. In other words, they were not technically in the line of my putt, but they were still swarming around me in my stance. What do the rules say about this situation? I know that on the green you do not take a drop, but rather place the ball. Where would I place the ball in this case? Am I entitled to any relief? How is this handled? For those of you who don't know what Yellow Jackets are, they are highly aggressive, meat-eating wasps that live in nests (i.e., they are not solitary wasps). When I was 16 I stepped into a nest and was stung dozens of times; later when I painted houses in college I was stung dozens of times more.. so please do not question my toughness - getting stung by these little bastards is NOT a pleasant experience. FWIW I read the rule about insect nests in the bunker, I don't think that applies on the green, because the green is not a hazard.
  23. http://www.golf.com/tour-news/2017/06/01/rules-arent-made-be-broken Quotes in red are from the article… No. 1. Video should be used in rules disputes almost never. No. 2. Magnified video should never be used at all. No. 3. The rules officials at the PGA Tour/USGA/LPGA should be ashamed of themselves for hijacking these events. No. 4. Penalties should not be assigned after players sign their scorecards. No. 5. TV viewers at home (and who are these people anyhow?) should not be permitted to influence the outcome of a golf tournament, as it is unfair to the players who get more TV time, and also because it's weird. … Here's an easy solution to the various problems outlined here: Play by the rules. Had Thompson marked her ball correctly in the first place, there would never have been an issue. Really, it's a world-gone-soft that turned Thompson into a victim here. The rule that governs marking a ball on a green could not be more straightforward: Mark, and return the ball to where it was. She didn't do that. … Like Woods, I used to think that the use of videotape, and the whole call-in thing, was strange. But 20 years ago, Davis Love III helped me understand, with impeccable logic, why it makes sense: A player should want his or her scorecard to be as accurate as possible, and more scrutiny will only help make a player achieve that goal. Love's worldview shows an elemental understanding of the game that defines his life. In other sports—in football, in basketball, in baseball, in hockey—trying to get away with something is part of the game. Golf is the complete opposite. Also, what kind of champion would you have if broadcast TV showed a winner hoisting a trophy, and YouTube showed, for example, that same golfer carrying 15 clubs? Indeed, what's so hard about playing by the rules? They're not "unfair" because everyone is subject to the same RULES. No, not everyone is subject to the exact same conditions, but that's never been the case, and attempting to do that is a foolhardy endeavor that will always fail. But everyone can - and should - play under the same RULES of the game. "My side" of the debate is often characterized as saying "the rules are the rules, period, end of story," but that can be said in two different ways. Did Lexi deserve a penalty? Absolutely, per the rules, she did. The Rules don't leave leeway to say "well, but it probably didn't really help her, maybe, so can't we just this one time not penalize her…?" They're written and applied, and that's the way it must be for the rules as they are. That statement does not mean that everyone (or that I) support every rule written and back it 100%. There are a few rules with which I have some quibbles, though understanding where the rules come from and the underlying principles tends to minimize anyone's beef with too many of the Rules.
  24. Rule 7-1b prohibits a competitor from practicing on a "competition course" prior to a round or play-off of a stroke play event. Great, and I have no problems with this -- if I'm a later tee time, it isn't fair that I might be able to get to the course at the same time as someone in the first group, wander over to the 18th green during his or her round, and see how that bunker that fronts the green is playing today. I keep the rules book italics above because competitor and course are definitions in the Rules. In fact, rule 33-2 tells the committee to define accurately the course. That's also great and I have no problems here either. If the golf complex we're playing has one eighteen-hole course, the interaction is fairly straight-forward: get there and you may use the range and other designated practice areas. There's probably limited benefit (at most) to four hours on the range before a round compared to a normal warm-up range session, so the early tee times aren't disadvantaged here. But when they have multiple courses in the complex, this is less clear to me. My home course (18 holes, regulation) shares a parking lot and a name with a nine-hole par-3 course that measures under 1000 yards. Is this a decision for the committee to make, whether competitors may play the par-3 course prior to their round? My reading of this says that the committee should define (under rule 33-2) the course, so they could prohibit it. Alternately, since we aren't using those holes, would they not be part of the course? Or because they're in the complex, are they always? That ends the question I'm actually worried about in the short-term. I love my club (and I haven't asked my club committee what the rules on this are -- this isn't the result of a dispute or anything), but I live a bit further away than I used to. Time was I could easily plan my day to get there an hour before my tee time. Now with traffic, if I have a later tee time, I'm more likely to get there 3 hours early to avoid risking a traffic delay that could cost me warm up time or even my spot. And it makes me wonder what I'm going to do with the difference. Thinking about this has caused me to come up with two other related questions though. There's another complex near me that has two 18-hole regulation courses. If we had a tournament there, how would the other course be treated? If I had a noon tee time at course A, would I be within the rules to make a 6am tee time at course B and play it day-of? What if that complex, rather than using an established 18 hole course, finds a route around the complex using eighteen holes, some from A some from B? Would playing on one of the 18 excluded holes be permitted, even though most days they'd be part of the same course as some of what I'd be playing? My instinct is that this has the same answer as the previous question, but I'm not sure what that is. Thanks in advance for any help on these interactions. Finding help for this on Google was surprisingly tough (or perhaps I'm just not good at it) -- I mostly found standard explanations of the main rule. The Tufts book explained why the rule exists, but that didn't help me figure out what the ruling should be.
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