Three simple words – Stack and Tilt – have done about as much to turn the world of golf instruction upside down as anything in recent memory.
It’s the move that led the U.S. Open through three rounds this year. It’s the move that’s led to the resurgence of the careers of a number of pros, including former Masters champ Mike Weir. It’s a move pros have been adopting in quantity, and a move amateurs have been adopting with sometimes remarkable success.
It’s also been a few months since the Golf Digest article first hit newsstands. I postulated that a lot of the early success amateurs were experiencing was simply a result of a temporary short-circuiting of their brain and that, eventually, the old swing flaws would return. Perhaps that was a bit short-sighted…
My question for the S&T adoptees now is simply this: have your swing flaws returned? Or have you stuck with Stack and Tilt with improved ball-striking and scoring? Post in the comments below.
I scoffed at the Stack and Tilt swing (click the link above for a description) when I first saw it in print. Most of my reaction was due to the horrible “traditional swing” pictures that were displayed alongside the stack-and-tilt swings. “Only a big duffer swings like that!” I thought to myself. I also thought “if Stack and Tilt were so great, someone would have come up with it a long time ago. Tiger would probably be hitting the ball that way, and a bunch more golfers besides Aaron Baddeley would be using it.”
After all, when was the last true swing revolution? Hogan’s Five Lessons? They don’t come around every day, you know.
Without much consideration for Stack and Tilt, and as a long-time self-taught golfer, I’ve developed a slightly new swing myself this year. I used to pre-set my weight to the right, coil around my spine, and move through on the downswing. My swing worked, but it still required a good amount of timing on the lateral shift to the left in order to make solid contact.
This year, in addition to swinging a bit more upright and standing a bit closer to the ball and taller at address, I’ve given up on the idea of worrying about my weight shift at all. My swing is now fairly well centered: I simply swing the club back and up by rotating my shoulders, then back down and through, firing the hips through first. My weight shift still exists, but it feels a lot more automatic now. As the club and my body rotate back, my weight naturally moves a little that way. The opposite is true coming down, but until my arms pull my head up to the finish position, I like to feel as though my head stays relatively centered.
In thinking about it, I suppose I’ve adopted somewhat of a Stack and Tilt swing. Or perhaps I’ve adopted half of it: Stack. After all, I don’t have the dramatic inside takeaway, I don’t crush any cans, I don’t “pop up,” and I don’t feel as though I’m leaning one way or another, but I stay centered over the ball and just use rotational force to hit the ball.
I could go on for quite awhile, but I don’t want to get away from the central question: If you’ve taken on the Stack and Tilt swing, how are you doing now, a few months later? Have your old swing flaws returned? Do you have trouble hitting your driver? Are your misses less frequent, more frequent, better, or worse? How’s your distance? Is your contact better and more consistent?
Please answer in the comments below.
Photo Credit: © Golf Digest.
When I first tried it in June, it was amazing. Low zipping irons that flew about 10% further than normal. I’m a 3 handicap and play half decent normally but the improvement in ball flight was truly astounding. I didn’t have quite the same results with the driver but my driving was still very acceptable.
Gradually over time though, that instant success has begun to wane. Probably I have gotten away from some of the S&T fundamentals or even focussed too much on the wrong part of it. Given the instant success (it really was phenomenal) I really would like to stick with it. I tried contacting Bennett and Plummer Golf to see if they could tell me the name of a teacher here in Georgia but alas no response and that for me might be the kicker.
I’m sort of the the same boat… I read the article and adopted part of that method into my swing. I don’t think I do the entire Stack & Tilt but I use quite a bit of that instruction. I now realize I had a swing similar to the one I’m working on now a while back but I thought it was the “wrong” way. But I didn’t turn or bring the club inside quite like I am now though. In general, I am hitting my irons a lot better. However, there are days I hit it as good as perhaps I ever have and days I just don’t have it. But my misses are becoming a bit less frequent and I’m hitting my irons much more crisply and as a result quite a bit longer. I didn’t have the same success with this move with a driver and admittedly swing a little different now with the driver. I shift my weight with a driver and stay centered over the ball (and turn my shoulders and hips) with my irons. What I like the most with this move is when I am doing it right I am hitting my irons long with very little effort.
I think there are a lot of people, pros and amateurs who were publicly critical of this method when it first came out, or when the Golf Digest article was published and now I’m hearing these same people changing their tune a little. Now, I’m not saying these same people are on the range working on the Stack & Tilt but I think they are more open minded and less critical about it and the success it’s had on tour and with amateurs.
And as I’ve said before, even if you don’t adopt the entire method I think there is something in that instruction for everyone. Whether it’s keeping the weight centered, attacking the golf ball from the inside (taking it back inside could promote a better shoulder turn), or whatever. I think it’s worth reading.
Like most people, the “new theory” placebo effect seems to work on me with almost anything new, but I haven’t tried the S&T…
I find the theory amusing. Not saying it can’t work, but David Leadbetter was the rage only a few years ago, and he clearly tells people to shift a bit to the right–move off it, load up, etc.–and cites the hanging on the left side as a swing error. Leadbetter could be wrong, too, of course.
I found that it’s helped my driver more than the irons, but I haven’t committed fully to it. I do like the idea of keeping my head centered over the ball, helps with consistency.
The thing that really got me interested was the backswing. I had always liked taking it back inside, and my teacher(s) have always tried to get the motion more straight back. Now I feel vindicated, and more confident that my instincts had merit.
My index is also at a new low, 7.4. The more I play and watch golf the more I’m certain that there are many swings that will work, and each player has to find the one that’s best for him.
I rejected S&T from the outset because of the same things you mentioned. I even said some people will find temporary success because of the restrictive hip turn the S&T causes on the forward swing…but it would wear off.
Limiting sway in the golf swing is a good thing, but if you don’t sway then the S&T swing will start to cause some severe hooks.
It’s better to just learn how to balance properly and not some contrived way that’s just going to be a temporary resolution.
In other words, you didn’t “take on” the swing. Please do not answer based solely on what you believe to be true. I’m looking for responses from people who have tried it.
My Stack and Tilt story:
I am a 10ish index and I was having a bit of a swing “crisis” this spring. My power was gone and my ball flight was way too high. I took a video lesson and found that I was getting very “flippy” at impact. The instructor tried to change my impact position and everything went to hell. I felt like I was starting over again. Needless to say, I was not feeling good about where my summer was headed. That night I came home and found my GD in the mail, and read the S&T article…..
My next range session I have it a try (what did I have to lose?) and I found myself having some success. Impact felt completely different and I was compressing the ball much better. My misses were pretty bad (left and low) but the wild high/ballooning flight I was struggling with was gone. Now, I didn’t see great results on the course, mostly because I didn’t feel completely comfortable with it. So, I tinkered some more over the next few weeks and as I went I found that I had improved my impact position (just as the instructor had wanted me too) but I was no longer swinging like the article suggested. My swing plane, tempo, style had drifted back to normal but my impact position was vastly improved!
Long story short, I am striking the ball better than ever and my 5 lowest rounds ever have been in the last 2 weeks. Is the stack and tilt for everyone? Absolutely not! However, I think many can learn something by trying it for a couple range sessions.
As what seems to be the trend, I tried it and experienced instant positive results….which eventually gave way to disaster.
Initially, it seemed to good to be true, I hit 2 large buckets of range balls that first day and produced some of the best iron shots to ever leave my club. I didn’t want to leave the range. My trajectory was a bit lower, very penetrating ball flight with almost pinpoint accuracy. For a 16 handicapper like me, this was heaven. The game seemed easy.
To make a long story short:
This “buzz” lasted approximately 2-3 weeks…then suddenly, it disappeared. I’m not sure what happened, but one day as I arrived at the range with a huge smile on my face because of my new found success, I started hitting some of the worst golf shots possible. Shanks, and lots of them . In my 3 years playing golf I have hit some terrible shots, but never had the shanks. I started bringing the club back WAY inside, then coming over the top on the downswing….and couldn’t stop.
Over the next 2 weeks I tried frantically to regain that magic but was never able to, the best I could muster was a terrible hook. I must have re-read the article in Golf Digest 10 times. As the weather warmed and I started playing more golf, my scores suffered, and my back became sore. I eventually dropped the whole idea after about one month.
I can’t figure out why it suddenly just bottomed out…some old habits may of crept back into the mix, I’m not sure. Fun while it lasted though.
I am no golf pro nor am I close to being one but I would have to say that the stack and tilt worked and works for me. I guess the main reason why it works so well could be because I have always had a problem of keeping my head down and it helps my game and helps my head to stay down. With the new changes I also placed the ball closer to the middle of my stance and due to this my ball striking has improved because I make better contact with the ball first. Lastly it has worked because my overall contact and acceleration towards the ball and past the ball has improved. This is how it has helped me and continues to help me. I can only speak for myself and the faults in my swing so if you have those problems and then try it out for yourself.
PS I have not been coached with the swing, I have read the magazine and seen golf digest and adapted it as close as I could understand it– I think Im doing it right but it works for me.
Erik,
As a working man who plays golf for fun, I have yet to meet anyone who has read more and tried more swing styles than I have. In three years of playing golf, I have brought my score down to mid 80’s. However, all those balls I’ve hit on the range took a toll on my back and left me with a chronic lower back stiffness and a fatalistic view that I’ll probabaly never become a single-digit player.
Enter the Stack-and Tilt (SAT)! SAT is essentially a one-plane swing, much like that of Jim Hardy’s, which I tried for several months when his article first came out on Golf Digest a couple of years ago (I studied his book like my life depended on it). Hardy’s one-plane swing gave me instant power and distance but ultimately led to less consistency and worsening back stiffness. There are two critical elements in “my” interpretation of SAT that I believe have resulted in a swing that is more reliable, more powerful, and less stressful on my back. First, unlike in Hardy’s teaching, I allow my left knee to freely turn away from the target, resulting in a greater hip turn and less torque on my lower back. If you keep your weight centered while doing this, you get the reverse pivot, which is dreaded in the conventional swings but is crucial in SAT. Second, SAT requires a true “one-piece-takeaway.” The spatial relationship between the upper body and the arms (esp. the left arm) on the coronal and sagital planes (guess my job) remain relatively constant from the set-up to the top of the swing. The only significant, intentional movement of the arms during takeaway is the pronation of the left arm to stay square to the rotating axis of your upper body. From there you just rotate the whole apparatus, pivoting on the inner edge of the left foot. That’s it. There may be more to SAT, but I am trying to make my swing simple and stupid so it will work even when I’m not feeling so hot. I get a fade, a power fade. My worst is essentially an excessive fade (slice) or a push, but generally not the “round-killing” vareity.
I have been wating for SAT to disappoint me like the rest of swing techniques that are out there. But it hasn’t. My swing is more stable. I moved up from the white to the blue tee box. And most important of all, my back does not worry me anymore (knock on wood)!
Now, I get to work on my short game. Oh, joy!
I wasnt able to see my golf instructor for several months, and my weight shift got so bad, i just stoped shifting my weight and adopted this swing before i relized i had changed to a radical new swing idea. I got back with him abd we are changing it back because although i was hitting it straighter, i lost so much distance it became impossible to compete in high school golf. Good idea, but requires to much core strength and flexibility for most people to get eneugh. I was driving maybe 250-260 with S&T, but at hs tournaments most kids drive it 285-315, making it really hard to go low.
I tried the Stack and Tilt and at first liked it. After a few weeks, I started to hit hooks and fat shots. I became too quick and found myself strangling the club. I could not consistently crush the can under my left heel which avoids the fat shot!
I then went back to my old swing and found myself more centered over the ball with an equal amount of weight on both feet. My backswing became more compact with little to no shift to the right. I am striking the ball better than ever and am finally a single digit handicap!
I praise the Stack and Tilt for showing me the sensation of hitting down on the ball with your weight on your front foot. Everyone except for you sees when you hit off of your back foot.
The S&T pushed me towards a 1 plane swing…Jim Hardy! Best swing thought ever!!!
There is no doubt in the world this swing works.
When I first read this article I saw a few things in S&T that I was doing in the past but was told were wrong by misinformed coaches. In particluar I was told not to bring the club back inside or to tilt the shoulders. Both of these things felt very natural to me but I eventually got rid of them at the behest of the pro and lost the pure feeling I had. Since trying the S&T I am again hitting pure golf shots with much better strike and flight. My irons in particular are zipping off the face on a slightly drawing trajectory. I find my distance has improved and I am much more consistent.
I sometimes have trouble with hooks with the driver, but overall my driving has improved and again I am hitting draws which lead to longer drives.
Like any swing if you think too much technically over the ball you will freeze up and hit awful shots and S&T is no different. The key is to learn the feel of S&T and not get caught up in technical thoughts.
When I get the feel right I am hitting the ball super with very little effort.
It was only during this year’s US Open that I realized what the whole stack and tilt swing was about, after they explained it during the coverage using Baddeley as an example. After seeing this, it brought me back to a few lessons that I was having with a new coach about 12 months ago that I realized he was trying to get me to use S&T. Since having these lessons I halved my handicap [from 9 to 4], and got a start in our pennants team at my local club, so it would be fair to say that the S&T swing help me…Over the past few months I have been struggling with ball striking, probably because I have moved away from the S&T fundamentals without realizing it. Since watching the Open I have been trying to get back to the fundamentals I was been taught, and things have already started improving, so although the S&T philosophy seems strange, and backward compared to the traditional swing methodologies, i think that there is definitely benefits to using adopting it…
I heard about S&T before the article came out mainly because I believe Mike Weir is a disciple.
Jotted notes from the magazine article and went to the range to try it out. My course has a stall that has a large mirror and that helped me copy what I was seeing in the article.
First feedback was exciting as my irons were hit solidly with more distance and right on target.
Second trip to a different range that had grass tees proved equally gratifying and I was starting to believe.
Men’s Night was to be the next test and that was where the good stuff stopped. A tough start proved too much for me to handle and I caved and tried to salvage my round with some kind of hybrid swing. It is a swing that I am still using with increasing success.
I believe what has happened is that in adding a new swing thought to include a shoulder shoulder turn (or stack)
and then go to hips and a transfer to the left seems to work real well right now.
As for the Stack and Tilt, it is tough to change old habits and without someone to advise on a constant basis and without video to acknowledge changes it is only reasonable to expect us hackers to look for another sort of instant gratification.
I applaud those who have stuck with it, made the adjustments needed and are playing well. Swing of the future….mmm ??
One other thing I should have mentioned. Maybe I’m not employing S&T properly, but I have found that since changing my swing to S&T my back has improved. I have never had any real back issues until late last year when I was starting to get tight and sore at the end of a round and found that after two rounds back to back I would be very stiff and sore for a couple of days. Since using the S&T I have had no stiffness in the back whatsoever. Admittedly I have just become a dad and can only get out once a week at most, but I honestly believe S&T is better for my back, in spite of what you might think from looking at the pictures of the swing with the reverse C finish. I think it might have something to do S&T’s compactness and lack of lateral movement.
I’ve been doing stack and tilt since the article has come out and overall its been positive. I never slice, and have remeber to weaken my grip when I swing to avoid a hook, but when I do that, I get more distance on my irons and my drives. My fairway woods still need some fine tuning.
One thing to be careful of, if you don’t crush the can, the amount torque created in the swing can easilty bring pain to your lower back, or possibly hurt your knee….(but that can happen in a traditional swing anyway.
I have been working on the S & T for about a month now and its starting to get automatic. My fat shots, which plagued me at first w/ s&t, have greatly been reduced and my ball flight is much better.
I find that many of the principles of the s&t are things I did in the past when I was a better player. In HS and college I had a very compact swing, as coaches would always try to get me to get a bigger backs swing. Taking the club back on a slight inside path was another. I’m not sure I’m employing a true s&t but by not allowing my weight to slide back makes me really hit down on the ball.
I was a chronic flipper the last few years. I would get a sore red spot on my fore arm from the butt of the club hitting me after a large bucket of balls. The last few range sessions I have done have resulted in no repeat of the sore spot. That tells me right there that I’m not flipping which is a big win for me.
As far as the driver I center my self at the club head and try to keep my weight centered, good shoulder turn and a more compact swing. When I in a groove I find I’m getting at great ball flight with the shot giving me a nice roll out. Gone is my balloon drives that fall straight out of the sky.
I think the s&t is a simpler swing for me and I hope that keeps me from having bad habits creep into it.
Long time reader, first time poster, but the S&T topic proved too much to resist. As a range rat, frequent looper, and swing geek, I just had to dabble with the S&T when the GD article came out. As it turns out, some of what it teaches were similar to the one-plane swing I have been working on with my pro for the last couple of years, which I guess isn’t really surprising since, to paraphrase someone famous, the ball doesn’t know what swing theory you are using, it just knows club path, angle of attack, and face position, and there aren’t too many different ways for those elements to work.
I’ll leave G.O.L.F. and the Golfing Machine out of this (since I can’t understand the countless combinations of levers and angles they identify), but most other swing theories seem to me to be about creating feelings, sensations, or images in the golfer’s head that aren’t necessarily meant to be taken literally but are intended either to reinforce good habits or, more importantly, get us away from bad ones. In other words, the theories tend to overemphasize their core principles to achieve something not quite as extreme in the actual swing — the difference between “feel and real.”
Keeping yourself more centered over the ball throughout the swing, making the swing more rotational, squaring the club as much with your body as you can, and having the club travel on a similar back and through arc (assuming you have sufficient flexibility and strength to do so) are really “universal fundamentals” that obviously lead to more consistent ball striking.
I’m not sold on the idea of transferring more/most of your weight to your left side on the backswing. If you saw the same super slow motion shots of Baddeley during the US Open, what I saw was a fairly even distribution of weight at address remaining pretty constant throughout the backswing, with an increasing shift to the left side through impact. I would agree that loading up all your weight behind the ball on your right side is it’s own kind of problem (because for most of us it usually means that we’ve swayed back to the outside of our right foot), but I’m not convinced that the solution is 90% of your weight on your left side. I think that as to be more of an “image” intended to keep the weight more balanced on the backswing, limit excessive lower body movement, and tighten the coil between the upper and lower body.
But here is where I see a problem with taking the S&T to its literal extreme. It works great when you have no tension and you can turn your upper body aggressively (i.e., on the range), but I’ve found it has very little margin for error when you don’t (i.e., on the course). Even the slightest shift to the left or holding back of the upper body (which are common occurrences on the course) gets you seriously stuck, which leads to a god awful shot, then more tension, then a less aggressive swing, and so on. I found myself swing (particularly off the tee getting worse as the round went on), and I also found it hard (nigh impossible) to hit that safe 80% drive when your one up on 18 and just need to get the ball in play. Also, I found it harder to hit the little cut with this swing, perhaps for similar reasons.
By contrast, I’ve found that allowing (but not forcing) myself just a little bit of a shift to the right on the backswing gives me a little more margin for error when you’re nervous or not swinging 100% for some reason. I’ve also rediscovered that reliable little cut off the tee.
So my experience would tell me that, to the extent the S&T has forced me to be more conscious of limiting excessive lower body movement to the right on the backswing — what I referred to above as the difference between started fairly balanced but allowing some weight shift to the right versus trying to force a weight shift to the right — it has improved my ball striking with all clubs. However, I’ve found the “pure” S&T just too difficult to take to the course, which causes me to question whether it is really the swing for everyone (or even most of us) out there. And, by the way, other than Baddeley, you can’t really say that the other pros who have moved to the S&T have noticably improved their play.
This is Erik’s article, but reading the comments, it seems to me that two themes emerge:
1. It’s not really anything new under the sun…more like a slightly different refrain of the same old song.
2. If you try it, you’ll probably see some change for the better, but as for how much, and how lasting, it’s anybody’s guess.
I never saw this article, but after reading, I realize that I’ve had something similar to this swing all my golf career. I took lessons at firestone almost 10 years ago, could it be they were teaching this way back then? Either way, this perfectly explains why everyone tells me I have a compact, very steep swing. I use almost no weight transfer, so when I get the ball out 265 off the tee im using hip torque, upper body and club tech to get it out there.
I agree with Bobby D. S&T brought me closer to a one plane swing. After reading the Golf Digest article about a hundred times and researching online (including YouTube swings), I tried it on the range and a couple of rounds. Did wonders for my short and mid irons (I dropped the 4), struggled with my 3 hybrid, woods and driver.
Frustration lead me to take a lesson which totally screwed me up (too much of an inside move, you’re getting stuck behind, start down the line, yada yada yada yada)…(Another aside, why is it when you ask a golf pro for help with your woods and driver, they immediate take your 6 iron out and re-work your whole swing?)
Anyway, I went back to Jim Hardy’s Plane Truth DVDs and discovered elements of S&T in the one plane swing. I was firmly an inconsistent two planers, worked to make the transition to a flatter swing, and here I am today. I noticed the Jim said Hogan employed a slight forward tilt at times and he was cool with it.
I’m much more consistent now, actually calling shots. Currently an 18, dropping fast. I noticed I’ve kept some of the S&T aspects to help my game now; shorter back swing, slight tilt during backswing (55% of weight on the front foot, 45% on the back), straight back leg.) When I want to really hit down on the ball, I lean hard on my front foot.
I won’t over think it, seems to work for me. The one thing I won’t forget from the S&T is that feeling of compressing the ball for the first time.
I convinced it’s a legitimate technique. We all have aspects of OPS, 2PS, and S&T in our swings. Take what works, leave what don’t, get on with your life and play golf.
I thought it was time to express my appreciation to Plummer and Bennett for giving us the Stack and Tilt swing. It has greatly improved my game in the last couple of months. I am a 60 year old golfer, golfing for about 6 years stuck in the high 90s. I have read many many books, watched DVDs and taken a few lessons in pursuit of the modern golf swing. From the minute I read the first Golf Digest article in June I thought this was the swing for me. My history is that I constantly fight a slice and was inconsistent off the fairway with irons and woods (fats and tops). I had resorted to a flat, connected very rotational swing with a very strong grip to straighten things out. However no matter how hard I have tried, I have had major problems shifting my weight from right to left leaving me hitting weak balloon balls off my back foot with a tendency to leak to the right.
Stack and Tilt seemed to be the answer — just start with more weight on the left side and keep sending more left. I was already doing most of the rest ie. biceps glued to rib cage and rotational swing. I just needed to get stacked and stay stacked with a bit of left tilt.
My first day at the range was unbelievable. I was finally hitting down on the ball with my weight forward. I immediately achieved a lower more piercing ball flight and gained about 10 yards with each club. In addition I could grip the club with a very neutral grip instead of my old super strong grip. I am overjoyed with this swing. I have continued to practice and play with improved results. In two months with stack and tilt I am now scoring in the high 80s which is a drop of 10 strokes. This is great for me.
I have pretty much done just as the article said for irons and my hybrid club and modified it just a bit for woods and driver. For driver I tee it up off my left heel, a bit lower than before, then my swing thought is to keep my arms and hands low and close to my body and just try to keep my head in place right over the ball. (not as much shoulder tilt to the left as with the irons just full shoulder turn with head over ball and increasing weight to the left side)
Finally a thank you to all the contributors in this column for the tips especially with the driver. These columns are really the major source of information on this swing.
I am a golf pro in Australia who is 32 years old and my weakness has always been my ballstriking. I stayed faithful to my teacher for many years trying to get my weight onto my right side, turning down onto my right knee, and then turn violently through the ball. Restrict the hip turn, feel tight and wide at the top. Man, I felt like I was doing everything except swing the golf club. It just felt tight, uncomfortable and I was hitting it shorter and worse than ever. However, I kept telling myself that this teacher knew what he was on about, I had to keep stretching so I could get into the positions etc.
I started the Stack & Tilt once I saw it on the web. Being an Aaron Baddeley fan, it was a no brainer to try it. And since my ball striking was so poor, I had nothing to lose. I experienced a lot of success with it straight away but not with every shot. Then I started hitting it awesome on the range and not on the course, and now slowly it is there for me on the course as well. Even when I have a bad day I know that this way to swing the club is the way for me. When I am on, the strike is absolutely pure and super accurate. I have played a few rounds over the last month where some of my ballstriking has been phenomenal. The pro I did my traineeship under, said once that you know you are hitting the ball good when you impress yourself with your own strike and ballflight. This is what is happening.
Interestingly, I have always been very much a golfing traditionalist. I have always putted in the style of Ben Crenshaw, short game in the vogue of Seve, and these parts of my game have always been outstanding. I have a tape of Ben Hogan which I watched with some friends a couple of years ago, and we were all saying how he looked like he reverse pivoted. Of course he just stayed on the ball. And Johnny Miller whose ballstriking was always staggering at time, seemed to me to dip into the ball with a steep shoulder turn and big hip turn as well.
I also remembered how about 7 years ago I was hitting the ball great, and what I was noticing was I felt like I was lifting up and to the right of the ball through impact. I hit the ball great but convinced myself that doing so was wrong because that isn’t what the modern guys do.
At the US Open this year I noticed that even Tiger doen’t move off the ball anymore. He did when he was with Butch, but not now with Hank.
This “Stack and Tilt” thing has cleared up a lot of things for me. It works for me, and I feel now that I have a second wind for my career as a tour pro. Where I was thinking I was a 32 year old guy, I now feel 10 years younger ready to go out there and flush it.
Reading all of these comments got me thinking&hellilp; I went over some of my old instruction notes I’ve taken through the years (yes, I’m that obsessive about golf), as well as some of my instruction books.
One theme that came up in my earliest live instruction was that the pro thought my pivot move was out of sync. I either shifted the weight too much, ending up swaying off the ball, or reverse-pivoted. I remembered him saying something like “you can have a no-weight-shift swing, that’s ok…Hubert Green does. But whatever you do, you have to get weight on your left foot through impact to be able to catch the ball crisp.”
So I went out to my course last night and tried keeping my head much more still, and keeping the pivot a bit more quiet. At first it felt like a reverse pivot, but as I did it more what I realized was that rather than my weight shifting to the ball of my right foot about 80% going back – as I had been doing most of this season – the weight was remaining centered in the middle of my body, but shifting from the balls of both feet at address to the left toe/right heel combination at the top.
It took a while to be able to make a confident swipe this way, but the results were as remarkable as everyone talks about. I picked up a club’s length of distance that I’d lost in recent weeks, and was definitely hitting the ball more cleanly.
Fairway woods off the deck are a good indicator of how you’re striking it, and I tried a few. My favorite was on one of our par 5s. I’ve reached it once this year, in the spring with hard fairways. Last night the course was wet from the rain and I carried a 3 wood 220 off the fairway to hit the green in two, and two putted for birdie.
I wasn’t thinking “stack and tilt,” since I wasn’t trying to take the club inside, or straighten my leg, or arch my back, or crush a can, or whatever. Just modified my pivot to keep my weight where it was established at address, and the results were good.
I think the nut of Stack and Tilt is just that – keeping your weight from wandering off line.
Keeping a “steady head” was once dogma in golf teaching, and I wonder if, like all golf lessons, it was overdone by a generation of recreational players. This lead to a common problem of true reverse-pivoting, and prompted a new generation of teachers telling us to go ahead and let the head move right a little, “move off it,” “load up,” etc. Now, this is being over done, and “stack and tilt” is moving us back to a greater emphasis on keeping the pivot anchored a bit more.
When you think about how us hackers search out and are inundated with golf swing analysis. It is obvious that 9 out of 10 of those analyses are with a pro golfer using the driver. We hardly ever see a side by side comparison of let’s say Tiger’s tee shot or long shot swing and his 6 iron swing. Now as we hackers try to emulate that over analyzed driver swing which when performed properly actually strikes on a slightly ascending blow and therefore bottoms out just slightly behind the ball. Now, use that swing in a less than perfect lie with a 5 iron in your hands and then wonder why you tend to hit fat or toe dug pulls and/or hooks. Anyway, I am convinced that if we did see more mid and short iron analysis, it would be obvious that many pros use a modified swing to pinch their irons. I do recall often watching the pros in tournaments, Retief Gooosen, Cory Pavin comes to mind, and thinking how much they look like they are leaning on their left foot in their backswing on par 3 or iron shots. I am a 10 handicapper and have a conventional swing, loading into the right side and struggle with pulls, hooks, and fat shots with the mid and short irons. It never made sense why I hit my driver and fairway woods and long irons consistently clean but tend to overcook the irons until now. For my “conventional swing†the shallower approach of the club is great for the driver and long shots, but tends to cause toe digs or closed club face, or a combination of both on shorter clubs. I tried the S&T with a small bucket and 7 and 5 irons and did not hit one fat shot. In fact to my amazement I actually pushed a few dead right. Amazing because I generally have to aim right to pull and draw an iron to the target. I am going to keep my long shot swing for the long shots and work on the S&T for short and mid irons. I really don’t see any problem using both swings. I always used a form of S&T with pitches, wedge approach shots anyway. It just never dawned on me to use it for 5,6,7 irons. With a few more practice buckets I am hoping to get down to single digit handicap yet this year.
I’m using it and am hitting the ball really well. Some of the folks have said that they are shanking a few shots. That’s bacause for the first time they are probably approaching the ball from the inside. My impact position has moved from the middle to toe (almost all amateurs live out there), to middle to hosel. It’s a powerful hit, but if you get sloppy in your stance or ball position, you can hit those. It’s the better players miss. Enjoy them, your hitting the ball better. Finally, I would love to actually get some lessons from someone so I know if I’m even in some of the positons. HDCP is 3, but I’m looking to go lower. I think this is the swing to do it with.
I’ve been using the S&T for a couple of months now. I dont get much time to practice but try and play 9 holes every Sat. Morning. I’ve played since I was 12 or so and have been as low as a 4 (was a 7 or so most of the time). When I got older (almost 50) and couldnt play alot my scoring suffered.
The S&T is tremendous in that it greatly simplifies the golf swing and creates a much more repeatable action. If we go along the Jim hardy line then its possible that it benifits one plane golfers and hampers those who intuitivly two plane swingers. Where its made the biggest difference for me is in the scoring clubs. anything from a 7 iron in (about 172 yds for me) is almost always inside 30 ft…this is a marked improvement. I havent missed a green in 2 months inside 170 except for hitting a few over the green. My short game still suffers from lack of practice/play but my ball striking is much improved.
To me the single biggest key is focusing on the right shoulder/hip turning back up and “over” the left. If your shoulder turn isnt steep enough your not really getting either stacked or tilted…. After that focus is on the little “forward lean” you see in the article at the top. That sets up the “reverse” tilt of the spine as you drive the hips forward.
I’m still amazed at how consistant the ball strking is. On par threes I use a little stub tee and my divot starts an inch in front of the tee…literally I’m driving down thru the ball and either leaving the tee of litterally hitting the top of it and driving it into the ground.
Whats funny is I grew up playing the S&T at 12-14. My dads favorite golfer was Sam Snead and he had a very Snead like swing. So I grew up playing very much over the ball (and was a 4 by 14) then as the “new swing” took over I went to the two plane swing. The moment I swung the S&T the light went on…1st S&T swing I took I hit the 175 sign at local range on the fly with a 7 iron….
Do I still hit bad shot sure…all the time. But the “bad” swings are 300% better and the good swings are lasers. Before if I drove the ball well I’d miss 1/2 the greens or more with the scoring clubs. I felt like I needed to get to wedge distance. Now I’m converting almost all my good drives to G.I.R. and when I hit a poor drive its less of an issue…and I’m converting more of those back to pars since I can just punch out and hit a wedge to close range….
I am on Day 2 of implementing Stack and Tilt as my new swing. I was hesitant early in the season when Golf Digest published their article about it, but when article 2 of Golf Digest appeared I decided to give it a full fledged try. I am a dedicated practicer and have gone through many swing changes before. My previous swing was built from a Leadbetter student and when it’s working I can hit the ball with phenomenal power and accuracy. There inlies my problem, my swing would betray me far too often. Maybe it was me, who knows but I am a frustrated 10 handicapper and feel that my enjoyment of the game is in severe jeopardy due to errant tee shots. Honestly, my driver and long clubs never became reliable even when I practised tons. I feel like putting this in a blog about Stack and Tilt but this will do fine.
Day 1 of Stack and Tilt – Decided to actually commit to the swing through thick and thin. I have given myself to the end of 2008 season to make it work
Day 2 – Hit a range basket over lunch. Honestly, this swing is the real deal as far as I’m concerned. I can understand guys not liking it but from a repeatability and simplistic point of view this swing is excellent. I hit a couple rough shots but nothing I haven’t seen before with my other swing. Basically the shots when struck well are just as good if not better than with my conventional swing. My misses were fades to power fades but I feel like it was lack of execution on the hip release. The good shots are powerful tight draws that travel a long way. I’ve always hit the ball high so the trajectory lower for me is more like I see on many other players. This swing feels so far inside on the back but I just commit and look at the divot after and arguing with mechanics seems pretty pointless. The divots are perfect and as a person who struggled with sliding my hips I feel like I could unwind them as fast and vigorously as I want to using Stack and Tilt, in fact I think it’s encouraged by what I’ve seen. I don’t practice/play everyday being a family man and working so my swing needs to be repeatable with layoffs in between. Stack and Tilt feels very natural to me and the positions are pretty easy to get to. Did I hit a bad shot or two? Sure, but no more than my conventional swing after 3 years of trying and with some work I can imagine the misses will go down just as they did when I made changes to my conventional swing.
One other thing that amazes me about this swing is how easy it is to implement even without instruction, I’m sure with instuction I’d execute it even better but I’m not complaining with the execution to this point that’s for sure.
Honestly I think that lots of people don’t want the swing to work otherwise it would mean what they’ve been doing for x number of years might be called into question. I just finished watching a match play round between the #1 Canadian Amateur seed and the #64 Canadian Amateur seed and 5 holes into sudden death it was abundantly clear that two very different swings can create good results. The underdog had a consistent one plane swing and the #1 seed has a conventional 2 plane swing. Both guys are good but repeatability is the key. Oh and putting. 🙂 The #1 seed player did win the match, and he was a better ball striker but it wasn’t the runaway people thought it would be.
Anyway, I’ll update my success or failures on the swing as I’m not shy about either.
I’m a sucker for new swing methods so I tried the S&T for a short time after this article came out but abandoned it a few weeks later.
I’ve always had big sway off the ball problem in my back swing and the S&T did train me how to stay centered in my stance more. I ended up going to a more basic half swing after I got used the quiet lower body with no sway. I guess the S&T acted as a training exercise for me so for that I’m grateful.
i didn’t make a full conversion to S&T since I already had a very front-heavy swing, but i have seen several of my playing partners improve dramatically.
I think the biggest advantage of this swing is that it promotes good balance. Guys who i have seen who are alway off-balance finish their swings balance. As a result, contact is more consistant and much straighter. As a result, instead of worry about weight shift, they just worry about firing down the target line.
😛
I tried the S&T right after the first article came out. My ball striking improved immediately. I now consistently hit all my clubs straighter, and more consistently. Everything about my swing feels more dependable. The way I described it to a friend is that now all I have to do is let the club come down to the ball. I have become so consistent that I have had to move the ball about an inch closer to the hosel of the club (almost dead center) at address because my swing has become so true.
I am a true believer in the swing. I got a bit away from it for a few rounds and my ball striking and scoring were just awful. I reread the article and went back to what I was doing. It is a 10 stroke difference for me. I am a 20 handicap.
I recommend it to anyone who doesn’t have a swing in which they are confident.
Ive been swinging this way for three years and playing great in events. People said for the last two, are you doing that one plane thing? Nope, Morad stuff. Now its out in the open.
I’ve been doing S&T now seriously for about 1 week and honestly this swing is a solid movement, way more repeatable than my previous swing, which was a conventional 2 plane weight shift swing.
With S&T I am my misses are sometimes surprisingly good. I tried this swing earlier in the season with a half hearted attempt but was talked out of it for various non fact based reasons. I am fully committed to S&T and that mindset has helped me be successful with it right away. I don’t feel like I’m ready to revert back to conventional when I hit a bad shot. I’m not a tour player by any means but when my conventional swing was working it worked fantastic but it would come and go like the wind, classic inconsistency. This swing seems so much easier for me to repeat sometimes I surprise myself with the results. Distance hasn’t been compromised at all with this swing, which was a concern and when I hit it purely I’m confident my distance has increased slightly with S&T. I was always fairly proficient distance wise with my old swing but direction was the problem when timing wasn’t on like a Swiss Watch. I am feeling that S&T will be a repeatable move even after some layoffs based on how easy it was for me to adopt to begin with. I also feel like there is nothing to lose by trying this swing as it’s not so weird that if you REALLY wanted to go back after trying it for awhile you could, its’ not that radical in my mind.
With how inside the takeaway feels and where the hands get on the backswing I look down at how square and solid my divots are and you really can’t argue with the results. Anybody that doesn’t like the look of it is obviously just basing that opinion on comparison to what is now conventional swing theory, not actual experience with S&T.
If you aren’t happy with your consistency I say this swing is worth a try, nothing to lose in fact you may just be surprised at how straight you hit it. Once you get over the fact that you have wasted so many rounds struggling with a weight shift swing you’ll no doubt love Stack and Tilt.
Oh and the hip move to me feels like a sinful pleasure as it’s almost exactly what you’re not supposed to do in a conventional swing but in S&T it’s required.
I think this might be what I have been searching for. The initial results have been amazing.
For those of us that want to hit the ball hard and relish a long hit ball this takes the weight shift out of the equation.
For me, trying to co-ordinate the weight shift was a task that I could not master given the time that I had to practice.
I hit the ball much more solidly with less to think about.
It is pretty basic really. I started the season as a 6.6 index, didn’t sniff breaking 80 from March through June, was a human ATM in our nassaus, and shot 94 (my high round in 8 years) in a club championship qualifying round, driving my index up to 8.9 at the end of June. Around that time, I read the initial GolfDigest article and took it to the range. The range results were instantaneous (took about 3 weeks for it to “stick” on the course, playing 2x per week, hitting balls 2x per week), and I haven’t looked back since. 2 weeks ago, I had a few hiccups, and got back to basics (hands inside, no head movement, straighten the right leg, etc.), which was the fix. My last 6 rounds have been 73, 75, 76, 77, 76, 78 and my index is down to 4.7, trending lower. No back pain, no knee pain, and if this is still the honeymoon period, then it’s been a great one.
Hal
P.S. – Stan Utley’s short-game and putting books should be sub-titled “Stack and Tilt for the Short Game” and have also contributed greatly to the improvement.
I have tried S&T on the range and found it works really well.My problem has always been too much lateral movement and hitting the ball thin with no decending blow.I find that I can hit down on the ball much better, take a nice divot and hear the ball ‘fizz’ as it leaves the clubhead.
Results on the course have not been as good but will take time.
I will stick at it.
Hi. Am quite an old guy (67) and a really”bad” golfer. Moreover I don’t like and don’t do competition or tournament. For me golf is like Mark Twain was used to say: a nice walk slightly annoyed by the presence of a ball… I like stroll, talk, smoke, smile and, yes, play also. Got the point?
I first played at 53, 14 years ago, and never been able to do better than handicap 28.
I got several lessons for years, then stopped and went on self-taught. Golf was a mistery to me, even though I am an engineer.
It happened to me to see the Golf Digest article on Internet early July: being so bad I thought that Stack and Tile was worthwile to try. Impossible to worsen my game, I guessed!
So I studied it a whole night on the paper, then tried it at the course the following morning.
Guys! After only ONE bucket of balls I began doing something completely new for me. Good irons, straights strokes, and even not bed woods, including the Drive.
Now, after one month, I won several friendly contests at my club and have decided to try, early Sptember, a serious tournament. My average tour is improved by 8 to 10 strokes, and , curiously, my pitching and putting also.
Not satisfied, I searched other references on Internet and found that probably the famous Mike Austin (515 yards at 64!) was precisely playing that way.
Only (hope temporary) disadvantage: my left arm has started to ache near the elbow after the first nine holes.
Thank you for attention.
Good greetings from Italy!
Riccardo
I just started using Stack anf Tilt. I was able to go to the range yesterday and was a bit skeptical at first. After hitting a few balls, I must say that the sensation of not shifting your weight to the back foot was a bit ackward. But after 10 or 15 balls the new technique started feeling okay. Let me tell you, the difference was noticeable. I was flying my irons around 5 yards longer than what I usually carry them. I tried the swing with all the clubs in my bag. With the exception of the driver (still have to work on it), the balls were flying with a penetrating trajectory. I must mention that you absolutely have to make sure to release your hips through impact, if not your swing will be steep and you’ll take a huge divot before you hit the ball. It’s working for me so I’m saying that it’s a keeper. I have to take it to the course, but yesterday’s session left me impressed. I’ve always been a fan of things which break molds and are untraditional. Just because everyone subscribes to a particular method, doesn’t mean that something which is different is wrong. Long live Stack and Tilt!
I was very interested in what Badds was doing with his golf swing because it just looked so solid and sweet! So I jumped headfirst into the stack and tilt method when it was first published.
I am a former mini tour pro and have always been a great driver of the ball but my iron play always was lacking the consistency I knew I needed to compete at the higher levels. Now I smack the back of the ball and take sweet divots most of the time! Ball flight is very predictable and the sound is sweet. Real compression is what it is. The fat and thin are virtually eliminated. After a couple of weeks of really drilling on the S&T I took it to the course and I have been having some amazing ball striking rounds. At first it was a bit dodgy with the driver and fairway woods, couldn’t seem to hit it high enough but with some more practice(mostly done indoors) I have been driving it DEAD STRAIGHT! Seriously folks I believe this to be the real deal as I have tried many things and have received instruction from a number of top 100 teachers.
If I had been using this method earlier I am quite sure I would still be competing today. I believe this to be a true innovation and a fairly maintenance free way to enjoy golf for the rest of your life! If anyone has contact information on how to get in touch with the Bennet/Plummer camp I would certainly appreciate it. I hope this helps you who are considering trying this method out or are questioning whether to stick it out.
Now somebody just let me know when the stack and tilt for putting comes out! 😉
Thanks for this posting site! So many of the posted comments are just what I have experienced since trying it since May – I am a 6 index and my biggest problem was too much of a weight shift. I already have a natural inside path swing. On days when my timing was on, no prob, but on bad timing days, look out – lots of pushes and, less so, hooks. I believe my swing is the perfect candidate for the SAT. Using its features, especially with the irons, really keeps me centered on the ball. The driver, as many have commented, is a little trickier, but so long as I keep the swing smooth, it works fine, and even the mishits aren’t so bad. I have not been able to play as often as I would like, and with the SAT, the reduced weight shift takes the pressure off trying to get my timing just right. Thanks to the post about checking out Stan Utley for using SAT features on the short game. And as for putting, “SAT”-like ideas have been around for a long time – keep your weight primarily on the left side throughout the putting stroke!
Played another round on the weekend using Stack and Tilt. The comfort on the course is really starting to come around. I am hitting my driver and 3 wood as solidly as I’ve ever hit a golf ball. I’m hitting my driver over 300 yards using this swing and the ball is going straight or with a tight draw. I’ve hit a couple hooks and a few pushes but nothing that put me out of play, just in the rough.
Although I don’t want to, I must admit a few issues. I’ve had a little trouble figuring out sand shots with S&T but it’s mainly a comfort issue and lack of practice. The other thing is I’ve noticed some left forearm soreness the next day when I rotate my hand clockwise to full rotation with my arm hanging my my side. I cannot figure out what is causing it, I was thinking it was my excercises but my round on Sunday locked it in as something with the golf swing. It doesn’t cause any pain or discomfort at all anywhere in my swing and it only feels sore 12 hours later or when I wake up the next morning.
Is this just my forearm muscles getting worked in a way they haven’t in the past or has anybody else experienced this issue? It’s possible I’m doing something incorrectly, but the results I’m getting from ball flight make me think I’m pretty close with S&T.
After experimenting with stack and tilt for a week,I can only say the results have been very good…finally I can take the club back inside (where it;s always felt comfortable to me !!) and make a confident downswing and follow through not having to worry about proper weigh 😆 t transfer..and the occasional dreaded S—– !!
Haven’t taken it to the course yet,but so far I cannot believe how much farther I’m hitting the irons,with seemingly less effort !!! The driver is next in line for the range..I’m anxious to see the results and will share them with you once the verdict is in…but so far I’m sold on S&T….. 😆
As I’ve aged, somewhat ungracefully, I’ve found myself suffering from a terrible sway. I just took up golf about 10 years ago and despite lessons and practice I never shot below 90.
I had reached the point of having to keep my lower body almost completely still, no forward knee motion at all and very little hip movement in order to hit the ball cleanly. I decided to switch to a flatter swing which was starting to help this spring. Then along came the S&T, I started about 6 weeks ago, since then have shot as low as 84 and now plan on shooting below 90 every time I go out. This works, I find I don’t really have to push down with my front foot as much as some make out, even for an old non-athletic fart you get much crisper shots. The only clubs I haven’t seen much difference with is my fairway woods, yesterday I hit 14 fairways, and three of the four par 4’s. My ball flight, which was previously low and weak, is now medium high and with a slight draw 90% of the time. Distance is also improving every week as I get used to the swing and gain confidence in it.
Like Erik in the article at the top, I Stack, but I don’t tilt. The difference in my ball-striking with the irons and hybrids has been amazing. I simply shift my weight a little bit forward in the setup, before taking the club back. There is still some slight weight shift toward the back, but not enough to leave me stuck there, which is what always happened before. The result: better contact and more distance with less effort. Consistently. I’m a high handicapper, and I tried this on my own, without even having read about the Stack & Tilt swing. I was just tired of erratic shots, and tired of trying to remember a dozen different swing details.
I knew from looking at videos that my weight wasn’t coming forward until way too late, but I couldn’t figure out what to do about it. I finally decided that I should start out with it forward and forget about trying to shift it. I didn’t even try it at the practice range first. I just started playing this way. The first time out I scored a new Personal Best–and that’s with a lot of very bad drives. It took me a while to figure out that this wasn’t working for me with the driver or other woods. On reflection, the reason is simple enough. The Stack facilitates a downward contact on the ball, which is ideal for the irons and hybrids, but not the woods. With the woods I simply attempt to stay centered over the ball, and that works much better.
Again I have to emphasize that if you Stack but don’t tilt, when you take the club back there has to be some shift of the center of gravity toward the rear; it’s impossible for there not to be. But the Stack minimizes it, making it so much easier to turn the hip into the swing and contact the ball in the center, instead of toward the toe.
I find this method to be by far less of a strain on my body (I’m 54), for the simple reason that I don’t swing as hard. I don’t have to.
Stack and Tilt has changed my golf game. Started 3 months ago at a 5.6 hdcp and have dropped to a 2.8 and will be dropping again next month. Played a string of 45 holes under par playing in a tourney.
My short irons are automatic, my 3 wood is incredible. I’m still working on my mid to long irons. They are a bit inconsistent. My Driver was always strong and remains strong but feel like I have lost about 5 yrds of the tee. Still….I just amazed by the results. I’m still tweaking it a bit, but I can tell you, my only swing thought is 60% weight on the front foot and I fire thru. You gotta stick with this and keep tweaking. My body cannot move like Baddeley’s and cannot twist like him so I will never get pro distance, but I can fire bullets at the pin. I just wish someone could help me putt.
Continuing to have success with Stack and Tilt. My driver and 3 wood have never been more accurate. I find it interesting TM talks about not tilting, I find that when I don’t tilt is when I start to have issues with the swing. My experience has shown me that I need to trust the tilt and all parts of the swing. I also agree that the left leg action doesn’t need to be performed as aggresively as described in the instruction articles. It doesn’t hurt to do it aggressively but not required. I think that is clear with Baddeley’s swing.
I still have some inconsistency with my 3 iron and 4 iron on the course, I can make them work but I haven’t got them as consistent as I like.
I’ve been working on the S & T for the past few weeks. Best iron shots ever. I’ve fought through some of the same problems that some of you have mentioned, i.e. playing well at first with this swing and then having everything go south. I found that it easy to get in the habit of not getting your hips involved enough in the swing. “crushing the can” didn’t register with me. However, my though now is to get my left hip out of the way on the downswing. This accomplishes the same thing and has made my play more consistent. Hope this helps.
S&T worked for me from the beginning (when the article came out) and is working better than ever today. It seems like a much more natural way to achieve rotational movement than does the more current weight-shift style of thinking. My iron play is much better–length has increased, hooks and slices are gone–and I feel more like I am swinging vs. hitting at the ball. The hand flipping handsiness in my swing has also been largely eliminated. For the driver, my consistency is greatly improved. One comment with the driver: a slight less exaggerated S&T gives the best results. Overall, I think the central concept of centering oneself over the ball can work for a lot of people and I would think it is easier to teach than the more complicated weight shift methodology.
nice postings guys!
just over two weeks ago one of my scramble playing partners who is a 5 HC was doing this contorted looking swing, unlike anything I had seen him do before!… I asked him what in tar he was doing, and he replied he was trying something he saw in an old (for him) issue of GD… I asked why and he said that it was the swing that Weir had gone to cuz it was easier on his back and allowed him to swing easier… BINGO!… lights went off in my head!… I’ve played with a separated rib problem over the past 4 years that at times makes it impossible to play through even with copious amounts of Ibu and Robax Platinum… then last year I developed sciatica and have had 3 bouts with that since last October… practising at the range is not much of an option mostly due to the pain in the ribs… with my traditional swing the pain generally started about 1/3 of the way back… a full turn was not an option… through all this i have been as low as 5.9 HC but this summer both conditions had me bumping closer to 10 HC and I could see no relief in site…
until 2 weeks ago… it was a scramble so we had time on the tees and my bud explained everything he knew about SaT… and suggested I try it out at the range… range be d%mned… I was going to try it out then and there… and proceeded to hit more, better iron shots than I had in the previous injury riddled months… I was enthused to say the least…
that week I went out and using the version that I had been taught by my bud and after viewing what I could online hit more range balls than I had all summer… last week the same… I have now played more pain free rounds of golf in the past 2 weeks since switching to SaT than in the previous 4 weeks…
In a nutshell:
I am hitting longer by a club to a club and a half
i am hitting controllable draws
I am hitting straighter
I can make a pain free _full_ turn
I can hit long irons
I can now hit a driver using SaT
on the topic of the driver: at first this was very ackward… it felt as if I was about to pound the driver head into the ground and was actually forcing me to swing over the top with this longer club… no such problem with the shorter 4 wood… so I compensated, rightly or wrongly by gripping down on the driver to the same length that a 4 wood would be… bingo again… by gripping down 2 – 3″ I am able to make a full SaT swing and am now
hitting the driver on average 20 yards further than before… even with gripping down 3″ at times!!! contact us absolutely solid… very solid last night with a first time trial of the new TM Burner!
have approached our ass’t pro about tutelage in this swing but he isn’t a big fan… to his credit though he said that he would look into the swing and perhaps help me out by observing… I’m willing to be his guinea pig cuz a trained set of eyes is what I really need right now… on sunday I was nailing the par 3’s… hit all five with furthest shot being 15′ away… too bad I can’t putt right now, cuz I’m hitting more greens in regulation than ever before…
so is SaT for me… you bet… who wants to play with pain!?
for those experiencing pain with SaT I would suggest either taping yourself or have someone look at you to determine if what you are doing is not what you are thinking you are doing… cuz the version I’m trying out is the best swing I’ve tried for playing pain free golf
well, where do we start? Having read so much about SAT and just returned from my first practice session using this method I am still slightly sceptical. For starters it’s a completely different feel. Lucky for those who get results with it straightaway but in my case it ain’t going to happen overnight. However, and this is where my initial scepticism gives way to a more positive attitude, I feel I just need, desperately want a swing that is going to get rid of my horrible loop with all the attendant moving parts. I hit a bucket of 60 balls and after a while realized how tighter, shorter and overall more compact my swing felt. This could be a golfing epiphany for me. More balls next week so watch this space.
By the way, is there anybody in the London area who teaches this method?
Robin (Surrey, England )
Erik, about 5 or 6 rounds and 2 or 3 months later, all I can say is Stack/Tilt works for me. The beauty of it all is I just react now. I just swing the club. I can tell I stress less over the ball and am probably holding the grip lighter because of it. It feels very natural to me. I’ve never struck the golf ball like this in the 15 years that I’ve played this game. A repeatable downward strike on the ball which produces a piercing flight.
I don’t ever foresee myself going back to the “conventional” swing.
One note, as other eluded I was shanking the ball at first. I say I stand about 2 inches further away from the ball, compared to the conventional swing.
I first read The Impact Zone before reading about SAT. It worked great for me improving impact but still having inconsistent results since Clampette’s swing is traditional (weight shift to the right on backswing). SAT pulled it all together with basic moves you are all aware of. Thanks for many good suggestions on the driver.
Wow, great feedback for this article. And for the lack of weight shift and more inside takeaway, it’s on the way to Moe Norman’s swing. The evolution of the golf swing continues…
I started playing with S&T when it came out in Golf Digest this year. My handicap has gone from 10 to 5 and the only times I shoot in the 80’s is when I’ve had a horrible short game day. It works for me.
🙂 working on it now since july. it has given me a more repeatable swing> therefore ball contact, slightly more length > better scoring. ’nuff said.
I cannot tell you how thrilled I am with Stack and Tilt. I have cut an average of ten strokes per round off of my last twelve rounds.This is simple, now I’m hitting the ball close to center on three out of four shots.Gaining the feel for S/T is easier than traditional methods, but you do have to stay in tune with the basics or old habits will begin to creep up on you,i.e.a neutral/gentle grip,arms held firm to your chest, shorter backswing, backswing more around the body. This is not just a hip drive or a tilt and jump swing, it is not a violent swing ; EVERYTHING must happen rythmically and together. The thing that I missed at first was, the micro-second that the shoulders must be square to the ball at impact. My non-professional opinon is that if a person begins to snap a hook, they are not shifting their weight from the front foot to ” more ” on the
front foot. Instead they hitting from a shift to the back foot (right foot for right handers). My confidence to do what I want with a shot has improved so much ( for me)! What a gift for those of us who don’t want to spend the rest of our golf -lives in frustration
Paul (8 Nov) has it right. Stack and tilt works when you follow the basics correctly. First you have to keep from moving your head in and out or forward and aft and your weight must stay forward. When ever I start to hit hooks rather than draws, I concentrate on slowing down my back swing, keeping my head over the ball, and keeping my weigh from shifting back to my right foot (I am right handed). Keeping smooth helps. I have to smile when I read notes from the folks that have tried Stack and Tilt for a few days or weeks and then decided that the idea has no merit. Pros like Tiger take months to master changes in their swings. They have instructors working with them daily. They have exception physical skills. Those of us attempting to take up the Stack and Tilt swing need to be patient and we need to work on it at the range. I am scoring better with Stack and Tilt and when I make errors they are usually not as serious. More important, when I make an error, I know pretty much what I did wrong. I hope to see more articles in Golf Digest that deal with specific problems Stack and Tilters are encountering. I am sticking with Stack and Tilt.
I used S&T from the very first time I read about it in Golf Digest. I can believe how I hit the ball now, I’m a club longer and very straight.
I came in for a bit of stick from mates who said that S&T doesn’t work, but after they have seen my scores improve they are starting to ask questions.
I am a 6 handicaper. When I read the article Stack & Tilt and saw the pictures, I had no interest in it at all. The pictures looked terrible and I said that I would never swing like that. But for some reason, I just tried it while I was playing. It worked fine and that made me want to learn more about it.
I have been using this Stack and Tilt for 3 months. But what I do is, I stack but not tilt. I hit more solid and hit at the sweet spot most of the times. It works fine for irons and driver.
I have introduced this Stack & Tilt to many of my friends. Most of them success in improving their ball striking, and of course, improve their score.
It is something that golfers should try.
Been working for me ever since the GD article came out. Although as with some of the guys around here, I have seemed to stray abit from the concepts lately.
My season for entering scores for a handicap has ended for three months. I have been between a 12 and 14 for the last three years. I started with the S&T this summer and immediately improved my distance. I moved from a 12 from last year to a summer 14 and down to an 11 handicap since I began the S&T. My problem is still short irons and greens in regulation. I am playing the best golf of my ten years and at 56 and working full time, only retirement will enable me to put more time into the game. My goal is single digit handicap. I hope the S&T will do it for me next year.
I’m with Polbatarra. I use the stack, but not the tilt. I’m a half way decent player, a 7, but my main problem has always been striking the ball solidly. I could tell the issue was timing, coming back into the ball. If my timing was good that day, I played well. If not, well, I didn’t.
But with the “stack” at least, I stay much more centered over the ball and am able to strike it much more cleanly.
Also, I always tended to have a low ball flight because of a slightly shut club face on the backswing and a strong movement (almost lateral) to the ball which resulted in me sweeping more than striking down.
Now, I strike down on the ball more and, as a consequence, the ball has a much better/higher ball flight.
S&T worked for me! I have been using for 4 months and have consistently lowered my scores and contributed to a double eagle last week. I only wish there were local instructors in the Phonix area to fine tune the swing.
Read about S & T in Golf Digest and found the video on the Golf Digest website. I am a 12 and this swing worked on the driving range the very first time I tried it and has worked wonders for my consistency and length on the golf course. I even had an eagle after a long drive and straight 2 iron to about 4 feet. It’s been a long time since I’ve been this excited about a swing change (it’s really a whole new swing).
I’ve even tried it from the bunkers. It seems to make a much more shallow divot, making it easier to get the ball out.
Does anyone know how I can find S&T instructor in northern Virginia??? The pros I’ve talked to about the S&T all pooh-pooh it. But it works for me, so I’d like to take some lessons and see how to improve even more.
I didn’t want to write about this swing because I was afraid the magic would disappear, but what the heck.
I tried SAT a month ago. It immediately cured my fat shots, which I have tried to cure since I took up golf without success. The swing relieves you of all the baggage and bits and pieces you tend to accumulate. I now make it a point not to read any new golf tips and shows on tv about golf swings in case I fall into that trap again. To cut the story short – I now hit every green I look at when I have a six iron or less in my hands. Everything is just automatic! And all this from just reading a magazine article…
After reading the artical I decided to give S&T a try. After a couple days on the range my ball striking and my distance improved. This swing also help to combat my dreaded slice and immediatley cured my fat shots as well. There is one issue I have not work out yet. My swing path is a little outside to in with a square club face. I’m pulling shots to the left, solid contact just to the left. Anybody got any suggestion are drills on how to get the club inside. I love the swing my drives explode off the tee just some are to far left. I shoot in the 90,s . I’m
from Texas can’t find a instructer thats familure with S&T in the Dallas area.
Whilst on a golfing holiday in SA I happened to read GD and about S&T. 2 one hourly practise sessions later I took it to the course in Mauritius and promptly won the Caddies scramble hitting unbelievable shots, and our team finished on -7. I was hooked as they say! I have been a single figure handicap for over 25 years and have never produced the quality of shots as I have done since trying S&T. My only reservation is that since returning to the UK I seem to have suffered a dip in being consistent, as I see from reading some of the reports others have suffered in the same way. What I would like to ask WMOLAW is when he says he just stacks, but not tilts, how much of it does he employ? Does he put 60% of his weight on his left side in the backswing, and does he come inside as they tell you to do? I think this is a great site to air this debate, keep it going, I am determined to make S&T work for me!
I was using s/t one day at the range in Buffalo a few weeks ago and didnt really know it. I was hitting my 6 iron, which i have shied away from, straight, high, with noticeably more zip and much, much more compression! I remembered Lee Trevino saying he learned on hard pan and compression was a must. I emulated this by hitting off the hard part of the mat where you usually stand. I could feel the compression and the ball was gone!! Teachers criticize it but do they realize by saying it will wreck your body. Rubbish! I’m only a 3 year, 54 yr. old player shooting in the high 90’s but when a system works it works. did we learn the shift to the back foot to alleviate pain or evade injuiry? NO it was because we thought that was the only correct way to learn. So using s/t allows weight to compress the ball on iron shots and thats the key. Works on my hybrids except the 2 hybrid, needs work. Works on woods for me with less weight on the front, more like 55/45, and you must sweep the woods back more instead of a steep takeaway. this assures a flat swing into impact while still keeping the head over the ball. for iron shots this is a godsend!!
Like other posts I had read I had used a variation of the S&T a while ago actually before my County Tournament. The day before i was so frustrated I just kept hitting balls until I found something that would work, and what I found was setting my weight slightly forward and keeping it there and then turning hard out of the way worked well. Anyways, long story short I shot a 76 in the tourney and missed a playoff because I three putted two of the last three holes so I know that this swing can/will work. I think the key element to the S&T is being able to consistently fire your hips which can be a problem for some higher handicaps.
When the article came out I knew this sounded familiar and tried it again. Like others I liked the lower ball flight and crisper feeling irons. I tried it for a little while but after talks with my pro I decided it was worth going it on my own.
Because of college I haven’t played in a good while and probably wont again until May and when I do I think I may just think with the S&T. I have complete confidence that if you don’t have time to practice enough to time a weight shift, this swing will be a more consistent ball striking swing. Two biggest faults I would see people falling into. Make sure you don’t turn this swing into a reverse pivot (start neutral/slightly forward and then shift backwards) and like I said before fire those hips. Good Luck to all
First off, the theories/origination of the swing did not want it to be called stack and tilt. Stacked is a position in the golf swing while one maintains the proper tilts. This golf swing is a science and has been tested, SO IT WORKS. For all those people out there that have tried it, you cannot simply look at some photographs on the web site and think you can take on this approach. I learned this swing when i was 15 years old and I am now 22, and still have flaws. The problem is there are very limited amount of teachers who teach the swing this approach let alone know enough to talk about it. If anyone has ever met Mike Bennett, who has made this swing a science, would be extremely impressed.
Fellow Golfers, like most if not all of you, I’m just a simple human being who loves golf & looks for impovement at all times. Trust me, when I say, I’m a 8hcp, sway in the back swing, flying right elbow thus cupped left wrist and long back swing..All in all Nightmare in London, but the short game saves me….Someone intoduced me to a Teacher, close collague to Mac Grady..after the 1st lesson he intoduced me to this method, meaning I’m now rotating on the axis (as it should be).I don’t feel it’s a reverse pivot, as I feel I’m leaning towards the ball NOT towards the target…and now I can stop the hands at 9 o’clock position quite easy, just to find my way to this new method. What has changed dramatically, is COMPRESSION on the ball !!! proper golf shots..End of the day, there are different swings for everyone. You have to find what suits you….and that requires experimenting..Go for it.
My guy started working on this before the article came out, don’t know where he got it from. Thought he was crazy. I can tell you that it does leave me for a week or more sometimes but when it does it is usually because I have gotten to long or my turn is too flat. Lengthening the swing causes a lift before the hips can clear. If either of these happens you have no chance. My only complaint is that my 3 iron is now too low trajectory wise for summertime hard greens. My driver needed to come down somewhat. When it works it is longer, straiter and lower(a good thing for me) throughout the bag. It even helped my partial length pitches!
I was playing golf at Cape Schanck in Melbourne Australia. They had some old Golf Digest magazines for sale for only $2.50 so I bought Aug and Sept 07. Had never heard of S&T before that. My h/cap usually 13-15, left handed aged 43, golfing regularly for about 8 years.Wanted to move to the next level. First time I tried it I flushed heaps, although score was 5 over h/cap. Next two rounds had 81 and 79 (incl 12 pars!) on par 72 courses. The 79 was the best ball striking round I’ve ever played. Its easy to lose it during a round but stick to basics and it comes back. Keep head dead still and weight slightly forward during backswing. Then just hit the ball. I sometimes swing with my shoulders thus pull/push ball, but if I keep my elbows tight it helps. Contact better than I could ever believe. I hope it keeps going, club champs next month. I’ve never enjoyed golf more than right at this moment….Right now, I’m certainly a convert!
Stack and Tilt 2; What a godsend!! Still using it at the range as its winter here (Buffalo NY) and no apparent chance of a warmup to play… Hitting irons very, very crisply from 5 iron to wedges. I have never hit irons as well and its a joy to practice them, even bought new ones!! Even doing flop shots off a hard surface. To my surprise I’m hitting my woods better then ever!! I can feel a definite pinch on the ball and would probably take a small divot judging by the feel. That pinch on the woods sends the ball out faster, higher, and straight. The same translates to all my hybrids from 29 to 17 degrees; I can hear and feel the pinch and the ball rockets on a penetrating trajectory. The driver needs some work, but i think thats mostly due to a new club with a longer shaft length than i am used to. The important thing is iron compression on the ball, and consistency with all clubs in the bag. Also much less soreness in the back compared to conventional setup. What a joy!! Cant wait to take it to the course!!
Stack and tilt seems pretty good, but it is alot like the old theory of swinging inside a barrel, I think it will cause some back pain eventually, oh and by the way has anybody asked Jimmy Ballard aka swing and sway with sammy k.
I thought it was time for me to comment again. I began the S&T in July with good success. By October I was at my lowest handicapp ever, 11. In the winter season I got sloppy, stopped straightening my right leg and lost some consistency. I bought myself Stan Utley’s short game book for Christmas and decided to revamp my chipping and pitching which was good but I need an extra stroke from somewhere to make it to a 9 handicapp. I am erratic now, 39 – 47 on par 72 on my first with the new short game, but as I get the consistency, I expect to make my 9 handicapp.
I first learned about the S&T through a friend early in the summer of 07. Through weeks of practice and head games I put on myself I finally committed to the change. Within a couple of months I had the best ball striking round I can remember. I remember coming away from that round understanding how sub 70 feels. Lately my downswing has gotten out of sorts and subsequently have been (sorry to mention the word) shanking it. Go figure. Nothing in golf is perfected, we all know this too well that’s why we play, but this swing has the least moving parts of any method I know of. Efficiency leads ultimately to consistency, and that ladies and gentlemen is the key to a better game (provided that consistency is in the right direction).
RE: Consistency and pain; As with any changes with a swing sometimes it will work better then other times. for that matter thats the game of golf! I have been having great practice sessions especially with my irons. My ball compression with irons has dramatically improved resulting in more boring trajectories and straighter. Last week with my new game improvement irons, which are much heavier then my old irons, i started smothering the ball. I had to adjust my hip angles as i was getting lazy and not bending at the hips. Would of probably happened using any method as a fundamental is omitted and problems arise. Once i corrected that it was back to success again. Yesterday’s practice started good as always with wedges, and started smothering the ball again with 8 iron and longer. This time the adjustment was a flatter backswing with irons 8-5 (3 and 4 are hybrids). Since I am hitting down on the ball, I dont need such a steep backswing to try and get compression. Again once the correction was made back to good compression. I am very happy with my hybrid play; high straight, good pinch at impact, with reduced hooks. (Have to remember to play the 3 and 4 hybrids like a 5 iron and not like a 5 or 3 wood) As for pain I practice once a week, minimum of 3 large buckets (450+ balls), and less pain then before s/t!! No knee pain either, just the usual stiffness for a flexible 54 year old!! PS; keep your head behind the ball for the driver, and you will still sweep it off the tee!!
Just found the article here as I was doing some golf reading(winter golf trip is coming up so coming out of hibernation here).
My story is very much like what seems to be a common theme. My golf swing was all over the place. So when I read the article I was intrigued. It seemed so simple that it might just work.
I went to the range and for the next few days I was like a kid at christmas. I couldn’t believe some of the iron ots I made at the range. That crisp clean contact and straight penetrating ballflight was something I had never seen before. My old shots used to fly through the air like lazy lobs. This new ballflight was like a plane taking off. Pushing straight thru the air.
I was shocked at how well it worked and couldn’t wait to tell my golf partner about it. I decided I ws going to give it a serious try. Over the next couple of rounds and range sessions I had some driver issues. So I eventually left the driver in my trunk and played an all iron game. My plan was to commit the swing to muscle memory and then learn at adapting to the swing with longer clubs.
However, as the summer went on my story turned the same as many others. The magic just dissapeared. Oh I’d hit some beauts once in awhile but for the most part it was gone.
Then one day I was at the range about a quarter of the way thru my bucket. It had been a terrible struggle to try an find that “initial high” I had when I first tried it. But luckily like magic it appeared again.
Over time I had been using the swing. But as I became more and more comfortable with it I started doing other things. Mainly I started swinging at the ball instead of “uncoiling”. When I was swinging at it and making contact I was creaming my irons. I would tee off with a 6-iron and ould be putting my tee shots up with most peoples drivers(I don’t play with exceptionally long hitters but 225yd 6-irons were not unusual).
So on the range something changed and all of a sudden I relaxd and found the swing again. Keeping the body stacked over the ball. Not swinging with the arms and starting the downswing by pushing off the left leg. But not how I was before. Before I was more popping up off my left leg and that was a problem. The magic came back when I relaxed, coiled over the ball, and then simply stood up and let the club whip itself back around. Crisp clean straight contact again.
Of course a few weeks later I was struggling to find the magic again. But it’s there. Heading off to SC for a week shortly and plan on using the S&T while I’m there. I’m am truly curious if it’s going to be a mess because I haven’t golfed in 4 months. Or perhaps it will be magic again because I will be back to the swing basics and not my mutilated version.
I am 63, and have played the game for over 50 years. During my entire career at this game – high school and college competitive golf and 40+ years as a recreational player – I have struggled with a too-inside swing path. On a good day, I would enjoy a nice, controllable draw. On a bad day, when the club gets stuck behind me, I would fight a snap hook or a big block to the right all day. Not a fun way to play the game. So, I was most intrigued when the hype started on the Stack and Tilt. I have worked with it, and have some observations that might help others. It stopped my hook cold, and while some days have been great, other days have been absolutely terrible. I think I’ve finally figured out why.
The huge majority of amateurs, including myself, have the tendency to hit AT the ball instead of swinging THROUGH it. With the conventional swing you can get away with this tendency some of the time, but with the S&T, hitting AT the ball and not finishing the swing is the kiss of death.
The Stack & Tilt swing requires a very aggressive move through the ball. If you have CONTACT as your primary goal, and sort of “quit” after impact, the results will usually be disastrous. You can take your time on the backswing, but on the downswing, that “stand up” move with the left leg has to be very aggressive, and your goal has to be not to “hit” the ball, but to swing through it aggressively and get to the finish position as quickly and smoothly as possible (watch Tiger Woods). If you’re wishy-washy with the left leg stand-up move, and think the job is done after impact, you’ll hit some of the butt-ugliest shots you’ve ever seen. Been there; done that.
I still walk the course, even though I’m getting to be an old man, and I’ve noticed my best ball striking with the S&T comes early in the round. As I get tired, and the left leg loses the strength to stand up and throw the left hip up and around (which whips the club through the hitting area), my ball striking absolutely goes to hell. It’s not uncommon for me to play the first nine with the S&T swing, then finish the round with my old swing that doesn’t require as much work. Bottom line, the Stack & Tilt swing is not meant for the lazy golfer. It takes some work, and for me, it’s almost more work than it’s worth.
By the way, I attended a seminar recently with the teacher/club fitter at the Taylor Made Performance Lab in Portland, OR. He is now an “authorized” teacher of the S&T swing, and he said that Tiger Woods’ swing is VERY close to the Stack & Tilt swing. If you watch him, you’ll see that coming down he has that little “squat” like Sam Snead had, and coming out of that squat he “stands up” very aggressively with the left leg which whips the club through impact and into the finish. The downswing move especially is classic S&T.
I like the Stack & Tilt swing, but my opinion is that it might be best suited to the young and strong player. I like the results I see, but it requires more work than I am able to sustain over an 18 hole round. Oh, to be young again… 😥
Its nice to hear an experienced golfer try the technique and provide feed back. YES Tiger does squat during his swing especially his driver swing. RE: young legs and swinging the club; I have found (at the range only, snowing here now!) that if I get lazy with my wrist cock, the club does not follow my body through the shot. Also the stand up move becomes more of a slide, which produces acceptable results but not as much pop as the stand up. Thats probably true of any iron swing. After trying this swing and especially with the driver i have noticed the critical part is the hips/legs. If they fire first the swing becomes easier and more fluid. When i get a chance to play in the spring i will definitely warm up as much as possible (especially when you have to pay $35.00 or more to play!) to get the lower body active. I’ma very flexible 54 years old, and i think the s/t can work for us “seniors”!
Ron, you’re exactly right…the hips and legs are the key to making a successful Stack & Tilt swing. I’ve noticed that when I am fresh and can really stand up aggressively with the left leg, which propels the hips up and around, I am hardly even aware of the club whipping through impact. If the left leg and hips do their job properly, the actual swinging of the club is almost effortless. That’s what I like about the swing. I have experimented extensively, and what works best for me is a fairly short, flat backswing, elbows kept close together, left arm staying tight to the rib cage and not lifting up and away from the body. It’s a tight and compact swing, propelled almost exclusively by the left leg and hip. I love the way it feels, and for the most part, I really like the results. It has straightened out the hook that I fought for 50 years.
But, I have found that the move with the left leg and hips takes its toll on an old man. I played 9 holes yesterday, and when I finished, the pain in my left knee told me it didn’t like what I’d been doing to it. So I don’t know…I’ll probably keep stacking and tilting as much as my body will let me, and when it yells too loudly, I’ll go back to my old swing. It doesn’t work as well, but it lets me play pain-free…
Started using the S&T at the range both mats and grass during these past winter months. I’m a 16 HC struggling the constant push. After some lessons this past summer, nothing helped. The S&T has allowed me to hit the ball much straighter about 10 yards longer. Now if I fail to get my hips up and turned, I’ll push it. Great feedback for me. I’m hoping to get my HC down to the 10-12 range by mid spring. Last round was 13 over on a 45 degree day with 15 mph wind.
In a nutshell, I’ve used SAT for about 6 months and have never played better. It seems to have corrected my one big problem: inconsistent weight shift. I’m playing the ball off my left heel on all full shots and, for the first time ever, am making solid contact on every shot. Over the past three years I’ve adopted a one plane swing and SAT seems to fit it perfectly. “Zen Golf” has helped, too. I’m sold on the technique.
I somewhat share the thoughts of LarryB. I am 73, 6’2″,195lb and have also been playing for over 50 years. I started with Hogan, but never got it. My # has been 14-16. After I read the first article, I went to the course and hit 30 wedge shots. 29 divots were in front of the ball, straight and half on the green 100 yds. I had never hit an iron that consistently before. I started to use it last spring and all season long. (I live in a northern state) I qualified in a club tournament that I hadn’t even played in for 25 years. I finished the season with an 11 handicap. My irons were the best part of the process with drives the shakiest with a lower ball flight and a little less distance. I’m going to try a 10.5 driver this spring. But a serious problem developed. Before the second article came out I was playing a round and on a tee shot a sever pain shot through my right thigh (I am right handed). I fell to the ground not knowing what had happened. Eventually my whole upper let turned black with a sever mussel strain and six months later still has some soreness. I now think I did not shift any weight to the left side. In other words, I forgot about the left side factor on that one swing.
I am absolutely sold on the S/T swing method. I have been fighting a terminal case of the ” hooks ” for three years. It got so bad that I resorted to hitting a big cut on purpose, just to keep the ball in play. My handicap went from 1 to 7( I know, “poor baby” ) I was really frustrated with how I was striking the ball. I read a web based article that said that the S/T was a cure for the hooks, so I tried it and the first 10 drives I hit were beautiful little fades or dead straight and after four months and several buckets of balls, my misses now are to the right instead of the big snapper. I am 56 years old and have been playing golf since age 13. I don’t agree that it takes more effort to make this move, however it did take some effort to get rid of the old swing and ingrain the S/T. I find that my misses happen when I try to give it more effort. I no longer fear the tee box and my wedge play has improved tremendously. Thank you Bennett and Plummer.
The problem with S&T is that it endorses the current notion that the swing bottom MUST be forward of the ball, as if that’s the only way to play the game.
The ideal impact is to have the swing bottom exactly at the point that the ball touches the ground. S&T is just one more way of saying that if you reduce the probability of error #1, you’ll produce a better score. And it’s true.
For a while.
After a bit, that swing bottom that was at the “ideal” four inches in front of the ball starts to move even further, the shot quality deteriorates, and you have to adjust.
This happens with any swing, but now your mind is conditioned to make one kind of error, and you’ve gotten away from the physical — and psychophysical — ideal.
“After a bit, that swing bottom that was at the “ideal” four inches in front of the ball starts to move even further, the shot quality deteriorates, and you have to adjust.”
Nat i dont know if you are saying ST is good or bad by your comments but its like anything else thats not executed properly; conventional, st, etc. I can say that not being a great iron player last year, i expect to be much better this year due to S/T and being able to compress the ball and not “wood swinging” with irons. BUT i had my 1st bad practice session this weekend. I could not hit the ball especially with my irons. Some of it was me (actually all of it!) as I could hit the driver consistently on the sweet spot. It seems i was coming in too steep with my irons and either topping or severely slicing the ball. I went to the range on invite two days later and had the same problem. I suspect the problem was my lower body and not my swing that much. I will try again Friday and hopefully i can get back to the progress i had started…
Huh??? Wha??? On what planet is the perfect iron NOT struck with the divot beginning after the ball. And the idea of 4 inches, where did that come from? I’m sorry, but if I introduced “psychophysical”
into my swing I would be messed up. My spell check did not even like that word.
I started working on this almost 2 years ago and my instructor and I had no idea it was called stack and tilt. Despite limited play and practice, I am striking the ball better than ever. It keeps getting better. Matt Williams at Debordieu in SC teaches this well.
40 years ago I was told to strike the ball first with a descending blow to impart backspin to the ball, never was I told that the ideal bottom position was where the ball rested on the ground, and I can’t find the “4 inch” thing in any of the S&T instuction that I’ve read. I still believe that this is a good way for the weekend golfer and the beginner to play golf. I believe less can go wrong because there are fewer moving parts and S&T helps you stay over the ball and make solid contact.
Much to my golf pro’s dismay I have stuck with Stack and Tilt since last spring. Before switching to ST my big miss was hitting the ball fat and/or spinning out with my hips. With ST I now know what it is like to make ball first contact and what it feels like to hit it pure. I recommend this swing to anyone who wants a simple move that is very repeatable. Overtime I have had to watch how much I allow my left knee (right handed golfer) to bend in my backswing (in other words over doing it). Focusing on not allowing my head to move left limits this. ST puts the focus on exploding up through the shot by straightening my left leg (I did not say standing up loosing all of my spine tilt). This move limits how much my hips spin and allows me to feel like I am covering the ball through the shot. The result is ball first contact. All you nay sayers should give it a try before you bash it…
March 26, 2008
I spent the last couple of months of 07 season committing to trying the S&T.
The full irons PW, SP, LW, 9,8,7,6, immediately gained a club in length and ability to hold the greens and remain good this year. (Got to keep those hands ahead at impact.)
I had mild success with the driver and have improved it in 08.
The main improvement in 08 is in the 7 & 5 woods (I don’t use a 3 wood, because my driver is a Nicklaus 15% due to slower swing speed. I’m nailing them like I haven’t in over 5 years. I had pretty much given up on them.
Sand and partial wedges need work, especially the Lob wedge, which I use for many shots. I adhere to the Pelz system and have had success and can’t quite “square” the two methods yet for partial shots.
I’m 59 yrs old and used to shoot 90 on my home course (par 70). It was steadily nearer to 80 after the change including an all time low of 75. This is with the same set of fitted Zevo clubs from 10 years ago, except for the driver.
My comment about hands ahead at impact was meant for the driver, but I inserted it with the wrong paragraph. Sorry.
On the wedges, a full swing always works well, but I can’t seem to back off of a full swing for partial lengths like the Pelz dead hands swing.
Noticed Badd’s swing last year at the open at how easy and compact it looked but had no idea about the S&T. Read the article later and decided to try.
I have a exteneded backswing with fast hips (lot of working parts) and if my timing in off, I have to grind the round away. this swing is great because it has shortened my backswing and still allows for my fast hips. Shots are crips and long. Long irons took awhile but the driver I have modified the swing abit. If I swing easy and fluid (no strangling or tightening), it works great.
I guess you could say I’m also a half stacker. I read the article last summer and tried the S&T. It worked for a couple rounds but as soon as I started to struggle I gave up on it. Over the winter I worked with Paul Wilson’s Swing Machine method. It has given me huge improvement, but something wasn’t clicking. About a month ago, I decided to combine the S&T and the Swing Machine swings. At setup, I load 60 on the front and 40 on the back. I try to hold this as I coil the upper body. I uncoil from the hips first. The torque is fantastic. Contact has never been more consistent and I’m finally breaking 80 again. I use the same swing driver through wedge, only changing the setup slightly.
Every swing should be unique. The best method is whatever works for that indvidual.
I’ve been using the stack and tilt since early January. I’ve been playing golf properly at a club for two years now and I’m 46 yrs old. For the first year I was playing well (self taught-got down to 18 handicap) then I had a 6 lesson package for Christmas off the wife. The pro said I was swinging with a reverse pivot and basically changed everything I did. The result was awful golf and my handicap suffering. When I read the S&T artical it was a eurika moment. I had been doing the S&T before the pro got his hands on me. I’m now swinging without thinking and playing really well.
My second entry in this thread…
After a lot of trial and error, including lessons, it was homemade video that showed me what was going on. My weight would roll onto the outside edge of my right foot in the backswing, and from there I just couldn’t get back until it was too late. No instructor ever noticed this, unfortunately, but I finally spotted it after studying my own videos. So I made a point of trying to keep the weight on the inside of the right foot. This, I discovered, isn’t so easy. But with more trial and error, I found that the slight forward shift of weight in the setup, plus a bit of the “swinging in a barrel” image, allowed me to keep the weight loaded on that inside edge. It is (for me) also necessary to have a fairly short backswing. If I try to take it back too far, the weight will roll onto that outside edge no matter what. And the result will be a thin hit or a skull. But with a fairly conservative backswing and the weight on the inside edge, I hit down into the ball and contact is so much better that I get better distance anyway, to the point where my golf partners wonder where the distance comes from, with such a compact swing. I didn’t know any of this was called “Stack and Tilt” until later.
Other golfers will have other swing flaws, but for me it’s all about keeping the weight on the inside of the right foot, and the only way to do that consistently is S&T.
I love it with the irons. Amazing crisp shots. No more chunks. I am a 10 handicap, and my biggest problem had always been iron consistency, and this is great.
Driver is a mess though. I went from hitting slight draws with great consistency to hitting bleeding cut slices, or pull slices.
Any help why this is?
Scott. I had trouble with tee shots until I read the second instruction issue which stressed the hip slide much more than the first set of instruction. I usually hit a consistant draw now so long as my hands stay together on the shaft throught the swing. I also have a longer comment above in Feb.
I didnt see much stacking and tilting in the final round of the masters. Oh, by the way, Is Mike Weir still stacking and tilting, because his front foot is practically off the ground in his backswing. I’ve never seen weight on something that is in the air. I noticed he changed his pre-shot routine back to the old.
Why dont somebody ask Eric Axley(203rd in GIR, 182nd in fairways hit), Franklin Langham (Dead last in both stats, shot 90 last week) or Will Mckenzie (193 on money list and awful stats) how they are coming along !
Aaron Baddelay is their model ? He was 193rd in greens in regulation in 2006 and 188th in 2007 !
THEY MUST BE HELPING HIM WITH HIS STACK AND TILT CHIPPING AND PUTTING !
stack n tilt is defo the way forward.take a look at the scottish golf union results since our national coaches started coaching stack n tilt.richie ramsey took stack n tilt over to the states and walked the us amatuer.
Jerrold, do you have a link?
William, the stack n tilt isn’t perfect. But I am finding that it really helps me with my ball contact. I am not a touring pro, I am a 10 handicap trying to drop a couple more shots. I think this stack and tilt provides some quality swing thoughts regarding balance and weight that are more consistent with what I have tried using Leabetter weight shifts. I am sure Leadbetter’s weight shifts can work great, but I haven’t been taking lessons from him, and I think stack and tilt is easier to apply for a player of my ability.
My ball striking has definitely improved. My compression on iron shots is much better. I have gone a full club up distance wise (not necessarily my goal, but an interesting effect). My fat shots are far fewer and my usual big sweeping hook from coming over the top has been eliminated.
Your swing may be perfect already, which is fine, no need to learn something new. Mine was not, and I’m finding this method to be very productive.
Scott, you obviously dont know stack and tilt, stack and tilt teaches players to re-hinge wrists through impact and not take divots! Compressing means trapping the ball or catching more on the downswing, thats not what they are teaching! And as far as your sweeping hook, their students do hit big draws unfortunately ! I dont know how much you know about the swing, but a sweeping hook is a inside-to-out swing with a clubface that is closing ! Over the top doesnt cause a sweeping hook. Go to your local club on saturday morning and tell me how many players are out there coming over the top and hitting sweeping hooks. THEY WISH !
The S&T has cured my biggest problem — getting my weight to my left side. But I do have a caveat that is applicable to any swing change. At first the difference will be very noticeable, but after 50 swings or so it will seem “normal,” and you may then conclude, erroneously, that you’re not doing it anymore — tilting toward the target, for example. You will then exaggerate the move to get the feeling back, and this is when things start to head south very, very fast. I’ve pointed this out to many teaching pros, and their reaction is always the same: “Yeah, that’s a problem.” And we pay these guys?
I completely agree with what David said above. What he describes can be applied to any swing change, and has to be guarded against. When the change becomes “normal,” which is actually the goal, and you hit a bad shot or two–bad shots happen–you start to think you’re not “doing it” anymore, and so you overcook it. Then it gets worse and you start to think “it doesn’t work anymore.”
For me, the initial forward weighting is *subtle*. It’s really a small adjustment. I try to make it just enough to be noticeable (by me); no more.
Comments by David and TM are both my experience. I’ve been at it for a year and a pre-shot slow full swing helps me “remember” without exaggeration. I have the most problems with “half” shots. Does anyone have any thoughts on S & T and less that full shots?
I have been using S&T for about 10 months and practiced it twice a week all winter. I also refused to read any other golf information to clutter my thought process. At first the difference was immediate. Iron shots farther and more consistent and driver was better as well. Lately I have been hooking most shots left. Ball striking has been more inconsistent and I have been questioning every step of the process. I have re-read the information 10 times, and I wonder if I am exaggerating the tilt; then I think I’m not tilting enough. Or maybe I’m not striking down on the ball, then I think I’m too steep. Then again maybe my lower body is not doing it’s job. As you probably can tell my mind is a mechanical mess. The swing makes sense to me so I am not giving up on it. Positive feedback would be appreciated.
I shared the same experience as Chris J and after a year at it still do to some extent. I found my over draw shots could be helped by a slight open face to start. I also noted my backswing became lower behind me the more automatic the swing became so I had to work on a little higher take away. It also becomes a process of “over thinking.”
I have just tried the S&T once and the results are amazing: a much clear ball contact from the first shot!!. Manuel de la Torre (“Understanding the Golf Swing” page 63) is similar in the sense of avoiding to move the weight back; he propose just to keep you in balance and centered over the ball . I think this is the real key for consistency in average golfers which can not practice as much as a Tour pro. Here is a link with some good keys to hit the driver using the S&T swing:
http://www.emeraldbaygolfclub.com/video/stackandtilt.pdf
I’ve been using the S&T for several years now. Using the traditional swing I spent many hours trying to perfect my tempo, which was necessary in order to shift back off the inside of the left instep. I am tall and this, for me, was a difficult thing to do. The S&T instantly fixed this. It just made sense. My problem now is that my teaching pro has abandoned me and now I am back to trying to correct any problems by self examination. He said the swing should be like baseball, to which I replied that the stack and tilt is more like a hockey slap shot where the weight stays toward the front.
So far so good, I’m shooting in the high 80’s and hitting more greens. I’m sticking with it.
Having taught golf, the biggest problem with swing changes is nobody practices enough. If a tour pro wants to change a small bit it takes months and thats with Butch Harmon or someone watching. The average golfer has no idea what his swing mechanics are and therefore can not self correct. I know this because I have tried self teaching myself. I have tried almost every method from Natural Golf to Gary Edwards whose students include. Pampling, at one time Peter Lonard and Gavin Coles who could be a top 60 player if he was a big larger in stature. JULIUS BOROS WON 2 US OPENS WITH STACK AND TILT.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO LEARN ARNOLD PALMERS SWING? IF YOUR SERIOUS FIND AN INSTRUCTOR YOU TRUST AND A SWING THAT FITS YOUR ABILITY AND STICK WITH IT. THIS GAME IS DIFFICULT ENOUGH WITHOUT TRYING A NEW SWING EVERY MONTH.
I’m 62 and as a young man I could play. After gaining and losing 160 lbs. I decided to “re-learn” the game. Teacher after teacher taught me and thousands of balls and swing thoughts later – I still stunk. While briefly I was a four (thirty years ago) I am now a thirty. Years and years of low 80’s and a once in a while trip to the seventies seemed a distant memory. When I read the SAT article it felt familiar somehow. I went to the range and bang – this felt like my swing of forty years ago. Not as long but a crisp, accurate draw and consistent! I spoke of this to a good golfer who commented as follows – How did it feel after a month? Boy, was he right. I’m back to the same old junk results. And worse, now I have a new problem – I literally stop at the top and have to reload. I did it eight times on the tee box while my son laughed at me. Get to the top and freeze solid. I’m reading Rotella, Zen Golf, Tom Galway and Mike Murphy trying to get my mind straight. I often say that I wish I didn’t know what it was like to play well as the current failure to get it together is all the more frustrating. Any advise out there for the big freeze?
I still have the VJ GD in the rack and return to it almost weekly. But where is the book? These guys need to write a book (or I need to know that they have). My last teacher refuses to teach me the “reverse pivot”.
Does anyone know if http://www.stackandtilt.com is legitimate?
Having already been a victim of ID-theft, I’m wary of putting in an order on a fairly new site with no phone number as a means of contact.
Thanks!
Also there is other website more known, where they sell the DVDs: http://www.medicus.com/stackandtilt.php
Does anybody already buy the DVDs? In case so, which is your opinion? I have just bought the Stan Utley´s book for short game because I read in other forum that it was like “stack and tilt for the short game”. When I´ll finish reading it I will post my opinion
I’m 67 and surprised I’ve yet to see anyone mention Tommy Armour (Armour III’s granddad). He was the recognized as the premiere instructor in his day and he taught (and wrote) all golf shots are set up with your weight on your left side and kept on the left side through out the swing. The only exception is the teed up Drive because you’re hitting on the upswing. That seems to be the main criticism of the Stack and Tilt – too hard to hit the Driver. I’ve been experimenting with the Stack and Tilt and feel like I’ve gained some yardage with the Irons and lost with the Driver but hit both straighter and if my chipping and pitching ever improve, the scores will really drop.
MichaelM: Great advice!!. I read Tommy Armour´s great book “How To Play Your Best Golf All The Time” and I didn´t even remember it, but it is as you have stated. Thanks for remembering it. Armour suggests to set your weight up favoring your left foot rather than the right foot. I cite a paragraph:
” To hit a good iron shot, your club must contact the ball before the sole of the club gets to the bottom of its arc. Tis get backspin on the ball, eliminates hitting behind the ball, and gets the hands ahead of the ball as the shot is hit. Having the weight borne more on the left foot than on the right as you´re coming into the ball is the way of getting the correct downward path for the iron.”
“Impact on the long iron shot: Weight is still on the left foot (as it was in address and throughout the swing).”
“Hitting the ball a long way … depends on the effective use of the hands, rather than on trying to throw the weight of the body into the shot”
…..”your body is on a steadily fixed upright axis.”
Another classic instructor using no weight shift during the swing!!! Ckeck also Count Yogi and Mindy Blake swing.
Great video about the foundations an advantages of this swing:
http://www.southlandgolfmagazine.com/t-av-new-tour-swing.aspx
S&T is not only a no weight shif swing: With the Stack and Tilt swing the golfer starts with about 60% of his weight on the front foot, and actually shifts more weight to the front when taking the club back. Stack and Tilt encourages the golfer to lean towards the target while the club is taken up.
Every time that I forget this ideas my results are not as expected. It´s easy to forget it and go back to the swing that we have made for a long time before. I have to remember myself this couple of ideas and the swing is in perfect fit again to get straight and long shots.
I am a 66 year old recreational golfer who has tried every method and swing aid under the sun. I am an 8 handicap and have been as low as a 6. My swing on video has always showed the same swing faults; raising head on backswing and sliding hips too far towards the target on the downswing.
The S&T solve sthe problem of lifting the head because it feels like it actually lowers to the ball at the start of the backswing and the slide of the hips towards the target is actually encouraged in this swing.
I hit my irons more crisp. MY drives are not any longer but I feel that I am more in control of their direction.
I agree with some earlier comments about the hips and pelvis are in control of the swing and one has to consciously apply more energy to them as the round goes on. You can’t get lazy with your lower body.
When I first tried the S&T my lower back was more symptomatic and I had to give it up. But it is better now and not causing a problem yet with this swing.
I ordered the DVD’s over a week ago and am anxiously waiting to see what is in there that can help; gain more distance off the tee and how to correct shots that start to go too far right. I think I know but need to confirm it.
To sum up; I am tired of changing my swing and this one seems much more simple in its’ concept. I find that I can actually take the few necessary swing thoughts of the S&T to the course and have some success there.
I am 69 y /o. Three handicap. I have a history of conventional golf instruction since age 10. I have been struggling to maintain my handicap. I was scratch at age 45. In the last 10 years I have tried everything to maintain my edge- Natural golf, The Simple Golf Swing, The Dalton swing, etc. I ordered S@T CDs and have had them for a week. I have gone through them three times. I took it to the course, not the range. The r esults are astonishing. I can’t imagine how much improvement I have made without an instructor in the system in a weeks time. Forget the naysayers – Gary Player, Brady Riggs, They don’t have a clue as far as I am concerned. This is not a system to separate you from your money. This is the real thing. I think this will work for others – maybe not beginners I don’t know. For any body who is a 10 or better I would recommend giving this a chance if you’re not satisfied with your situation. I surely is working for me. If nothing else I recommends using it in your short game if nothing else. Since watching the program I have shot 76-72-80-69-70 and 9 holes at 36. This result with a new swing without an instructor- without anything more than watching 3 hrs. of CDs. I feel that with time I can get back to scratch. I am completely sold on this program.
Well I just received my DVD’s (4) today and have viewed 2 of the 4. I was initially disappointed that I couldn’t get them to run on my laptop. I don’t know if that is a problem with what I am doing or if they were made in a format that only my DVD player would play.
The video quality and production is not great but the quality of the instruction is very good. The first DVD covers the basics of the S&T and the fundamentals of a good golf swing. I thought the fundamentals part was going to be of value to beginning golfers but they have some interesting twists on what is really important.
The second DVD I viewed covers what causes slices, hooks, tops and fat shots and then how to make the ball curve the way you want it.
After viewing the the first two DVD’s I had to get out to the practice range and give some of what I heard and saw a try.
I am not a pro yet but I am seeing some serious improvement.
I will watch the last two DVD’s (The S&T in depth and the short game in the next couple of days. I will let you know how they work out. For $1 more a piece they sent a medicus 7 iron, 5 iron and driver. I am not sure how they fit in the S&T method but for $3 I couldn’t pass them up.
Jim,
Just a short question: Is there anything new in the DVDs or anything which is understood in a different way after watching the DVDs ?
I just have a doubt that is not totally clear for me: it is about the position at the top (below or over the shoulder) and the swing plane if it should be flatter or steeper. I have tried both and the feeling is totally diferent. Please I´ll be grateful if anyone can help me to clarify this. Thanks a lot!!
I’ve remained self-taught since picking up the game 3 years ago at 46 years old. Even though I’ve succeeded in getting down to a 3 hcp, there’s a lot of sway in my swing, which leads to some inconsistency and occasional shanks. After reading through this thread yesterday and having a particularly challenging day on the course this weekend, I headed over to the range to give this swing a try. Afterall, I already weight my left side when putting, chipping, pitching and lobbing. I’d love to develop a single swing that works through my entire bag.
I was honestly blown away by how well I struck the ball by weighting my front foot and keeping the weight there during my entire swing. I’m not sure I took the club as far inside as prescribed by this swing method, but the quality of my ball striking was profound! However, like many, I struggled to produce great shots with my driver using this method. I’ll keep experimenting.
I plan to stick with this swing for some time to determine if its benefits are long lasting and will report back. I’d love to think this swing can get me down to my goal of reaching scratch golf by the end of my 4th year – and to break 70.
hanon,
After reviewing the “in depth DVD” there are a couple of surprises. One is that there is no reference to the downswing thought of stomping down on a can with the left heel to start the downswing. The instead talk about the importance of the hips shifting left, not suddenly, but smoothly throughout the downswing to impact.
Another was the importance of the hands moving away from the right shoulder in the downswing at the same time that the hips are moving left. That is important for those of us who tend to let their heads drop back to the right on the downswing even though their weight moves left, prior to impact.
Forgive the rant… I just placed an order for the DVD set from the S&T website. Word of caution; READ the agreements carefully, before clicking them… There are trial offers for Medicus products (which I already own) and they’re somewhat deceiving… I myself was duped! I wasn’t fooled into the medicus “Trial Offers”, however, I intended to choose the $19.95 trial offer and make 4 additional payments of the same, if I was satisfied with the S&T product. Then, up popped the free expedited shipping offer! 🙂 Oh, sure! But only if you opt to pay the entire amount immediately… Oh well… they claim a 60 day return policy.
I’ll admit… I’m skeptical! I’ve tried just about every “do-it-yourself” golf aid out there. I’ve taken lessons (helped the most). I placed my order before finding this site, and just looking for a little feedback.
I’m pleased to read that the majority of the posters here have had success with the system, to one degree or another. It appears after reading that several experienced initial success and that faded with time… I can personally attest that holds true with every aspect of my game, when experimenting with different products and methods — to varying degrees. There seems to be a common theme here; when you get back to the core principals of the system, it comes back for a lot of folks! This is probably true for the majority of methods and aids available… What separates the good from the bad is the simplicity and repeatability of a given system.
There are critics of the S&T, and rightfully so… I’ll certainly report back with my personal/objective opinion… Some of these “critics” have flamed other posters, from my perspective. And I think that’s inappropriate! That said… everyone’s entitled to their opinion.
I’m looking forward to giving the S&T a shot! The one aspect we all have to keep in mind, is that golf is a game of consistency. We’ve all made those incredible shots that we couldn’t repeat if our lives depended on it! That’s what separates us from the pros! And that separates the pros from the “Tigers”!!! Not many of us are fortunate enough to spend the majority of our lives on a golf course… When something comes along that defies convention, yet allows us “weekend hacks” to enjoy more than a few nice shots every round; I’m all about it! Who knows, this might be the answer for me…? If not, I’ll still love this great game! Regardless of how terrible I may play it — it keeps me coming back…
Dear Hack,
I am one who didn’t read the fine print and now have 3 medicus clubs that I don’t know what to do with. I suppose that I should have heeded the old saying “Anything that looks too good to be true; probably is”.
We have a weekly Wednesday night match play even at my club and after watching the DVD’s for a couple of day; I completely stunk up the course. Too much information, too soon.
The next day at the practice range, I went back to the basics (trying to make contact with the ball and then the ground by making sure that my weight was favoring the left side at address, moving more weight left on the backswing and then going left more by shifting the hips prior to impact). I just added trying to keep the “flying wedge” and was hitting the ball pretty good again.
I will let you know if it is a swing that has some consistanly and that I can take to the course in a match.
Does everyone realize what is going here? The stack and tilt is simply nothing more than a full swing version of the chip shot. You’re simply keeping your weight on your front foot and then hitting down on the ball from the inside just like you do on a basic running chip shot. Simply think of it as hitting low 100-225 yd chip shots into the green with your irons (3-SW), depending on which iron you’re using. This also explains why it doesn’t work as well with the driver (driver is not designed to hit down on the ball). End of story.
Steve,
There is a little more to it than that. On the DVD’s they address the angle of descent and ascent with the driver. It works.
Thx. I just went and tried this concept at the range. It is awesome for the irons. Didn’t try it yet for the woods. Which DVD are you referring to?
I’ve found a source for the S&T video that does not involve Medicus – see the PGA Tour Partners Club. Cheaper and no hidden ‘stuff’.
Just starting out with the swing, but have to note that the beauty of the stack and tilt is the simplicity. Start getting videos, books, etc., and you’ll just stink up your brain with too much thinking. You need to just shut all that off and swing the club. Set pressure on left foot, tilt, swing through. The only adjustment I had to make was with the driver – choking up a little and taking a higher swing path. S&T has turned my iron shots around dramatically and has eliminated by giant fade (slice) off the tee. I am more consistent, have fewer bad shots, hit straighter, and as a result of all those am hitting longer as well. It’s not hard on my back, but I do notice that the swing breaks down rapidly if I get fatigued. I am a very high handicap player and will see what this does for me over the next couple of months and report back.
I have found some comments about the DVDs in this forum: http://www.activegolf.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=2223325&mpage=16
A question: I have a doubt about the initial inclination of the back -spine- (in the stance). If I get downward a bit more than normal I get a more rotational swing , with the ball being in the grass further from me. I get better solid contact this way bacause the swing is completely rotational. But I think that this is not pure S&T because I am afraid that S&T is more upright and steeper than I do, with the ball closer to me in the stance (this is, normal ball placement). Is it right that the stance should be more upright than I do??
Also selling the DVDs in this golf shop:
http://www.rockbottomgolf.com/medicus-stack-tilt-instructional-get-stacked-dvd-set.html
Dedicated to those saying that this swing doenn´t work without even trying it. Looks perfect. Weight in the front foot and rotating the shoulder around the FIXED SPINE AXIS. This is the key!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSAvo1Y_30U
Go ahead Badds!
I started adopting this when I first read about it in golf digest last year. I immediately saw the benefit to stacking the weight forward and rotating around this center. I have played golf for about 15 years and have been between 0-3 handicap about the last 3 of them. I have played less golf this past year than any other I can remember but am hitting the ball by far the best ever in my life. The irons have pretty much been good since the beginning but I struggled with the driver similar to many others (snap hooks). I have since realized the importance of one of the moves in the S&T swing. THE DRIVING UP OF THE HIPS ON THE DOWNSWING! This is the key for me to keep the club traveling down the line of the target and not too far from the inside with my arms disconnected from my body. I was driving them up but I have found that the harder I drive them up, the better (and straighter) my driver becomes. Practice this while keeping a glove under the left arm to keep everything connected and moving in better path toward the target and when you get it… unbelievable results!!
Mike Bennett, one of the creators of this swing, directly relates the foundations of S&T. Enjoy it:
http://www.findinternettv.com/Video,item,695973489.aspx
Low 80’s occasional 70’s golfer here.
I have been using the stack and tilt with my irons for 4 or so years now, before it had a name I think. I remember when I hit my first shots without a weight transfer and left everything on the front foot. To keep it short, the perfect divot and the perfect shot, every time at first. Like most I had some troubles a few weeks down the road but stayed with it. Just like any other golf swing this one requires time, it is important to stay with your chosen swing to get repetition and I think more importantly learn to fix when things go bad. I still hit the occasional shank however having used the swing so long I feel the problem and can work through it in a couple of shots.
My driver is a completely different swing. I never could get the S@T to work, always a nasty pull. I went back to my old swing with the driver, hit a ball well, and never looked back.
mid 70’s golfer here.
I came across the stack and tilt (SAT) 2 weeks ago. After much reading and research about it, I was a little skeptical, but it made sense and I am willing to try anything to improve my game. First time I tried the SAT was actually during an outing where we were playing a 4 man scramble. I hit some of the most solid shots of my life. I then used for the next week, hitting the best irons I have ever hit. However, I could not figure out the driver. So I went back to my regular swing and shot a 75 the other day. I had a range session where I fixed my driver. However, using my traditional swing, I did not hit my irons as solid as I would have liked. Back to the driving range and found out that the driver problems I was having was because I was too close to the ball and it wasn’t because of the SAT. Once again, I am using the SAT and am excited about playing the game again. Having always had a solid short game, but lacking a little bit in consistent ball striking, I am excited to think that I might be able to shoot close to par on a regular basis. My one piece of advice if you start struggling after a week or 2 of using the SAT is not to abandoned the swing, but to check your grip and other basics to make sure they are where they should be for your swing.
A forum with comments about the DVDs:
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175425
Well, I’m another thats always looking for that missing piece to golf greatness, so of course I bought the DVD’s. Aaron Baddeley was my hook as I am similar build and I just love his swing, as it looks so effortless and simpl. Thats pretty much where it ends. I watched the first two dvd’s and those guys made it seem way more complicated than it looked and I’m a pretty technical guy. I shanked the heck out of the ball when I first started trying it and instead of killing my friends with friendly fire, I went back to my old inconsistant, unshankable swing. For you all that are doing great, what in the world am I doing wrong? What are some of your swing thoughts taking it back and through? Your help would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
I had read the article quite awile ago but tried it for the first time yesterday. I’m about a 10 handicap and have struggled with ground first contact for a long time. I hit the ball much more solidly and actually get the driver great…….picked up 10 + yards. Seems very important to keep the shoulders square through impact.
I’ve purchased the DVD set and have watched it at least a dozen times. I have hit range balls about six times and played three rounds trying to carry over the SAT foundamentals and not revert back to traditional methods. At times I have found myself completely stymied and feeling lost (especially out on the course). My experiences to date have been positive. Like many have stated I feel my iron play has improved. I feel like I am hitting the ball crisper and getting more consistent distance and direction control. What works for me is to slow down my swing and feel the different rhythmn of this swing. Taking several measured practice swings before I hit the ball reinforces this feeling. When I do this I can put the parts together-start to finish- in the proper perspective. This has lead to a significant improvement in consistency.
I struggle still with the down swing to finish sequence and getting the hips moving continuously forward toward the target while straightening my spine. But I believe this will continue to get easier with more repetition.
What really works for me in practice is to start with a P-wedge and hit quite a few balls to groove the forward weight shift and inside take-away with a mostly passive arm movement. I concentrate on a three quarters swing and gradually move to a full swing before I move on to a stronger iron.
The DVD discusses a key fundamental that this swing technique promotes above all else and that is hitting the same spot on the ground each time and in front of the ball. The SAT technique is one of the first techniques that focuses on this above most every thing else. Toward this end, I believe that if I continue to not lose site of this goal when practicing and playing with SAT, I will be a better ball striker which will translate into better more consistent play.
I have been using the S&T for the past year and I have never hit my irons any better. I always had a problem getting back to my left foot on the follow through and had alot of miss hits, if I had to guess it would be 60%-40% miss hits to solid contact. I also used to try and pinch the ball like you read in every golf magazine out there and 8 time out of 10 I would hit the ball really fat. With this I’ve been able to keep the weight on my front foot and start taking divots 8 times out of 10 perfect. I recently went to the golf range with my neighbor who played on the NIKE Tour and he gave me a pointer about shifting my weight so I tried it. The miss hits came back just like before ,so I am going back to the S&T the next time I play which will be tomorrow!
Now I am in week 5 with the S&T and have some mixed results but the positive is outweighing the negative.
I had a great 3 days of driving the ball (hitting about 85% of fairways) and less accurate with the irons to the green. (Too many pushes). I then tried to activate the accumulators by pushing my hands away from the right shoulder in the beginning of the downswing and I hit many more greens.
Yesterday on the range I was trying to visualize the video’s of the S&T golfers swings that I have seen on youtube, instead of thinking of all the parts of the S&T swing. After I got stacked on my backswing I tried to just turn my shoulders around my spine (keeping my head still) without any other thoughts. It went really well with just that thought on the range. Today or tomorrow I will see if it works on the course.
Hello Frustrated–Try the next 2 DVD’s and note the “flying wedge” section and the short game one. My “shanks” have come from NOT turning my shoulders throught the shot and just using an arm swing. You have to turn the upper body if you keep the “flying wedge” past impact and into the follow through. Sometimes what seems to be a “shank” is really a club that has not closed at impact and that also relates to an arm swing. Good luck. I have been using the S & T for a year and am still finding out things about it.
Can anyone explain me why I get better results with S&T if I use a more flat stance and plane (more rotational) -with the ball a bit further from me in the address- than if I use a more upright stance?.
With a flatter stance I get more solid contact and much distance. Thanks in advance
hanon:
It has to do with the plane of the swing. The SAT is a one plane swing more like a baseball swing with the club in plane with the shoulders and more bent over. The two plane swing brings the club head more away from the target than inside and raises the hands higher in the backswing. Therefore, one stands closer to the ball on a two plane swing.
The one plane is a body swing and squares the club face with the body. The two plane is more of an arms and hands swing which squares the club face. The first move down in the two plane swing must drop the left elbow into the right pocket to get the club inside were the one plane swing has been all along.
sorry – I meant right elbow into right pocket.
I am using the S&T and have seen a great improvement in my ball striking. I have to guard against loosing my drives to the right, but even my misses are better. As far as the swing being hard on the back, I have battled a bad back for over 35 years and find that this swing is much easier on my back and left hip that the traditional swing.
Further update. After using the SaT for 30 days I am very pleased. Shot rounds of 74 and 73 today, with the best ball striking I have ever experienced. Birdied the last 3 holes on the round of 73. Hitting on all cylinders right now. Main swing thought is in working the knees like Eric Axley (watch youtube video for further explanation and watch his knees work, this action allows the club to get on the proper swing plan). When this doesn’t happen the club picks up and my weight starts shifting back instead of stacking. When the right knee straightens out it allows the hips to make a complete turn and keeps the club on the inside. Main thoughts right now… 1- work knees, 2 – stay through shot, 3 – get good extension.
I too have been having very real success with the S&T after about 5 weeks. My handicap is 9 but it will come down if I keep on with what I have been doing.
My swing thoughts are taking the club back inside. ( I had let it get too far outside and too long)
I then think about pushing my hips forward all the way through the downswing. I hardly ever pull the ball and either hit it straight or sometimes a slight push.
I feel that I have found a swing that I can take to a tournament.
I would like to add my two cents to this thread as well . My handicap ,at its lowest has been 9.3 and now its up to a 12 ( due to lack of play ) . I have tried and read most everything thing there is on the golf swing ..You name the gimmic and I probably have it . When the article first came out , I tried the method and it seemed to work ( I shot even par for 9 holes a few time s and broke 80 on a several occasions . I must admit I did drift away from stack and tilt when I began pulling my shots . Due to my horrible play of late ( which I attribute in part to my lack of play) I have gone back to the Stack and Tilt method . My scores have come down significantly the past few times out , I have shot in the low 80’s …With this turn around in my scores I opted to order the DVD’s hoping I would gain more info on the technique . I should have them in a day or two . I have my club championship coming up on 8/9 and 8/10 and the best I have ever done is tied for 3rd . My club ball contact with my irons is terrific ..I have not attempted the technique with my driver as I drive the ball pretty well .
I am hoping the DVD’s will be more informational than the article in GD. I will repost after my club championship . I plan on sticking with this method this time .
Just curious to see if anyone has tried the stack-n-tilt principles using Gary Edwin’s reverse K setup. I was experimenting today hitting some balls at lunch and tried getting into Gary Edwin’s right sided setup, then trying to maintain stack-n-tilt’s flying wedge and starting the downswing by trying to extend the hands away from the right shoulder and actually hit the ball really well. I’ve always had a problem of my upper body getting ahead of the ball on the downswing and swing being too steep. Setting up with Gary Edwin’s method, allows me to still have most of my weight on the left side, but with the upper body set behind the ball.
Summary of basic S&T foundations told directly by Mike Bennett in a video interview:
As promised , in my last post , i indicated that I would let everyone know how i did in my recent club championship using the S&T . I did not fair well at all ….did not even break 90 , but I really cannot blame S&T for my poor play . I did hit my irons as crisply as I ever had and that was where I was employing S&T mostly . I had resumed S&T only a couple of weeks prior to the Club Championship and really did not practice enough due to other things going on in my life . I find it much easier to adopt the swing with my shorter irons (7-wedges) . I find myself still swaying to the right with the longer clubs ( 6-driver) .
So essentially , I was using 2 separate swings this weekend S&T on my shorter irons and my conventional swing for everyting else , and my scores ( which are to embarrasing to share ) are in indication of that .
So , with that said , I am going to stick with the S&T and try to stop the swaying and incorporate more body turn back and through the ball . Unfortunatly , the dvd’s really do not give you any drills to work on …they just go into extensive detail of the S&T swing . So if anyone has any suggestions on drills to keep me centered over the ball ..please let me know
I have been playing for about 4 years have take several lessions, practiced regularly and never seemed to improve. So I was ready to try anything to improve. Read both articles in Golf Digest, practiced for about two months. My handicap was a 22 in June and after the last update 8 Aug, I am currently an 18 index. It works plain and simple. Still struggle with the driver but it will come around and I think I will be around a 15 when the driver comes onboard.
I am a self-taught golfer (9 handicap) and the stack and tilt came around not by reading the magazines but simply through learning to hit low running shots through the trees because I wasn’t in the fairway enough!
Because of this shot that I could pull off any time with a nice draw I started using it from fairway and off the tee and my scores started dropping. It is very easy to get good contact with the method because it feels so compact.
2 or 3 things to note. I used to hit my driver very high and I started using this method to keep the ball down and it works.
I used to be able to hit a fade and now struggle with it as the around the body movement tends to produce a draw… or a hook if you don’t get your hips moving quickly enough. If I need to hit a fade now I have to go back to the classic method, which is a bit counter-productive, so I try and stay with the stack and tilt.
Finally, on shorter irons the method works well, but on longer irons you still need to consciously take the iron away wide or you come back into the ball very steep.
Hi.. I’m a 5 handicap player. I played with a 0 Sunday who has adopted the stack and tilt or tilta whirl, or lock and block… or whatever you call it… I decided to try it.. with no other thought than keeping my weight on my left side throughout the swing and turning through the ball. I had instant success.. I shot 71 yesterday on a fairly difficult course. I played in a scramble today and hit a lot of really good shots… although I hit a couple bad shots, too. I really believe that ball contact is the secret to lower scores and the s-t swing certainly promotes it. I’m pretty happy with my newfound success… we’ll see if it continues..
RP
Just finished Utley’s book and the principles are the same. Chipped in twice last friday for birdies.
Yes, Utley´s method for short game has the same principles as S&T: weight in the left leg, pivot around the left leg, small tilt of the spine to the left and path around the body
I haven´t practiced it a lot yet , but for now I can say that it is very simple and gives good and reliable results. You fell really the ball compression even in the short chips!!. This is a video about his chipping method:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzS_HwzChaA
The pitching method is even more similar to S&T: in fact is a small S&T -weight in the left, pivoting around the left leg and releasing the club in the impact zone-.
Even in his bunker method he puts his weight in the left side.
Hope be useful
I’m like a lot of you in that I apply some of the S & T theory but not the whole thing. I started the year at an 11.3 and I’m currently 9.7. Not bad improvement for a lifelong golfer. The basic thing that I took away from the S&T philosophy was the limited shift to the right.
I also got to the point that my ‘miss’ is a hook. I can’t intentionally slice any more without reverting to the old swing and that never works very well!
Crisper contact with my divot now after the ball as it should be.
Overall I’m very happy with my game. If I keep my drives in play I usually get a par or better on the hole. If not then any number is in play.
For the ones who have had alot of success with the S&T. Can you sortof put it in laymen’s terms on how you start the backswing and downswing? Thanks.
Frustrated: I haven’t looked at the DVDs or spent a lot of time analyzing the S&T method. I may not be doing it the “correct” way, but what I do has been working consistently for me.
I set up with my weight *slightly* favoring my forward leg (irons only; with driver I’m centered).
I take the club back smoothly, paying attention to a couple of things. (1) As my hips turn back, my forward knee moves forward, and my rear knee straightens somewhat, so that my hips move freely, a kind of “turntable” feeling of the hips. This keeps the hands and club moving back to the inside, as they should. (2) My rear (right) foot contact on the ground stays “light.” Although there is some weight on that foot, at no point do I feel that I’m pushing against it on the backswing. With a conventional swing, I’d feel weight transferring to the inside edge (on a good day, otherwise the outside edge) of the rear foot. With this swing I stay stacked on the forward foot.
It’s a compact swing. I don’t need to try for a huge backswing to generate power, because ball contact is so good I get the distance I want anyway.
As for the downswing, since the weight is already forward, there is no need to do any sort of forward weight shift. The hips just turn back and around toward the target and the swing uncoils and the club head whips through the impact zone, striking down into the ball. Keep the spine inclination angle constant. The S&T swing is very consistent with the old “swing in a barrel” advice. It feels compact and rotational, because it is.
Again, this is my simple-minded version of it. Others, who have studied the DVDs, may want to correct what I say. But this works well for me.
Frustrated–adding to FM with whom I agree, I do have the DVD’s and they are worthwhile. I started paying attention to the “accentuators” (sp?) especially the “flying wedge” and straightening the right arm through impact and suddenly generated a lot more power even though it usually results in a shorter follow through from a less hurried swing. As shown in the DVD, during the take away and to the complete backswing the shoulders are not level–but are at a much steeper angle. Last week I saw on TV a slow motion of the swing of one of the pros and as the commentators pointed out saw his shoulders move from a more or less level line on the back swing to a steeper angle on the swing (similar to the S & T position throughout,) so I decided to try it. When I do it smoothly in the swing, it counter acts the tendency to hook and produces a gentle draw. Also, a gentle use of the right arm bend and straighten gives me a crisp, easy chipping contact.
When I saw the article on GD I read it several times and went to the driving range to try it but nothing positive came out of it. I guessed I did not get it. Two weeks ago I revisited it again and read forums about S & T. I noticed majority of those who tried it have something positive to say about it. I read the article again and took note of the tips posted and went back to the range. This time something good happened but also some bad ones. The bad ones are caused by clubhead being ‘too closed ‘ at the top of the backswing having my right palm facing the ground and severly closed at impact. The start of the backswing is a one-piece-takeaway is’nt it ? Conventionally, when you have your arms parallel to the ground the toe of the clubhead faces upward, is it the same in S & T ? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
It has been a couple of weeks since my atrocious showing at my club championship and after much analysis , and another couple of rounds using the S&T ( for my irons only ) I have come to a couple of conclusions …1). If I am in the fairway and have an Iron in my hands , I use the S&T and have had huge success ( shot a 35 even par for nine on the tougher 9 at my home course) . 2). I still have to get my tee ball in play …when it is in play , my greens in reulation soar ( which I attribute to the S&T method which leads to much more solid iron contact and 3)…I intend on sticking w the S&T method …The whole idea behing the golf swing is to get your weight on and thru your left side at contact …The S&T setup does that for u b/4 you even take the club back …Your comments ,suggestions r welcome
I have been using the S&T for about one year. Like most of you, my irons are much better (even the long ones) because I am stiking down on the ball and taking the divot in front of the ball. Because I am using the S&T with the woods, I have gotten way off on my consistancy with them because I do not want to take a divot but sweep the ground. I know that I have to work on my balance and finish with the woods. I will update when I accomplish this.
In a nutshell..Backswing Shoulder down,hands in weight forward..Downswing Arms straight, Tuck rearend under torso.
My drives have really improved since I have managed to keep the flying wedge(right wrist angle) through impact with straight arms while swinging in a circle..Good Luck
First day using SAT was yesterday at the range. Read the GD articles and took the Pocket Tips to the range. After taking monster divots behind the ball on the first few tries, I adjusted by crushing the can with the left foot. BINGO! Misses were 10-15 yard fades, but no more hooks. Much better compression and almost every divot was after the ball. Hit a few thin shots, but overall I was very pleased. Distance gain was amazing – my 9 iron is usually 145, but it was flying 155-160.
I could also dial in my misses much more quickly….draws/hooks were the result of not being properly stacked and fades/slices were the result of not exploding up during impact.
With the driver the advice of other posters of choking up helped immensely. Still stuggling with the three wood, but I hope to work that out today at the range.
I’m a 7 index and I got the DVD’s and have had 3 driving range sessions so far with nice results. Yesterday I grabbed a cart by myself and took it to the course. Irons were really solid. On the driver, I think they do a poor job of explaining how to hit it on the DVD. I see on some pictures that they have moved the ball forward as should be the case with a driver IMO. But on the DVD, they advocate that ball position should be the same regardless of the club. Anyway, I used the still head/shoulder rotation part of SAT and just let the rest come natural. Moved the ball forward a couple of inches. This worked very well for me and I feel it was basically the same swing as with the irons.
Any thoughts on SAT and the driver as far as your experiences? Thanks!
Stack & Tilt is what I basically used as a youngster and some Professional clown told me to shift my weight to the right. I have struggled with my game since ! Now I have found a great coach at La Cala Spain. He put me back on track with getting the weight forward I was hitting it like I did when I was a youngster in twenty minutes! Needless to say i’m hooked and will recommend this method which is a very natural way to swing a golf club and rediscover that the game can be fun again.
I retired @ 64 two years ago and started playing golf twice weekly. I took lessons and established a 26 handicap 6 months ago. I have lowered my handicap 1 stroke per month until August. I regularly score in the low 90’s but no lower. I saw the Golf Chanel commercials about S&T and started surfing every S&T website I could find. I took no instructions nor did I buy anything but started to alter my swing to migrate into S&T. First two rounds I committed to S&T were ugly but I continued to try to make a real effort. This week I really tried to keep my head still and rotate around my core with a moderate swing. I shot 81. I had 8 GIR’s and 8 fairways. The others were only a few yards off the fairway. My mis-hits ended up OK. I am convinced and can’t wait until Thursday to play again.
I’m sure you are correct move the ball position slightly more forward to the left in your stance for the driver or woods and if it works stick with it best of luck !
Tom
I finally got the DVDs, a birthday gift.
First point: These DVDs are about the worst instructional videos I’ve ever seen. Don’t get me wrong; I think the S&T method is very good, and it has knocked about 9 strokes off my game. But the videos are terrible. They are stupefyingly repetitious, and consist mostly of Mike Bennett holding static poses while Andy Plummer lectures. In four DVDs we see *very* few golf balls actually struck at normal tempo. And the important question of how and whether the driver swing or setup should be different is neglected. In any case, almost all of the material presented is about irons.
Second point: I think the S&T must be slightly modified to work with the driver. In particular, I think the 55-45 forward weighting at setup is counterproductive; 50-50 is better.
I’m no swing expert, but this is what has worked for me, and I think it makes good sense, too.
From the very beginning of the DVDs, Bennett and Plummer make the point that one of the true fundamentals of the golf swing is for the club to contact the ground after the ball, which means that the lowest point of the swing arc should be in front of the ball. This is fundamental because the irons should contact the ball on a downward trajectory. The slight forward weighting at setup helps to achieve this.
As others have pointed out in this thread, this fundamental doesn’t apply to hitting a teed ball with the driver. In this case, we *don’t* want the low part of the swing arc in front of the ball, and we don’t want to contact the ball on a downward trajectory. Instead, we want to contact the ball on a level (tangent to the ground) trajectory, or slightly upward, depending on the ball flight we want. Therefore, it makes no sense to setup with the weight shifted forward.
We still want to avoid shifting the weight back, however, so the rest of the S&T remains: turn the hips but keep their angle of inclination; keep the spine angle of inclination, and tilt as the spine turns to do so.
It took me a while to figure out the driver, and I still sometimes slip and set up as if it were an iron, with ugly results. But when I can keep it in my mind just to keep my weight centered at setup, and no weight shift to the back, and of course not to swing too hard, I get some *really* nice drives with contact right on the sweet spot, the kind of drives that go far with what looks like a lazy swing.
The dvd’s are returnable
Hi All
Just wondered whether anyone else has had same dilemna as me.
The stack and tilt method has absolutely revolutionised my irons, just great but I have been suffering some back pain.
Yes it could be co incidence but I never had pain before so just wondered if anyone else had experienced same because i dont want to give up S&T but dont want the back trouble either.
Whatever, there really is something to this technique albeit driver more difficult as per previous posts.
I have had back problems for years but the S & T has actually helped. Make sure there is no tilting to the right during your swing or you will experience back problems . Weight must stay left throughout with no dipping of right side. Ball position is important with the driver make sure it is forward of centre near the left heel and you should be ok. Otherwise experiment with ball position at the range to see what suits you best. Farther forward higher ball flight. Best of Luck.
I am in my early 60’s. Been playing golf for 40 years. Self taught S & T from golf digest web site last winter. Handicap was 13 before S & T. Now it’s an 8. Basically, the S & T is a left leg pivot and it works very good for irons. My drives – mostly straight or with a little draw – are almost always in play (this is a good thing), but I wasn’t getting the distance I thought I should. I averaged 220 yds, with some up to 240 yds. Recently, I saw a video where the teacher (from California, of course) was advocating S & T for irons but a pivot using right (back) leg for drivers. When I tried this on the driving range I immediately picked up an extra 20 to 40 yds on my drive. I’m not a teacher so I can’t explain the swing other than you start off with you weight on the inside of your right leg and keep it there for the whole swing. It feels more powerful than the S & T left leg pivot and the drives are significantly longer and higher.
I’d be interested to know if anybody else has tried this and what their results were.
My wife says I am a swing junkie.Every 6 months or so I try a new swing.After receiving the S&T dvds I gave it an honest shot.If you have the time and really get into the technical aspects of the S&T it can really help with your ball striking.Personally,I am going to return to the swing that for me is a lot easier to incorporate and results are immediate.The 4 magic moves by Andy Brown is where its at for me.I always tell my wife to not let me try something new.When my swing is off she says “are you still doin Andy Brown”? Usually I’m expermenting with some new and supposedly better idea..ha I think there is a review somewhere on this site for it..
Bob,
I think you are referring to this method:
http://www.rdbgolftips.com/rdbstack.htm It is similar to stack and tilt except for the driver where it is said to concentrate in the right leg ( in other video into this site)
By the way Rookat, Andy Brown is a scam artist. His ebook is just a copy word by word of the old book “Four magic Moves to Winning Golf” (by Joe Dante). He hasn´t change any word but he is getting much money without doing anything else
One question for everyone: Is there any chance that this move could be applied to S&T?? I know it is based on “controlled” weight shift swings -Hogan-. But I think it may help to feel the right leg braced instead of moving it too easily -which, I think, can reduce the power of the shot. It will do a more quicker transition with more acceleration:
I have read all of these threads and clearly the jury is in. The S&T works for the most part. I am surprised that I saw no references to Iron Byron and the similarity of mechanics and physics used in this machine. Clearly, the ball is centered, the the swing plane is more or less to the inside and the downswing is simple and through. This is the standard to test balls and clubs. No lower part moves, no complex weight shift and timing. Just a nice smooth back and through. My observation so far is that this swing works. I have fiddled with my swing for over 20 years always trying to immulate some successful pro. Whether it was Freddie, Ernie or Tiger I just could not mimic them and of course each year I got a little older. My most solid ball striking occurs when I go back to my Hogan type swing keeping my right elbow close to my body on the back swing and rotating through with my shoulders. Unfortunately, I am only using half of my power sources. With the S&T method I find I am using it all. The torque of my straight left arm on the backswing. The clearing of my hips and whipping action down the line effortless of my clubhead through the ball with a beautiful finish which I never did before. Back pain was constant but no more. I believe this swing added years to my game and perhaps my body. Lastly, as a person who would agonize over every shot with a thousand thoughts racing through his mind. It is now down to a few pre-downswing. Once I am in motion downward there is no time to think it is automatic.
So, for some reason I bumped across this article earlier today. I’ve seen enough PGA coverage this year to understand the basic concept of keeping the weight forward and the rest of the S&T fundamentals.
I’ve always (15+ years) had a draw/hook action and a very inside takeaway. In the last few years it has been more pronounced as I have less practice time and more children. I also hit the ball really high – I play original Ping Eye2 irons which contribute to that phenomenon.
I ran out to the range and hit a bucket on grass. The first 20 shots were all blades – I just couldn’t get “down” into the ball. Once I kept focusing on keeping the weight forward the shots started coming. And they were scary good! When I hit a good shot, it was laser like in accuracy with just barely a draw. The roping draw/hook was finally cured! Results were just as good with a wedge or 3 iron.
As for the driver issue except for the first few balls I had no problem. The more I felt like I was stacking and tilting the more boring the trajectory and a “popping” of the ball off the clubface. The best part was looking at the driver face after I was done. All marks were dead center – not one “miss hit” on the outer zones of the face. I was dumbfounded. I have always had a flatter swing and the ball traditionally kind of far away from myself so I have a feeling that is how I can clear the hips in S&T fashion, yet keep a pseudo-sweeping motion as a driver should have.
Playing in a scramble on Monday. That will be a load of fun with less pressure to perform than a traditional stroke round.
Thanks to whomever posted that the TPI facility in Portland has S&T instructors! 🙂
I think that S&T is a great thing to try out if you’re having issues with poor weight shift or hitting shots fat. As those were my two problems when mis-hitting shots, I decided to give S&T a try about a month ago.
My bottom line: I’m hitting my irons more solidly that I ever have — beautiful trajectory, with amazing spin — and use a club less on all shots.
I have found that I can’t use the “textbook” Stack and Tilt for my Driver, as I seem to come in too steep — and it’s not worth it for me to REALLY work at revamping that swing, as I already hit my woods fairly well. One side benefit, however, is that the S&T principles caused me to be more steady over the ball even when (slightlty) shifting weight for the woods, resulting in better contact.
All in all, I’m enjoying my game more than I ever have, and I feel like my swing is smoother. If my swing goes off, I think of two keys — is my weight staying forward, and am I stacked over the ball — and everything else falls in place.
I just MIGHT be able to get my son interested in golf again with Stack and Tilt… 😉
Iwent to the driving range this weekend and worked out the woods problem that I have been having with the S&T. I am still using the S&T but my swing thoughts are to bring the club further inside, position the ball forward, swing through at a more level position and down the line, and get a full finish. I am no longer thinking of getting my butt under my torso but I ain’t looking at myself so I do not know. I am starting with the weight 50/50 and tilting forward from there.
I played 18 holes on a par 72. The front 9 was terrible for me because of mental errors and poor putting. The second nine was very good. I ended up with 45 – 39, with ten fairways and ten greens in regulation which is good for me.
I have found that once you stack and favor your weight to the front foot (left for right handers) that the tilt part is something you really don’t need to think about. It’s more of a reaction because if you follow the backswing routine (shoulders around head, head still, club and hands on inward path), then to return to the ball you have to tilt. Just my opinion that if you try to force the standing up at the end it will not be natural. Nothing works like video tape or a mirror.
JMO.
Bill
I went back to the driving range and tried S&T again. This time I was hitting the ball solid and straight but not gaining more distance. I used mostly my irons. I am wondering if I am doing it right so can you please give comments and advice or tips.
Here’s my setup and swing with a 7 iron:
I setup with ball at the middle of my stance. The weight is more on my left side (right handed). One piece take-away with the club and arms going around my body while the body is rotating on an axis. Meanwhile the right leg is straightening and the left leg bending and left shoulder dipping towards the ball or target line putting more weight on the left side.. There is no manipulation of the hands, no rotation.
On the downswing, the club, arms and right shoulder rotates around the body and the body rotating on an axis and the upper right arm closed to the body. Again no manipulation of hands. After impact the arms continue rotating and left leg straightening and the body facing the target.
Any comments is greatly appreciated.
Golf-fore: If you can hit more greens in regulation, who cares if you do not get more distance. You end up with more distance just by hitting the ball straighter anyway.
Would like to hear from anyone regarding this swing vs. conventional with regards to weight shift/ hip clearance. Personally, I have tried every drill know to mankind and I can’t seem to clear my hips/ shift my weight on the downswing properly. Those of you that have adopted this swing, would you say that it would help with this problem? Thanks.
Well, I’m still muttering along, trying to finally get ahold on this stack-n-tilt stuff. I just wanted to maybe run some stuff by you all and see if I’m on the right track. When I first started I was shanking them all over the map. Today at lunch, I went out to a field behind work to try some things to maybe get a grasp of this swing. I concentrated on getting my weight on my target side and while maintaining the flying wedge (rght wrist angle)throughtout the swing, I just mainly turned my upper body back and thru and was able to at least hit some decent shots. Should I be concentrating on just moving the upper body or am I way off base. Thanks for your help.
Frustrated – I have read the articles and bought the DVDs. One thing I got out of the DVDs is that your weight not only shifts left during the backswing, but also that the weight should continue to shift left on the downswing. So my swing thoughts are ILL – Inside, Left and Left. Hands Inside, Shift left on backswing and shift left on downswing. I understand the concept of the flying wedge, but I am trying to keep my hands and thoughts of my hands out of the equation.
I have seen many information about how to execute the swing. Now I want to summarize which are the FUNDAMENTALS that Plummer and Bennett describe for the S&T in the first DVD. According to their explanation, the three fundamentals of every good player are not the grip, stance, alignment, ball position… Every good player has a different one and all of them can play perfectly. The THREE FUNDAMENTALS for a good swing are:
1 – Hit the ground in the same spot every time
2 – Hit the ball with enough power
3 – Control the curvature of the ball
1// HIT THE GROUND IN THE SAME SPOT (ahead of the ball)
Tip 1 –> Keep the weight forward.
Tip 2 –> Use the Flying Wedge (the angle of the right hand and forearm) to control the circumference of the swing. This is the same as keeping the hands ahead of the club at address and the same at impact position.
2// HIT THE BALL WITH ENOUGH POWER
Tip 1 –> Hands path: move the arms inward (20º inside).
Tip 2 –> Increase wrist angle in the backswing to add power.
Tip 3 –> Turn your shoulder in a circle and keep the head still.
3// CONTROLLING THE CURVATURE OF THE BALL
Tip 1 –> The curvature depends on where the weight is in relation to the ball position. There is a clear difference if the club hits the ball before or after the point of tangency of the circle:
a) Weight forward: the club hits the ball from the inside before reaching the point of tangency –> Draw or Push.
b) Weigh backward: the club hits the ball on the forward side of the circle cutting across the ball –> Slice or Pull.
Tip 2 –> The ball´s curve is controlled by the angle of the face in relation with the path of the club.
———————————————————–
I want to add a video where they tell some of these ideas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4_YepJ3wSs
I have been surprised after viewing the DVD because in no place there was told anything about keeping the flying wedge all over the swing. Even, they think is one of the 2 most important pieces of this swing!! and it was not commented in the GD articles neither in any internet site ¿¿??
I have found this site with a good summary of the DVDs and explanation of keeping the “flying wedge†all over the swing:
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175425&st=0&p=1156714&#entry1156714
Basically what they explain is that keeping the flying wedge -or keeping the hands ahead of the club till impact- ( not breaking the right wrist angle with the forearm ) avoid casting the club and this way the radius of the swing is maintained constant from address to impact . This a fundamental piece to hit the ground in the same spot every time.
If you don´t keep the flying wedge your radius increases as consequence of casting the club; and you will hit the ground before the ball.
I switched for a couple of reasons, but the main reason was because of my back. I switched in June and my back has not been in pain yet. I used to pop a couple of Advil every time I played. I can hit 300 balls a day and be fine the next morning.
I used to watch Jack Nicklaus and try and copy his swing as kid. Some people remember Jack Nicklaus My Way videos. That’s how I learned the swing, well was till this guy named Tiger comes a long and changes the way everybody swings. Don’t lift the left leg and straighten the right leg. So I spent the money on a coach that teaches some high profile women on tour. He is friends with Butch Harmon and taught basically the same swing. I did get to a +3.5 ghin with him.
Even though I was playing well, I couldn’t hit the amount of balls to be great because of my back. So when I heard about this swing I said this swing looks like what I did as a kid.
I found out that the first time out is great then it’s a struggle the next few times out. You have to give any swing change a long time to kick in. People say it’s about 2-3,00 balls for 1 change in a swing. I bought the DVDs and love them. Every time I hit a bad shot now I know why. A must get if you make the change.
I got the chance to watch Aarron Baddeley and ask him some questions about his swing and I am now convinced it’s the right swing for me. You don’t lose distance at all his 7 iron goes 176yds thats long enough for me.
I’ve been trying Stack & Tilt for a few weeks now. It made sense to me to try, since my chipping and pitching has improved this year due to keeping my weight on my left side, which produces nice, crisp chips and pitches. I started with a couple of sessions at the range with mostly wedges and short irons. I was getting nice ball flight and solid shots. The misses were a hook, which I could tone down by weakening my grip a little bit. Overall, the misses were a lot more acceptable than with my traditional swing. I’ve noticed maybe a half a club increase in irons distance with S&T. I played my first round last weekend using S&T with mixed results. I was hitting more greens, but not in regulation due to struggling off the tee. My biggest challenge will be to engrain a setup and preshot routine without giving it too much thought. After years of honing a preshot routine and subconciously being able to get into a good setup, I’m finding myself abandoning simple things like alignment and a consistent routine, since I’m focusing so much on S&T swing thoughts. Also, until I groove a reliable driver swing with S&T, I’m forced to use my old swing, and conflicting swing thoughts on the tee might be a tough thing to overcome in the short term.
So if anyone has had any success in limiting preshot swing thoughts to one or two simple things, I would love to hear it. Overall, I’m sticking with it, because I really think once it becomes routine I’ll be able to experience improvement- which is something I wasn’t doing with my old swing.
Darrin……so what questions did you ask Aarron and what was his replies? I love his swing and he makes it look effortless. THanks.
Darrin,
Do you make adjustments for your long irons, driver? I have trouble using this swing with those clubs.
I asked Aarron how he controlled his ball flight. He said, he moves the ball either 1 inch up or 1 inch back and uses his finish either high or low on his follow through. He showed me and it makes sense. It looked like his ball position for a normal shot was just left of center. Another question was how do you fade the ball since it’s a draw swing. He said, to open the feet a little more and keep the club face at the target and swing a long the toe line. I tried it and you really have to open up your stance and keep the hands quiet.
Some of the main things he said were to stay centered over the ball and not move the head back. Also work on alignment. He also practices a lot of 3 quarter shots.
His ball position for all the irons were the same, and he played the driver inside of the left heel. I find the long irons easy to hit if I don’t roll the hands over. This seems to be the key to the swing besides keeping your weight centered and moving forward. I also try to make sure I don’t get too long on my back swing with the long clubs.
I video taped some of his swings and his thoughts and if I can remember any thing else I’ll post.
All four of the guys did go on to say that most pros use some sort of stack and tilt in their swing. I would say they meant the short irons.
After 20 years of inconsistant golf,( lowest gross of 70, highest gross of 92 in the last two years) I decided to purchased the lessons in DVD format.
I watched all of the dvd’s and paid close attention to every detail for one week (no range work).
At the end of the week I went out and, before my round, I hit about 15 balls at the range, none with the driver, following the stack and tilt concept.
My score that day at the Doral’s White course here in Miami was a 76. I contacted the ball crispier that ever before. No more left or right mishits with the driver.
Now, one month later, I have gained 30-40 additional yards with the driver and I am hitting the most straighter and powerful shots ever with the irons. My distance with a three item has increased by 30 yards and I can easily reach a 220 yard par three without the use of a fairway wood.
This is an exceptional system. You just have to UNDERSTAND IT and get the FEEL of the tilt in the back swing. Once you do, you become a totally different golfer.
I am consistently scoring in the middle 70’s without having to scramble to do so.
Get the DVD, understand it, get the FEEL for the tilt. Be patient and watch it several times before you take your swing to the range. It makes a lot os sense.
You will shock your golfing buddies.
PS. Practicing the stack and tilt with a “heavy club” like those advertized accelerates your progress noticeably.
I totally disagree. If you learn the proper sequence and commit to it, there is no reasonable reason why it would only be a temporary improvement.
I committed to it and I am a totally different caliber of golfer because of it. when I go to the course now, I KNOW I am going to challenge my previous score and I always have an opportunity to beat it because I have grooved a repeated swing.
Scores of 76, 77, 81, 78 and 75 in successive weeks have made me a believer. I was averaging in the low 80’s before and having to scramble for my better scores. I am now hitting the cover off the ball with the driver and hitting three times as many greens as before.
What are everyone’s swing keys for initiating the downswing in the S&T? Hips, straightening the right arm etc…..Thanks.
I am currently playing to a 3 handicap, 63 years old and have played golf all my life. I borrowed the S&T dvd’s from a friend and watched them all then went to the range. Like a lot of the previous comments I began making solid contact and the swing felt much more comfortable and my distance across all my clubs lengthened.
I think there are a couple of reasons for this… (1) when I began learning golf back in the 60’s I was taught to slide the hips through the ball on the downswing… now of course the method is to turn so with the S&T I’m back where I grew up in golf (and was a scratch player). (2) After working with and doing extensive video analysis of my swing some of the faults I’m fighting to correct are actually a part of the S&T, picking the club up going back, sliding the hips, and not needing to have the rigid posture at address.
All in all I am striking the ball much better, have more distance, and am able to move the ball much easier and more consistently and just feel more relaxed… thanx.
I love the swing. Hitting irons long and at the target. Driver took some time, now very good. At first was tough on my back too much trust with the hips and big reverse C. I am chiropractor so was able to get under control quick.
I just started the S&T about 2 months ago. I’m a junior but as a taller play (pushing 6 feet now) it has worked for me. I always had a really high ball flight and a pretty consistant slice with my driver. With the S&T my irons are going about 10 to 15 yards further and with a much lower flight. My driver still has a little fade on it but has a lower flight. All and all much better.
I’ve found that my biggest problem is simply thinking about my shot too much that i forget the S&T. It has knocked about 6 strokes off so I’m very happy.
Specifically on the downswing, should you feel your left hip turn, tilt up, or thrust your right hip forward etc….thanks.
Hips should slide forward during the downswing. If not then the ball will be hit fat.
I read the article in Golf Digest and decided to give it a try. It felt awkward, but I continued with it. After a month I purchased the instructional DVD and began training with the Stack and Tilt method. Each time I reviewed the DVD I picked up something new and incorporated it into my swing. I’ve been using a 12 degree Ping G10 driver and hitting it high, but not very far. After using the stack and tilt method I’m driving it lower with a boring trajectory and getting 25-30 more distance. My irons are coming off hotter with a more boring trajectory as well. I love the Stack and Tilt method because I’ve had difficulty getting weight back over to my front side, but not anymore. Pressuring the golf ball is made easier when the swing centers are in front of the ball coming through impact. I have helped my fellow players with their ball striking because I can see how their swing centers are moving all around and preventing them from playing their best golf. I highly recommend the S&T for those players who have trouble making pure contact with desired trajectory and accuracy. When I blow a shot I know exactly what I did wrong and identifying “cause and effect” will accelerate your learning curve. The article isn’t enough. The DVD goes deeper into the S&T method and the instruction is precise and easy to understand. It will open your mind to the true fundamentals of golf and that is the beginning to playing good golf for the rest of your life. I have thrown all other intructional material away. It has a residual benefit as well. My wife is happy that I removed all those magazines out of our den. My next purchase will be a lower lofted driver. Good luck with S&T
Like many others I found the dramatic and instant improvement in my swing, or more importantly, my ball contact, made the S&T worth pursuing. I suspect one of the reasons I have had success is that my errors were those from coming from the inside, i.e. blocks and hooks… and fat shots. Because I have fought with a bit of a reverse pivot most of my golfing life changing to the S&T seemed very intuitive.
With the S&T I don’t hook or push the ball as often or as dramatically, and fat shots have virtually disappeared. I can’t tell you which part of my game has seen the biggest improvement, but the S&T has lowered the launch angle of my drives considerably, my long irons and hybrids are making very solid contact, and my full to 3/4 swing wedge play is really solid. I do not seem to have slipped back into old swing habits, but I do have to be careful not to overdo the initial weight shift and get started in front of ‘center’.
My biggest concern is adapting the new swing to less than optimal conditions like uphill, downhill, or sidehill lies. With my traditional swing I knew instinctively how to adjust, but with the S&T I have no clue what to do… yet!! But, I would appreciate any advice anyone might have.
Swing thought for SAT: Rotation most stable and balanced around single point (pivot). Since we have two feet (pivots) traditional approach is to use rear foot as pivot for backswing (weight shift to rear) and use front foot as pivot for throughswing (weight shift forward). For SAT use just the front foot as base of rotation back and through swings. The rear foot’s feelings aren’t hurt a bit. With just focusing on pivoting, turning, rotating or whatever over the arch of the left foot seems to automatically take care of the tilt and variable amount of weight shift on the front foot as set forth in the article, at least for me. In fact I find the swing takes care of itself. Just imagine that you can rotate effectively only over a single pivot point and that you have selected the front foot as that point. Hope it works
While trying to learn the S&T, I’ve had the tendancy to shank the living heck out of the ball. Has anyone ran into this as well and know what I might be doing wrong and how to fix it? Thanks.
Another classic golf champion, maybe the greatest, against the weight shift. Extract from “Bobby Jones on Golf”, Chapter 3 :
“Shifting the Weight:
It is my define opinion that there need be no shifting of weight from the left foot to right during the backstroke. I have examined numbers of photographs of the very best players and I have been able to find no case in which such a shifting was perceptible; but there should occur during the hitting stroke a pronounced shift from right to left…”
It seems to me that old swing theories have never advocated any weight shift to the back foot. The weight shifting appeared in the second half of the 20th century. Look some videos of Booby Jones swinging:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5XeiFcLyGw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDmZVQk3Z9M
I have a kind of theory that maybe someone in this forum want to discuss: My opinion is that the weight shifting theory started in the moment that golfers began to stop lifting the left heel during the backswing. All great classic Masters ( Bobby Jones, Tommy Armour, Ernest Jones) have never advocate a weight shift to the right leg because for them it´s was quite easy to get stacked if they rise the left heel (see in the videos how Bobby Jones was almost stacked ala S&T). After that, the idea of maintaining the left foot in the ground became popular, it was much more difficult to turn the hips and reach the top because now the body was not so flexible as before, and thus the easy way to swing the club was by moving the weight back and forth. And therefore the weight shift started to be more and more popular. Opinions?
S&T is a method which avoid shifting the weight at the same time that it doesn´t need to lift the left heel.
I find it interesting how many people who post here are looking for ways to validate the S&T. I am sure, if they are like me, that they have met with more than a little skepticism from their friends and playing companions, not to mention any pros they might know. All I know is that it works for me. I have played as low as a 5 in the past and shot a handful of sub par rounds in my life using the traditional swing. But never have I struck the ball as solidly as often as I am right now with S&T. I am tall, 6’4″, and alway either ‘picked’ the ball or made very long but shallow divots. I hit the ball with a draw and my erorrs were pushes and pull hooks. From what I have read the S&T is perfect for me. The divots alone are making this swing worthwhile!
It has only been a few weeks now and I can honestly say I have hit a handful of perfect shots by Hogan’s definition, for those who understand the reference. The S&T has given me an enthusiasm for my golf game I haven’t had it a while and a confidence standing over the ball I have not felt for years.
The main key for me, when hitting the driver, is to keep the head from moving back. I struggled with the driver for two months using the S & T, until one day at driving range when I discovered that the head must stay forward or centered.. If the head is moving back the inconsistency is great. The irons have been great from the start, but I did struggle with the driver. I love this swing because it holds up under pressure for me. Key thoughts, a) work the knees b) keep head forward c) stay inside. The ball striking is amazing and the swing is easy to repeat. Don’t give up on the swing after two weeks, stay with and keep working.
I was interested in what you had to say about the head moving back. Video shows my head moves slightly forward on the backswing and then flops back on the downswing to about where it started. Is that what you did and how did you change that so quick?
I read the Golf Magazine article. Then I paid attention to the S & T pros on TV for a while. After several months I bought the DVDs and practiced a few days. Excellent results for a while were followed by a gradual return of old habits that produced inconsistent results. But I stuck with it. More practice and play and much rehearsal and mirror practice.
I watched the DVDs at least 10 times during my inconsistent period. Each time I picked up additional nuances. Gradually, I developed a grooved S & T swing and started playing quite well.
The key for me was coming to understanding the changing of the spine tilt during the swing, that is straightening and tilting forward during the take away, and returning to address stature just before impact, followed by straightening and backward tilt during the follow through. For me this the key to keep from turning (moving) behind the ball and moving forward throughout the entire swing.
My challenge has been to develop good tempo and continuous movement. I started out as 17 hcp. I am playing to a 12 now. My inconsistent short game is keeping me from further improvement for the time being.
I am lookig forward to playing all winter unless global warming causes lots of cold weather and snow.
I’m a new convert to SAT, found it by chance while surfing the net.
I’ve always been a good driver of the ball, but my irons have always been my weakness, I’ve was as much as 2 clubs shorter than my playing companions, high weak shots to the left,if I tried to get my weight back to the ball I would some times end up with a hook, on relextion I think that having a bit more weight on my back foot was the reason my driving was OK, a little high but usually straight.
On reading about SAT I went to the range and straight away I started compressing the ball, I won’t say that every shot I hit was perfect, but there were enough to give me hope.
It’s been 7 weeks now and my ball striking at the range has got better and better, this includes Driver and fairway woods, I did struggle a bit taking it to the course, it’s here that I was inconsistent, so really good holes, but some doubles and even a triple, so scores did not reflect any improvement.
Last Saturday was a turning point for me, I took my new swing and the correct mental approach to the course and shot 74 gross, I’m a 12 handicap, what I mean by the correct mental approach is I kept everything simple, once I had lined up, I put all my attention on the business end, i.e. the ball striking, sometimes I had the wrong club, to long or short, but that did not matter, I was striking the ball pure, that gave me confidence and anyone who plays this game will no that confidence plays a huge part in playing well.
As I have not seen the DVD’s or read any books on SAT, I’m self taught from what I have read on the internet, I also don’t think I do a complete SAT, not much tilt, but fully loading on the left side, this swing works for me, but it’s not a magic soloution, you have to work at it, I’m at the range 4 times per week, hitting 150 – 200 balls each session and I will continue to do so, I’m a great believer in working on what works and making it better.
Having read a lot of the postings I notice that people have said SAT works to start with and then the good shots disappear, that can only be because they have stopped doing what they were doing, in my practise sessions I have noticed that when I have a bad result it’s because I’m trying to hit the ball, rather than making the correct swing at it, I suggest you take some time to think about what your doing, concetrate on the SAT swing, hit a good shot, stand back and then think about what you did, then do it again and again, don’t change what you have done, this will continue to give you good results, your confidence will grow and you will play better golf.
While I was over the moon with my 74, the thing that please me the most was the comments from my partners, they continually mention how good my ball striking was, for me, that is everthing, if you line up correctly and make a good strike, you will hit a good shot.
Don’t worry what your swing looks like, concentrate on the ball striking, there are no pictures on a score card, just enjoy the results.
For newbies, these are the essentials that Mike and Andy describe for the S&T in the first DVD.
Their basic thoughts are:
– WEIGHT FORWARD (setup 55/45 favoring the left then progresses as you swing back ( at the top 60/40) until 95/5 left in the follow-thru–never gets more weight on right than left)
– HANDS IN (meaning they move 20º IN on the backswing as opposed to down the line–note they also move back and up) and keeping the “flying wedge” during all the whole swing.
– SHOULDER DOWN (the left shoulder moves DOWN on the backswing as opposed to AROUND–think steep shoulders). Tilt the left shoulder while both shoulders rotate in a circle.
– HIPS FORWARD on the finish (the hips move steadily forward during the swing–very much a lateral slide forward)
They say you may change the rest of little details but you never have to change these foundations of the swing. Hope this help
The “flying wedge” may be the most critical. Bobby Clampitt wrote almost an entire book about the concept.
I am now just under a month into S&T and the biggest change I have seen in my game is consistency. Just this past weekend I saw two different stretches of 8 to 10 consecutive holes played at par or better. For a guy who is a 10 handicap that is saying a lot. My confidence in my ball striking has really increased. I expect my index to be dropping a few points soon.
I did experience a couple of issues this weekend (especially on one tee box) where I started to block shots badly to the right. Turns out I was letting my right elbow “fly” a little, and that seemed to get me “stuck”. When I kept my right elbow tucked in and my arms closer/connected to my body I struck the ball really well, especially with my driver. I am 50, so when the cart’s GPS measured a couple of drives at 310 to 315 yds I have to say I was pleased. Friday night, and for a few balls warming up Saturday before my round I got a case of the shanks. It was really bad at the driving range Friday night, but only with the more lofted clubs. I did not figure out the elbow thing until later in the weekend, but I am wondering if in fact that is what was causing the shanked shots. Thoughts?
Also…
What experience has anyone had using the S&T chipping method? I have been experiencing mixed results. I seem to be making solid contact (and no chili dips) but the ball comes out much lower than I have been used to in the past and as such my distance control is way off! I switched from my PW to my 52 degree GW as my go to club and that seems to have helped. I have experimented a little with ball position, but I have never liked having the ball forward in my stance when chipping so I haven’t felt confident standing over the ball when doing so… and the results show it!
All in all I continue to have success with the S&T. Once in a while I hit a fat shot but I know I have lost focus and let a reverse pivot sneak in there. After a fat shot when I concentrate on keeping my weight forward chunks are never a problem. I only see myself getting better… and my back feels better, too!!
Can you point me to a web reference for this? I can’t seem to find anything on Google!
Clampett doesn’t use the term like Mike and Any do but the concept is the same…..don’t release the angle between your right wrist and forearm. His book is called The Impact Zone. I think ther term ‘flying wedge” was originally coined by Homer Kelley in his book…The Golfing Machine. Below is a link to Clampett’s site.
http://scoregolf.com/articles/xx-column-lorne-rubenstein/A-Zone-Worth-Finding.cfm
As Peter has stated the flying wedge is keeping the right wrist angle the same as it is at address . It is the same, in simple words, as arriving at impact with the hands ahead of the club. If you keep the flñying wedge as in address is the same as maintaining the radius of the swing constant , and thus the impact is more solid and clear. But if you flip it the radius is not constant -increases- and the contact will not be as good or you can even hit the ground before the ball.
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175425&st=0&p=1156714&#entry1156714
From this web:
The Flying Wedge: This is explained quite well in the DVD (and in its origin: TGM). The Flying Wedge is the angle created by your right forearm and the shaft when you bend (cup) your right wrist. This position starts at address, as the right wrist should naturally be bent at address. This angle, once it’s set, should be maintained through impact and all the way into the finish. A related thought is: once the left wrist gets Flat on the backswng…leave it that way through the finish. This is very important.
Weight forward: They like the centers stacked at address, and the center between the shoulders STAYS over the ball through impact. The center betwen the hips stays put on the backswing, but moves forward during the downswing
Thank-you to you and Pete. Your flying-W definition helps more so than the video. Luckily this isn’t something I have to worry about as I seem do it naturally. If I didn’t I probably would not be able to trap the ball the way I do. That is likely why I was puzzled by the concept.
I tried it and liked it. It mostly improved my iron play, but overall I went from a 14 to an 11 handicap and I’m still improving. I was shocked when it helped my short game, I was a good chipper before, but now I am even better.
I tried it after reading an article about it in Golf Digest and it worked so well I bought the DVD. The DVD confused me so much I took a few steps backwards. I threw the DVD out and re-read the Golf Digeat articles and I am back on track.
I hear you on the DVDs. Not the most professionally produced videos I have ever seen and a little too much rocket science for me, but…
If they did any one thing it was convinve me that there is some real valid reasons to use the S&T.
I had a very interesting experience this week. I played in a scramble tournament and for the most part was the last guy to tee off. With a ball or two already in the fairway it enabled me to be loose and let some fly… and fly they did! I hit a couple well over 300 yds with one being pin high 15 feet off the green on a 340 yd par 4. I miss hit only one tee shot all day and it was simp-y an overcooked draw I was intentionally trying to hit.
Did anyone watch the Fry’s.com Open?
Cameron Beckman (the eventual winner) appears to be using the stack and tilt. Cameron lives here in San Antonio and I know his instructor is a guy named Joe Caruso ( http://www.caruso-golf.com/ ). It has been a while since I had a lesson from Joe, but I am told he teaches nothing but the S&T these days. I don’t know for sure, but it would appear S&T has resurrected yet another PGA Tour golfer’s career!!
I was a 14 handicap in mid-July, and rising. My game was in the toilet–pull hooks and push slices off the tee, weak, fat, or thin irons. I’d watch the pros come into the ball so crisply and effortlessy, and I’d think, how are they doing that? Of course I’ll never play within a mile of that level, but I’m reasonably coordinated and I have a basic knowledge of swing mechanics, so why is it that no matter what I try, I never feel comfortable coming into the ball?
Enter S&T. A friend had been working with it since last fall, was playing better, and suggested I give it a try. I read the article and a number of posts in this forum, and then committed. (I play or practice twice a week.)
Anything I say about the mechanics has probably already been said, and what is a key S&T swing thought for me may screw somebody else up. So I’ll just make this general comment about my experience:
It got worse before it got better. I went cold turkey, practicing and playing. At my worst before the changeover, I was scraping it around in the high 80s-low90s. I shot 10 higher on average in the months following, right through mid-October. The temptation to give up on the swing was strong, but I resisted. I held to the basic principle–weight forward–and kept tinkering with the other elements in the hope that things would click if and when I found the right combination for me.
It’s November 5, the season is basically over, but I believe my patience has borne fruit. Last two rounds were 81 and 83. They were not flukes. Within the last few weeks, the variables came together pretty suddenly. I’m hitting more high quality shots, getting better distance, and feeling more confident. In 40 plus years of playing the game, I’ve never come into the ball the way I am now; I’ve never had a better handle on my swing. Staying with the S&T through the bad times paid dividends for me.
Well, well. I find it difficult to believe after trawling through all the above responses that nobody makes mention of what is, in my humble opinion,perhaps the most important facet of this method after the weightforward/head still component. And that is namely the role of the hands and arms, chiefly the arms, after impact. Instead of folding or collapsing as I used to do one must feel as if you’re pushing them forward on the intended line of flight. More of a prod,resulting in a high follow through though doubtlessly not as aesthetically pleasing as the old style wrap-around-the-torso followthrough, this really does produce more consistent high shots.
I’ve been very fortunate in coming across a pro here in the heart of Surrey who teaches S&T though, as far as he’s concerned, he’s been teaching this way for years and will not deign to ‘Americanise’ it and label it as S&T. His approach to explaining the ins and outs of HIS golf technique is nothing short of remarkable. I had my first lesson 2 weeks ago and am already seeing the fruits of my(and his) labours. Only managed 2 rounds, one good, the other mediocre but I just know I will stick to it. E-mail me on Robin.Woolf@gmail.com if you want more info .
I don’t think I have ever folded my arms on the follow through the way you describe. My arms have always finished straighter, picture Adma Scott, even before S&T. So, perhaps for me the follow through is not so important. However, I do believe you are correct in saying that keeping the arms straighter through impact is an important component of the swing, and I would say that was true whether you use S&T or the old fashioned swing.
I seem to have better results when I concentrate on what my arms do on the back swing, in particular letting my chest guide the position of my left arm which seems to promote the inside path.
Have you had any experience dealing with a flying right elbow? I have struggled with that a little since the switch to S&T and when it happens I hit high right blocks (usually at the most inopportune time).
Two comments that will bring better results with the S&T swing:
1- During the backswing it is necessary that the butt of the club point to the ball (target line). This is an easy checkpoint to follow. This will guarantee that you will keep the same swing plane. At the top the left wrist must be completely FLAT (no wrist break).
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=nz23mi02eil&thumb=4
You can check it in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvuuzcNNh60
2- At set-up the weight is recommended to be towards the balls of the feet. Not in the heels. This is explained in the first DVD. I think this detail makes easier to rotate the body. If the weight is in the heels the rotation is not so fluid. I just recall this idea because I think it is quite important but not very well known between S&Ters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLGNu0YbGkQ
Great posts people!
S&T works, and traditional one and two plane swings work as well.
I think the biggest factor in deciding if this is the swing for you is your individual swing tendancies.
I, like many people learned the 2 plane swing first, but when hardy came out with one plane swing theories I worked hard to adopt it.
Through much swing video analysis, I noticed that i always had the tendancy to get my hips moving up and toward the ball while entering the impact zone. There are ways to overcome this with the one plane swing, such as increasing your spine angle at the start of the downswing (head moves down toward the ball), but if you combine this with another fault like tilting your shoulders toward your rear foot or stopping your hips from turning all the way through your cooked.
Therefore the S&T was the obvious choice. My hips were already moving correctly, and aside from a few details the swing is almost the same as the one plane swing I was using.
As for distance, I probably hit it the furthest with the old 2 plane swing (always had fast hands), with the one and S&T being about the same. S&T consistancy is leaps and bounds ahead of the other two. 😉
This is for my particular tendancies though.
Kodiak
Whoa!! Did the wheels ever fall off this past weekend!! I was completely lost and could not find a S&T swing to save my life. Worst round of golf I have played in 20+ years. But…
I stuck to it for no other reason than I believe in the results I have seen already.
Last night I hit 1 1/2 big buckets. At first it was as bad as it was on the course, BIG push slices (40 to 50 yards right of target), and hooks. Weak, glancing contact. Even some tops. I knew I had to be either reverse pivoting or getting stuck some how. I went over everything I could remember from the videos and articles, and then something clicked. I wasn’t clearing!
Once I started “jumping” at the ball, i.e. making that dramatic clear move often described as driving your left foot downward, cupping my butt, etc., I started to make amazing contact again and everything fell back into place. I left the range very happy!
My guess is that because I was playing a course I feel is difficult I was tentative with my swing, and as such the dramatic clear move left my swing. It it appearing to be a VERY important component, and maybe one that has resulted in other people not being able to stick with the S&T.
Thoughts?
All this does raise another interesting question…
What experience have any of you had hitting less than full shots? Seems like the more agressively I swing with S&T the better the results. But, I have to admit it I have had some struggles when trying to play feel shots or trying to ‘smooth’ a shot, this weekend being a perfect example.
Comments?
SATX,
I think we both are having the same experiences. I get the best results when I swing very fast (hard). I don´t know why. Maybe it is because we are using a shorter backswing in those fast shots, and that´s the right thing to do. I don´t know for sure. I can not get all the power if I swing slower -as Mike does in the youtube videos- .Maybe someone can explain us why ?? Maybe a release problem?
About your weekend round problems I think it is because perhaps you are initiating the downswing with your arms. Sometimes it is the same for me in those cases when I want to add more power to the shot and involuntarily I move the arms down. The arms must remains totally passive and the only concious movement must be the “jumping up” of the left hip.
About the pushes, maybe they are due to being overdoing the freezing flying wedge drill and you are pointing to the right.
OK – well after about 4 months of work – including reading the GD articles multiple times, buying and watching the DVD numerous time, 4 trips to the range and 5 rounds of play, it finally CLICKED!!!
Had the best ball striking round of my life yesterday. Since I started with the S&T I had not broken 90 despite being a 10 hdcp. Shot 82 yesterday with 4 “3 putts”. I had multiple 10-15 foot birdie looks.
I also put in play some new irons yesteday – AP2s, but I think that my forward hip movement during the downswing has become more automatic thereby making contact much crisper and consistent.
My only gripe is that ball flight , though arrow straight, was somewhat low for my liking.
I am glad it finally clicked as I was thinking of abandoning S&T.
I am still using a rotational/golfing machine swing for my woods, but the irons are all S&T.
I was reluctant to give this stack and tilt ‘swing’ a try. After all, I felt like I was a pretty good ball striker for the most part. Some days my timing seems great and I hit solid shots and other days I’m off and I have inconsistent contact and end up giving my short game some extra work.
Well, I had shoulder surgery in Feb and wasn’t allowed a full swing until late April. So I had 60 days of trying to get back in the grove. And then the remodel monster paid a visit to my house for three months. That’s a killer. (no golf)
When I finally started getting out consistently in September, there wasn’t much left of my golf swing. My handicap was sliding off the face of the earth and it didn’t feel like I was hitting very many good golf shots. My typical ball flight is a slight draw. I found my swing was now a fade or worse; and I had lost about a club and a half of yardage. The power didn’t feel like it was there at all. Accuracy was awful as well.
Online, I stumbled on a stack and tilt article and decided to look back through it for something that might help. It looked promising so I printed up a copy of the article and took it to the range and went through the steps. The setup and swing felt strangely familiar. (Anybody else have this feeling?) And the results were impressive. I hit the ball as well as I EVER remember. The swing pretty well eliminated the entire right side of my target. I had an occasional pull left, but, I’ve always had those. Shots came off the club face crisp and with that feeling that you swung and didn’t hit anything. I have to admit, I was enormously impressed. That was with 1 bucket of golf balls on the driving range.
When I went out on the golf course a couple days later I found that it was pretty easy to use the stack and tilt swing on level, or nearly level ground. I wasn’t sure how to deal with an uphill lie as it is nearly impossible to keep the weight on the uphill foot and not dig the club into the hillside. The swing worked fine with the ball above or below my feet. I didn’t have any downhill lies to deal with so I don’t know there.
I wasn’t sure how to deal with the driver either. I had read the comments above that many have struggled with the longer irons and the woods. I ended up teeing the ball lower ( I usually tee the ball very high and in front of my left heel) and a little more in line with my left heel. Again, I eliminated the right side of the fairway and ended up with either a dead straight shot or mild draw and a lower ball flight overall. I don’t have any fairway woods in the bag, just a pair a hybrids in 18* and 21*. They were both easy to hit on the range and the course.
The hardest part of the stack and tilt swing for me is getting rid of old weight transfer habits. I can tell that I am going to need to go through a volume of range balls to get this new swing ingrained. I do feel confident that this is a better swing than what I had been using. It feels right. After just 2 buckets of range balls and a quick 9 holes on the course that I am striking the ball exceptionally well. And I don’t find any discomfort in my fused lower back.
Obviously, shot results are the deciding factor of a successful golf shot. I am impressed with how comfortable it is to use the stack and tilt swing, how cleanly I make contact with the ball, and the results of my shots.
I decided it would be wise to watch the instructional DVD’s so I’ve ordered them and look forward to better shots and lower scores.
I was tooling around with the Stack and Tilt via the Golf Digest magazine article and my ball striking was immediately improved. I did purchase the DVD’s, and got a more detailed look at the swing. After watching the first two DVD’s and going to the range, I was practically flushing all of my irons with laser like accuracy with a slight draw. The stack and tilt does work. With Stack and Tilt I am hitting the ball center of the club face, which has led to increased distance. For example, I hit a squarely flushed 7iron 165 yards. Before S & T, a good 7 iron shot, prayerfully straight, would have been 140 yards.
Overall, my ball striking has become consistent and solid, however, as with any swing change, one has to ingrain new movements and counter old mechanics. One the technical difficulties I had with S & T was staying to the left side on the down swing, but after reviewing the video, I better understood what my hips had to do in the downswing. After re watching the video, I went to the range and hit nearly every ball solid and straight without spraying them all over the place which will lead to improved accuracy. The Stack and Tilt will definitely bring a level of consistency to my game that I have always struggled to maintain.
Although Bennett and Plummer have a lot of critics concerning their swing, mostly because it goes against most conventional golf instruction, I would tell anyone to try it, work with it, and see. With a little effort, I know you’ll strike the ball a little better than you are already striking it.
As for the critics of Stack and Tilt, go ahead and continue to apply those, often conflicting and contradictory, “band aid†fixes and “tips†to your swing from those monthly Golf magazine subscriptions with your favorite PGA tour pro on the cover serving up another tip or drill for you to crush it like him off the tee. When that doesn’t work find a teaching professional who’ll have you work on the “fundamentals†of the “conventional†golf swing only to have you to become more thoroughly frustrated as to why you can’t get rid of the banana ball flight to the right, the thin shots, and the fat “earth moving†shots.
To eliminate all of that there are two words that can put you game on the right track if you don’t have the time a tour pro does to devote to practicing a golf swing: Stack and Tilt
I use the stack and tilt swing method. To me, it is just an easier way to have a more repeatable swing. I see stack and tilt as having less moving parts, translation less to go wrong. Nice that this also agrees with my personal philosophy on life.
A few of the comments I have seen include a discussion of stack and tilt not being effective when using the driver. I found that statement to also be true. My solution has been to use the standard stack and tilt technique for my iron shots and a modified stack and tilt technique for my driver. My modification is to stack (more weight on the left foot), but to tilt my spine away from the target as would be the case with a “conventional” golf setup/swing. This may not work for everyone who has a similar problem with using stack and tilt with a driver, but it has worked extremely well for me.
I play off 8 and have been playing for 25 years. Have always been told I look like I have a good swing but don’t strike the ball consistently – i.e. nice positions, bad swing! Could tell I was flipping my hands at impact by the shape of the divots and the dirt on my inside left trouser leg, but couldn’t fix it. Recently started taking lessons. My instructor told me I was moving my right hip going back, but due to an old hip injury, I physically could not anchor my right side consistently. Read about S&T and thought that if I changed the weight focus from my right side to my left it might help.
In one step, thinking S&T has solved all the problems. I don’t think about the right hip any more – keeping on the left eliminates it. My divots are more like dollar bills. There is minimal effort and no conscious release of my hands. I trigger my left hip at address, point my left shoulder down at the ball on the way back, then thrust off the inside of my right foot, relax into my left side and thrusting the hips strong through and up. I try to feel like the arms and body are lightly connected, so that they follow the body, with my midriff leading the swing. I don’t think about my hands through impact as I can’t cotrol them. Given that the sound off the club and the strike are completely different, I must be doing something right. My instructor, who does not teach S&T, has confirmed it – after 6 weeks work, he is very happy with the progress. He says while I may think I am tilting, I am actually just staying on top of the ball much better and getting through it. He confirms I am compressing it. There is no violence to the swing – just a feeling of togetherness and a steady build up of speed.
I think the swing thoughts behind S&T can be very helpful to anyone who was experiencing similar issues to me. It has completely eliminated the hands, so it feels simpler. Slight increase in distance but major improvement in the strike, the ball flight (consistency of trajectory) and the distance control. I don’t care about hitting it further – my major issue is the ball flight. As I play a lot in the wind, the strike, the ball flight and not hitting it too hard in order to keep spin down are everything. Short irons massively improved. I am still struggling with the longer irons and woods – starting with the weight more centre / left has somewhat confused my sense of the swing plane on the takeaway with longer clubs, but some helpful comments on this site re: body position at address are helping. No going back.
Thanks to all the previous posters for sharing their experiences!
Before trying to teach myself the S&T method in June 2008, I had only been playing golf for a couple of years, and, at the time, only had the confidence and ability to play executive par-3 courses with inconsistent results from numerous fat/thin/hook/push shots. After many sessions at the driving range, currently, I’m able to play regulation length courses. I can’t say that my maximum distance changed appreciably, but my average distance and, therefore, my consistency sure has. My tee shots often find the fairway with an occasional push or hook. I often experience hitting the sweet spot with my wood shots and my swing feels effortless.
The DVD has a wealth of information to help me analyze my errant shots and make the necessary corrections (unfortunately not until after the round). For instance, I was hitting thin for while, but my weight stayed forward. Then I figured out that my elbows were splaying apart before and during impact and I made the correction. Other issues that I’ve corrected were not having my feet angled out enough which limited my hip and thus my shoulder rotation, translating my hips forward too quickly causing my club head to turn the comer too quickly resulting in a slice, not maintaining the flying wedge causing fat shots with huge divots and using too much muscle to straighten the rear elbow on the downswing resulting in a pull.
For the amount of money that they charge for the DVD, I would expect some higher technology motion capture methods so that the motions can be viewed sequentially instead of piecemeal. Also, seeing the ball trajectory would be helpful too.
When I started learning, I had a nice draw, but now, after much practice, my shots go straight (not complaining). I haven’t been able to consistently apply the S&T swing to my pitch shots especially with uneven lies often hooking the ball. Maintaining the flying wedge de-lofts my irons sacrificing some carry distance but increasing my roll. A launch monitor showed that my S&T swing launched the ball at 10.5 degrees with my 19 degree 5W so I think I need to figure out how to re-cock the club faster to control the angle of ascent. Moving the ball forward in my stance starts to produce a slice which Plummer and Bennett predict. I’m currently shopping for my 1st driver and will probably end up purchasing a higher-lofted one, maybe around 12 degrees.
Getting professional instruction from a S&T teacher seems difficult because the swing is radically different from the swing that I was taught in my initial lessons which, I assume, is fairly widely taught. A previous poster from Portland, OR clued me into a certified S&T instructor and I’ll try to seek lessons from him (thx LarryB!). Also, Plummer and Bennett often refer to the author of, â€The Golfing Machine†by Homer Kelley so I’m also considering finding a Golfing Machine certified teacher to help me to refine my S&T swing or to show me a better way.
I tried Stack & Tilt in June 2008 and thought it was amazing. My iron play improved and went about 10% farther than before. I’m an 11 handicap and play half decent normally but the improvement in ball flight and accuracy was fantastic. I didn’t have quite the same results with the driver but my driving was still very acceptable.
Gradually over time though, as is normal with me, the success began to wane. So I went back and viewed my DVD again and the S&T fundamentals returned. I now view the DVD every month or so just to remind me how to maintain my fundamentals. Since even the pros need constant training with their teachers, why not me to view my DVD every month or so.
TimE
In order to get a little more loft, as far as negative loft is concern, make sure you are getting a good downward shoulder turn to help with getting a steeper angle of descent into the ball. Also, try opening the clubface slightly no more than 3*. A slight open clubface will add a positive loft….These are a couple of things I did that helped….Good luck with your game
I think you are smart to find a good TGM instructor in your area. It has helped me a lot to reconnnect after 35 years with my TGM instructor. Lag pressure is very important in TGM instruction. It is used to accomplish the “FLYING WEDGE” in the S&T.
R U kidding me. Stack and tilt is just another bias based on what scientific pricnciples? First of all the Pros promoting this swing method aren’t consistently winning and have likely been paid by the promoters to promote. Regardless of their fee to endorse they still maintain their core process of swinging the club.
Each professional has crafted their particular process for swingig the club. A better way to explain it – it is their biomechanics. Biomechanics is an opinion on how that particular person uses their body to move the club. You see, biomechanics is just that, opinion. An Oponin specfic to their body and how they use it. ANATOMY is the truth! How you manage the 6 major flexible joints and the one spine that we all possess determine the success or lack of in any and all atheletic activities.Strength (muscles) is another additional component that can add to or subtract from the results. All atheltic activities are based on the anatomy and how it is engaged.
Stack and Tilt is just another reconsititued method thrust upon us for financial gain by the promoters. It’s not even a new flavor. It’s a blend of good information and bad information with the typical promise of greatness. These Pros did not get great in 15 minutes. They worked and work hard to stay in an elite field of 150, and it is worth it- tournament winnings, endoresements, and notoriety.
We as wrecreational golfers keeping looking for shortcuts or the “Secret” There are no secrets to hard, disciplined work and good information. Anatomy is the truth.
rukme
I take some exception to your comments. First of all, there have been more than a few S&T golfers out there winning the past while. Cameron Beckman being the most recent at the end of last year. Tommy Armour III being another S&T golfer, who also happens to be right at the very top of last years ball striking statistics. Mike Weir is another golfer who has seen a turnaround in his game since adopting the S&T. And since there a only an elite few golfers who ‘win consistently’ I am more open to who is doing well on a week to week basis!
Whether the S&T is old information re-packaged, or a new a revolutionary method of swinging, it is still worthy of consideration by any golfer. It may not be for you, but there is some extremely valid information in here. I would ask you to name one golfer who would not want to ‘trap’ the ball better or more consistently. The S&T does just that.
I took up S&T a few months ago, and in spite of some early excitement from what I was experiencing, I have had some major ups and downs with this swing, but I stuck with it. Luckily, I have a pro here in San Antonio, TX, who is teaching S&T, or more accurately, a modified S&T. He is, coincidentally, Cameron Beckman’s instructor. I say ‘modified’ because his method involves keeping your head behind the ball with the longer irons and woods. I struggled with a reverse pivot for a while trying to incorporate that modification, but in recent weeks I have begun to see a remarkable amount of consistency in my swing. I carded a matching pair of 78s yesterday in which I hit 23 of 28 fairways. And of the five fairways I missed I had two pairs of identical misses in which I found myself in the exact same fairway bunkers on both rounds. With my shorter irons I move toward the classic S&T and stay right over the ball.
So, back to your original comments, and perhaps you will agree with this…
Forget S&T as a marketing gimmic, etc. For that matter, forget the term ‘Stack and Tilt’ altogether. The most critical swing thought in the whole method, and perhaps a better name for it, is ‘Weight Forward’. Stay over the ball on short irons and keep your head behind the ball with longer irons/hybrids and woods. Make your whole swing more simple by forgetting the complicated left to right then right to left weight shift. Just put your weight on your left side and keep it there. Forget all the complicated leg straightening, tilting, etc. Once you are set up, concentrate on maintaining the position of your head relative to the ball and keep your weight forward throughout the swing. If you do that the rest happens automatically, at least in so far as my own biomechanics are concerned. 😉
In my opinion, S & T principals can be helpful if:
you lack compression in your iron strikes.
you find it difficult to take divots (hit alot of thin shots).
you hit pushes/blocks.
you’re natural ball position with an iron is too far forward.
your club travel outside the plane after impact. (to 1 o’clock)
Watch the great iron players and notice what they have in common:
divots, compression
ball stays on clubface longer
they use the grooves higher up on the clubface
efficient, compact swings.
If you have these common swing flaws, often found in single digit handicap players, S & T can you make the changes you need to make.
❓
Not so sure about that Roberto. I’ve read that the sweetspot on irons is between the 3rd and sixth grooves from the bottom.
I smashed my shoulder in whilst skiing, this left me unable to raise my elbows in a chicken wing fashion, which you might think would be useful but it isn’t. Combined with my back which I’ve now broken 3 times (not having much luck here) it led to disaster in my golf. My traditional swing was very un rotational and used the power of my arms more which causes a lot of pull hooks. After the accident i developed the dreaded reverse pivot, hit a lot of fat shots, hit low, my game went to the dogs ( i was a 9 handicapper though every game would see me in traction for a couple of days due to back pain . I developed a swing which worked although it looked a little weird. I stumbled upon stack and tilt and thought wow that looks like my swing. I read the article and followed the advice and developed. A lot of people seem to find the swing works but then they go back to shanking and hooks, I’ll tell you why. Its fundementals, i had the same problem whereas i developed this new swing and then pow it went and wasnt working , hooks , shanks the lot. the cause of this……. nothing more than grip… the S&T i think really has not got much room for error in the way the club is held, the general balance of the club if the head is mis aligned gets magnified by the swing throwing it off. It took a while but aside from any other tweaks to make these two are the most important.
1) grip the club properly hold your hands out straight and make sure the sole faces skywards and comfortably.
2) Take a practise swing, if it feels wrong then it is wrong, swing then swing again and look at where the club head is, bet its really closed for most of you hookers because your grips gone to pot.
Thats it really. I did find i hit a lot of driver shots on the downswing at first and had to experiment a little but theyre sweet now and 85 % straight. When i do muck up though im hooking but its usually because ive become that cocky that my body does what every body does and returns to where its comfy ie bad posture.
As for my back I no longer feel contorted and Im finally enjoying the game again. S&T is for me, not entirely picture perfect but extremely workable. To me it was a solution. Dont know if this helps but I visualse on the backswing that my shoulder is a pivot point and im holding a broom at the very tip of the shaft and i push the broom in a straight line behind the ball on the as if its in a groove going through the ball toward the target. It provides me with lag and more importantly gives me a visualisation improving consistency.
Check your grip folks
hope this helps
Playing to a true 7 Hcdp, I have always had trouble “compressing” the ball to the ground and leaving a good diviot. I have been reading and watching videos I can find about the S and T swing. Goofed around a little in a Golf Shop one day and I noticed how different the ball sounded when I hit it. Haven’t tried on course until tonight. Temps in low 40’s and I was “stripping” it to the green…left a great diviot everytime I hit it. Now, I can’t seem to figure the swing out for the driver, but as far as long irons to the wedge, I hit the ball better than I have in a long time. Going to hit it more on range tomorrow and have a plan of testing it in a match on Sunday. Seems to be a real easy swing to hit and I have had always had back trouble after a round and it seems to be real easy on my back so far…I have not purchased any video’s on this swing, but may soon be looking at doing so just to understand it more…give it a try if you have trouble “compressing” and leaving diviots…it really works!! 😀
As luck would have it I enjoyed an impromptu lesson with an assistant club pro on the driving range after a round just yesterday. I have felt like I was striking the ball solidly, but I haven’t been getting any distance. The pro started to suggest changes but I knew instantly they were for a standard swing and not the S&T. When I said I had been working on S&T he brightened and said he had played it for three years.
If I may digress for a second… If you have read my other posts you will know a pro I worked with here in Texas has me doing a modified S&T, especially with my driver. As such while my weight is forward, etc., he promotes having your head behind the ball slightly and this really seems to help the driver. He instructs a tour pro who won on tour late last year using this method, so there is something to it.
The pro yesterday immediately commented on the position of my head not being S&T and I explained why I was doing it. We had a long discussion about accuracy, especially with the driver. His thoughts were that with the S&T you need to very concious about moving the ball back in your stance. If you have it at all forward the results are unpredictable (or rather they are and you will slice badly!)
I gave his advice a try and as you said, I was “striping the ball” with long piercing drives with a lower trajectory than I saw with my head behind the ball.
So, I would try either method with the driver. I think the head behind the ball method with weight forward as in S&T taught me a lot about my driver swing and I have been very happy with the direction my driver was going even if the raw distance wasn’t there. Yesterday’s results at the driving range, however, have me rethinking that and I will be experimenting with the ball back in my stance and my head stacked once again.
I think it is important to re-mention comments you will see all over this thread. If your usual error with your driver is a straight push or a hook, then S&T will work for you. If you are a slicer of the ball, the switch to using S&T, particularly with the drver, will be more difficult. The difference is players who swing inside to outside vs those who swing outside to inside. I am an inside to outside player, so I found that the driver started working with S&T the very first night on the driving range.
Good luck!
Thanks for the info about the driver swing, it’s alittle more “work in progress”, however, I did use the S and T today in my match and won 6-4…counting conseeded holes, shot close to a 73…still having to remember “key” swing thoughts, so more trips to the range are needed, but hit a lot of pure shots today. Picked up distance on Irons with less effort in swing…one thing, most of my misses or bad results were left, it was like i had to protect from “over drawing” the ball, but it was easy to adjust for it…
I am new to the stack and tilt. I like it so far. Seems to really compress the ball nicely with irons. I’m a four handicap, hope to improve on that. I notice alot of the comments are on the driver difficulties. Make sure, you lead the downswing with the rotation of the hips, crushing the can under your left foot. But also, make sure the club returns from the same plane it went back on, not over it. That move, a turning of the hips, combined with swinging the club on plane from the inside, was really Hogan’s move. He said the faster he cleared his left hip, the farther he hit the ball. He also had extremely fast hands, and said he wishes he had three right hands. He stacked too, he did not move way to the right on the backswing. This method is not that new, has been around awhile, just explained alittle differently. Its simple, way less movement going on, thats for sure. Jim Hardy teaches a similar swing with his swing plane one. A very flat, to the inside backswing, with no lateral movement. He also mentions to swing as hard as you can, as long as you “bump the left side” with the left hip first, starting down. Its all very similar, just worded alittle different. Good luck to all, keep swinging. One more thing, I think setting up with the driver, the head behing the ball just alittle bit helps. Joe C
Won my second match using this swing. The Shoulder under the chin seems to be a good swing thought…starting to get the trust factor and not having to think as much…If you tend to hit it thin and have trouble compressing the ball…this swing is for you…give it a try, you will like it. 🙂
Serious folks, this swing really does help, shot a 74 today in wet conditons, Do the videos help any more than what you can find out there on sites like “Youtube” ?
I have both the videos and have watched the youtubes from Nick Clearwater. This is a good combination. The videos do a good job of showing you how to correct common issues (slice, hook, thin, fat, etc.)
My first post here after reading much of the others. I would caution anyone trying to learn a swing pattern such as stack and tilt from a dvd or similar to be careful. Take some pieces that you can FULLY understand and use them. If you are not sure then my suggestion would be to find more information and qualified details – when you get right down to it the stack and tilt is a geometry based swing pattern that includes many pieces exhibited by many of the true greats of the game. Every part of this pattern is based in fact and it is easy to see examples of what each piece of the swing does to ball flight. Instead of guessing why shots go certain ways the stack and tilt pattern allows the student and instructor to analyze quickly and efficiently…then correct the necessary piece. Unfortunately it is not as easy as going to the range and believing the “feel” you have is correct – this is the difficult part.
Just recently purchased the s & t dvd’s. I wanted to try this because it looked similar to the swing that I have had for a while now. At first, I was hitting the ball ok, but was not consistant. After a few days of watching the video, I made a few adjustments.
First, I think, I may have been tilting too much. Since I am tall, I may have been bending at the waist too much.
Now that I am standing a little taller and not tilting so much, I have found consistancy, even with the driver. I can move the ball in my stance in accordance to which club I am using. I can feel the club releasing on each and every swing. I am going to continue to practice for another week, before I take it out on the course. Right now, I am hitting the ball better than I ever have. I am glad this new swing has come.
I discovered S&T about 4 months ago, I’ve always had trouble with weight shift, been to many Pro’s who have highlighted this and tried to get me have a better weight transfer.
I read the Golf Digest article on S&T and made sense to me and I could not wait to get to the range to try it, I have to say my ball striking improved straight away, gone were the high shots that lacked power and in came the drilled iron shots.
My experince was that as soon as I found consistant ball striking I wanted to hit the ball, better and further, this is when things went wrong, I stopped doing the fundementals of S&T, I soon realised this to be the case and went back to the basic fundamentals of S&T and my game came back.
All areas of my game have improved, my driving is straighter and longer than ever, I therefore need less club to get to the green.
When I started with the S&T swing I was playing off 12, this has been reduced to 9, my best round to date being a net 60, my general confidence on the course has grown as I feel I can hit the ball within the general aiming area, therefore my course management has improved.
I love S&T and will continue to work on my swing, I’m confident that I will get down to 6 by the end of this season.
By the way, I’m not a junior who was going through the natural downward handicap process, I’m 57 this year, I’ve been playing since I was in my mid 20’s and this is both the best golf I’ve ever played and lowest handicap.
RE: S and T.
Back stress issue: stresses back are less on backswing because hips are allowed to turn with shoulders. Stresses greater on the full followthru on account of reverse C. A draw here.
Effectiveness: lack of weight shift does not negate need for lots of practice and work! That said, I’M convinced there is proabably a sizable contingent of golfers out there for whom this is the most natural swing, probably mostly tallish- thinner folks. If it feels good to you right away, go for it, and give it lots of time.
Things I haved noted to be helpful to keep the S and T clicking: keep left toe well toed out at lot at address. (Right foot can be pretty square.) Don’t let grips get too strong! This seems poison for S and T. Keep right arm tucked in on backswing and transition. Make COMPLETE shoulder turn on followthru. Very fast tempos don’t work well. Hope this helps someone.
Bought the DVDs, and have been practicing S&T for about 1 month now…really compressing the ball well with irons. Anyone know of Philadelphia area instructors? Thanks in advance!
I am a stack and tilt PGA Class A Instructor in the Dallas area. I have worked with Plummer personally.
If anyone needs help with their swing, I can be reached at cascam1@verizon.net
I went pretty much the way of the author of the article. I had a couple of really bad accidents which hampered my mobility and my body moulded itself into a position where i could hit the ball. I had people coming up and saying I had a reverse tilt and should try this and that to rectify it which made me smile as I was usually beating them. It was only when someone said “look thats stack and tilt” show me how you do that, that I learned I wasnt so much of a freak after all. I use the method for Drives and all my irons and hybrids ( I play off 9). For lob shots Im slightly more orthodox and that goes for bunker shots too. I find I occasionally sky a driver shot and sometimes shank an iron shot but not very often and it only happens when i get too cocky and dont do a practice swing.
I broke under par on the back nine after 2 eagles for the first time in my life yesterday.
In all I can summise with this. Stack and tilt suits me it might not suit you, I can drive 280-350 yards with my old orthodox swing but control was non existant I now average about 250 -310 but 90% of the time straight as a die. Iron play has had no effect on distance my short game is immense. Lobs and bunkers Im having to work on though.
For those wishing to try it close the face a little then place the club down aiming it directly at the target. The swing should feel like its actually going outside in … but its not.
One year after purchasing the video I am playing my best ever. I have gained 20-30 yards with the driver and 100% more consistance with the irons.
My handicap has not gone down much, I am still an 8, but I eliminated the bad rounds that used to increase my handicap.
The only bad drives happen when I “stay back” as I used to do in trying to stay behind the ball.
I have learned to take the changes that most suited my swing and ignored others like the flairing of the hips to the left and the exagerated tilt back on the downswing.
The concept works. You just have to trust it and commit to it.
This concept has opened my eyes to the crap that most teachers tell their students to do.
I am happy with my game all round swinging the traditional way however I do lose distance with my wedges because they go way too high. From 9 iron to my 2 iron, there no issues and the woods/hybrids are fine too but the clubs I need to score go far too high to be effective. If S&T will help then I will try it for the three clubs in my bag I need the most if it gets the flight down a bit. I really do not study the swing but know that ten years ago I could swing a 56 degree wedge 105 yards and hit my spots all day long where now I have trouble hitting it 90 yards and feel fortunate if I get it to twenty feet. How much does S&T bring the flight down?
Any comments would be appreciated.
P.S. I was given lessons from a pro who advocated the Model Golf technique about 17 years ago when I began the game. Since then no lessons but maintain between a 4-7 handicap.
I was an early SAT convert – I’m tall and wear bi-focal lenses and lost sight of the ball when returning on the downswing . I was on the range the day after the article came out. The ball striking was outstanding. Of course, I was self-teaching SAT and there was no one to ask about corrections and ball placement. I’ve kept at it and the pros at my club now accept it and don’t mess with my swing. I have had good luck with my handicap dropping from 16 to a low of 11 last year. I’m back to a 12 early in a wet/windy season.
The DVD’s were a god send because the two guys, Bennett and Plummer explained the swing in incredible detail – yes bookish-ly so. It was like a college lecture at times. The DVD’s don’t show enough balls being hit. And, there are spelling mistakes galore on many of the graphic slides – so it could have been a massive rush job.
However, the key swing items I was looking for were there. The flying wedge and sliding the hips on the downswing.
Also, one important key for my swing to keep it solid is to keep the” arms on the body”. It gets me thinking more solid on the downswing and not such a long backswing.
Also keep the tempo smooth throughout – they stress the rotation of the shoulders and the club going back happens smoothly – all connected.
Hitting the ground after the ball consistently with irons was a good key.
Keep the hands and butt of the club further behind the shoulders and not “higher” helps promote their 20 degree angle of takeaway and approach.
The driver is booming and irons continue solid.
My one problem area is my hybrid clubs – hard to hit with SAT for some reason. The 15 degree gets off the ground with a trad. swing but not so well with SAT.
But, I’m sticking with it.
I’ve been sold on S&T since the GD articles came out. Sometimes i tinker but always come back due to the compression and simplicity of the action. The only downfalls i’ve experienced are:
1. Inflammation/pain in the left knee when practicing alot.
2. Hooks w/ the driver/fairway/hybrids.
I’ve got the videos and watched all the youtube stuff but can’t shake this hook with the long stuff. It always seems to show up under pressure. I’m a relatively high ball speed player and would much rather play a fade – the model definitely promotes a push/draw flight. Any help here is appreciated.
Also if anyone knows of a S&T teacher in New England please let me know. Thanks!
Dublj:
I have had a bit of left knee pain too – but not the back wrenching spasms from when I used a trad. swing – so for me a good trade-off.
I find it’s easier now to actually hit a fade with SAT. I made it my go-to drive swing rather than trying to get a draw going.
Standing just a bit taller and having 50-50 weight setup, plus the idea of the ‘hold-off’ in the follow through seems to produce a good fade. Going for kind of a “lazy” swing works.
There’s a golf hole we have here that is meant to draw around a pond running down the left side. Woods on the right. Lately, I’m aiming for left edge pond with fade and ending up in the fairway. “Trying” to get a draw everytime caused a lot of blocks into the woods to happen. But the “perfect” straight shot would be nice more often.
For me also, a late round hook can start if I’m fatigued and fail to tilt and flex the left knee. So make a pronounced practise swing with a big tilt – and a high finish.
Slowing everything down might work for you – though it’s against your personal style “speed player.” Think slow and fluid – – you’ll still swing fast – just in better tempo.
Keep your “arms attached to your body.” That is #1 for me.
Stack and Tilter Tom
have been using s&t for about 2 weeks. self taught from GD article and you tube clearwater.am 56 and 11 hc. tried 4 times on driving range second time wowed me. similar story as above, solid , consistent contact. 3rd and 4th time not quite as good but promising. played 18. ugly!! stuck with it whole time and had a few really good shots but overall bad. shot 94. short game was good that day as well! anyway went to range and played morphed version, weight centered. went back to the videos and had not been sliding my hips towards the target so was pivoting too early and pulling or fading the ball. for some reason it is hard for me to think of sliding my hips left before pivoting and so lose all timing. found good success again last two times on range if i think about hitting down on the ball at about 45 degrees to the right ( i am a righty) then i must shift left automatically to be able to do this and am hitting some of the best shots ever with little effort. i also like the feeling of “going after the ball” with my right hand..skipping stone analagy i’ve read about fits well. driver also working well. agree with hogan now, wish i had 3 right hands
I’m a dedicated stack in tilter since picking up the clubs again this spring. Suffering for years with an outside-in /over the top trajectory and it’s familiar results…the S&T cured me of this issue immediately. Have been able to draw and cut the ball with this swing. Have to agree that s____ are more frequent with the swing especially if you let your head come back off the ball even slightly or you let your arms stray from the chest. Staying forward and maintaining chest arm relationship address this this. Driver trajectory is lower and therefore mean driving distance is lower but happily traded for accuracy. GIR ratio to par has already improved…hoping this will make breaking 80 possible on those 32-35 putting days.
I just started this method TODAY. I’m a 7-8 handicapper and have gotten in a rut of late not breaking 80 in my last 5 rounds or so.
Also, about 5 weeks ago, I had my first lesson in YEARS and the pro wanted me to get more upright (as expected) and taller and was quite okay with my “sway.”
Thusfar, I’ve had exactly the same experience as the guy above. I immediately have more confidence that my “natural,” old swing (which was “flatter” on the backswing and more “inside-out” on the downswing) was OKAY and correct. So I never should have changed anything.
Before the dreaded lesson I picked the ball clean and always a thin divot and a “natural” draw. I’ve got a strong, 3 knuckle grip (ala zach jonhson) and I’m about 5’10”.
After the lesson (traditional style) I was hitting the ball straighter (but not as pure) and lost about 15 yards or so on my 7 iron (I used to hit it 190 with the upright, tall swing I’m hitting it 175 at best, but straighter). I have a A TON more misses and they’ve been sprayed (pushes, hooks, slices — yeah it’s been ugly, but my swing has “looked” great).
After day one, I am closer to my “natural” swing (apparently SnT was closer to my old swing than I would have ever known). I’ve got my steady, slight draw back, I was pounding it down my target line, lowered the ball flight a pinch, got my distance back (probably because this swing style promotes a descending slightly delofted blow on the ball).
Here’s the kicker for me (as of day one) and I love this: I wasn’t picking the ball THIN nor was I swinging nearly as inside out as before my traditional-style lesson… my divot was CONSISTENTLY starting right in FRONT of the ball time and time again. And if you watch really good players, i don’t care what the swing style, they take a divot that starts in front of or DIRECTLY at the ball every time and is absolutely never behind the ball and rarely thin.
I know the goal was to share perspective from “a month or so after starting” but I thought I’d share anyway.
Forgot to mention that I’m absolutely not getting my driver high enough with this swing, but thats another dvd in the lesson so I’ll just tee it higher and move it forward and hope for the best until I get to that section.
I think S&T is the way most pros are actually playing the game to slightly different degrees. They generally, Tiger included keep there weight on their left side throughout the swing. Thats why they all take massive divots on TV.
Dont be fooled by Harmon and co( the critics) they know it works and why. Hank Haney is a registered Medicus Instructor ( Stack & Tillt) and also coach to Tiger.
If it improves your ball striking stick with it.
I’d seriously doubt that my swing is what a stack and tilt purist would call stack and tilt. However, the concept of stack and tilt led me to a swing change, which is to severely slow down my backswing to eliminate any swaying to the right side (I am a right handed golfer). This swing key (key for me) keeps me positioned over the ball and keeps my left foot planted (prevents me from over rotating my hips). My slow backswing allows me to simply turn my shoulders against my hips to produce torque (coil), then letting my hands drop into position and releasing through the downswing. I’ve heard comments from people who have said they’ve never seen anyone with such a slow backswing possess the ability to hit the ball so well. I usually just smile or I’ll comment that I’ve never seen any reason to swing back faster as I’ve never seen a golfer hit the ball with backswing. Perhaps this is not the intention of stack and tilt, but the concept of stack and tilt has helped me build a better swing.
I, like many others, tried the SAT when the article first came out but didn’t stick with it very long. I bought the CDs a year ago and committed to the swing change over the winter.
I am driving the ball farther than ever and I now have the ability to find the green from almost any distance with my hybrids and irons. (the days of missing short and to the right are gone!)
I have problems when I forget to play the ball back far enough and do not lower my left shoulder enough on the back swing.
Other than the ball placement , I try to focus on just two swing keys. I keep the left shoulder down, and straighten the right leg to start the back swing.
I have also found that focusing on how these moves feel, rather than the mechanics, helps my consistency in playing conditions.
I will never go back to the conventional swing. There are just too many pieces to focus on, and old ruts that I don’t want to revisit.
I started playing golf when I retired in August, 2006. I banged around and took a few hours lessons and enrolled in player development classes, etc. and settled into a 110 score. After two years of frustration I found S&T and like many, my golf game inproved dramatically overnight. I was shooting regularly in the low 90’s with my best round an 82. Like many others, something happened and I lost the handle and my typical score went to high 90’s, low 100’s. I have not quit on it and continued to try to find out what I was not doing or was doing that caused the frustrating results. I looked at and concentrated on every element of the swing that I could think of. I looked at the youtube videos and tried the suggestions I gleaned from them. Nothing returned me to the swing that gave me the straight, consistent shots that i enjoyed for such a short time.
Good news is that I found my problem. I finally realized that I had changed my take-away from a one-piece to an early wrist cock. This made my backswing too big and took all the good elements away. After I changed this little thing, the easy repeatable swing with outstanding results returned. Sit down, S&T er’s because my driver is more consistent and long that it has ever been…ever.
I know first hand how frustrating it is to have a great game and then lose it to some unknown factor. I think that when I was playing great, it made me a little cocky and more relaxed in my discipline with the one-piece take-away. Anyway, I am very pleased but know full well that I might get careless again. My advice is to stick with it, go to the fundamentals again and again and you will get it back. Good luck!
Tried it on the course for the first time yesterday with others present. On the range, one of our group said I was reverse pivoting. I said thanks and went on about my business. Hit the best tee shots of my life. Everyone in the group commented on how well I was hitting the ball. I didn’t score any better and had some bad shots, but I was noticeably improved in ball contact, distance and accurancy. Just need to pull it all together now.
I read about the SAT in Golf Digest and watched a few videos on YouTube and went to the course last night and without hitting any practices balls, jumped up to the 1st tee and I bogeyed the first 4 holes and parred the next nine. Ended up shooting 78 but more impressed with the way I consistently hit the ball solid and crisp. I’m 62 yrs old with a 13 hcp. I was really impressed with the swing. Can’t way to go out today and see if it was a fluke.
Stack and Tilt works great! BUT, it has it’s secrets… It has been my natural swing since the start. This is my first year of taking golf seriously and getting out to play more than once or twice a season. Now I’m out 3 to 4 times a week on the range hitting 200 balls or playing rounds. It is possible to get good distance with a driver. I can regularly drive over 300 yards with S+T. I have noticed the “on and off” days everyone keeps talking about…and after 2 or 3 weeks my swing did get messed up a little just like everyone describes. So I started thinking…why would my swing be awesome and then for no reason start losing power, and hitting crap shots…? I took video upon video and anylized my good swings from my bad swings and what I found is that when I first started getting out this year I was really loading up well, loading the shaft and driving my hips forward…producing a powerful swing with a lot of consistancy. A great S+T. As this season has gone on, I’ve gotten more flexible from the S+T (Left arm, back, mid section). That’s where the problem lies for most people that they don’t notice… My back swing was getting farther and farther back, my wrists were cocking further, my left knee was dropping farther, and because of all this my weight wasn’t driving forward on impact. I, in a sence, got so flexible I couldn’t properly load my club, and the farther I went back looking for the powerful “coiled” feeling I found at the begining of the season, the more my timing and swing angle got out of hand. So, looking back for all of you other S+T’ers out there, make sure you check your angles (wrist cock and left knee flex especially), and don’t let your increased flexibility ruin your great new swing. Just slow it down and concentrate on driving forward and opening your hips. If not you’ll probably wind up driving your body more up, than up and forward…zapping your power and leading to those “on and off” days. One more thing I’ve found that is suppose to be a big no no is that S+T works a lot better if you keep your arms straight at address, rather than letting them hang down naturaly. Think of yourself as a giant pendulum. Keep the shaft and your arms on a 45 degree plane all the way through your back swing. It kind of feels like swinging a bat but it feels natural and easy because of the left shoulder dip and forward lean. Keep your back at a 45 and your club plane at a 45 degree angle and you’ll drive like a champ, a little steeper for irons. (I also use a bat style grip, not over laping my pinkies at all) This helps keep the club face square and leads to consistancy. If you are having problems with contact, try bringing the club back shallower (like a bat) on your back swing. DON’T FORGET TO DRIVE YOUR HIPS FORWARD/UP AND OPEN THEM UP. Also remember on your back swing your knee should point to the ball as it flexes, and your right knee should straighten. Don’t over flex your left or you’ll come in way too steep and take a divit. As you get more flexible, you’ll have to think about these things and check yourself. One more thing, tee your ball up so that the top of the driver head is lined up about 3/4 up the ball, and in the middle of your stance. Any higher or forward and you’ll lose distance and power. Throw all of that ball forward in your stance and tee up higher crap out the window for this swing style or you’ll suffer and be stroking your 5wd (off the carpet) just as far as your driver. Good luck.
Jorell
If you have any questions or want to see more video feel free to contact me at JorellR40@gmail.com
*search for “Jorell’s Stack and Tilt” on You Tube if you want to see a good example of when I was starting to lose my shot. You’ll see the over cocked wrists, and no hip thrust forward. But it will give you a general idea of where to start. (Keep in mind I forgot my cleats that day, and your left foot shouldn’t turn as much as mine in the video.)
I developed a very similar swing to the S&T on my own and once I incorporated the full idea of S&T my game is consistent and solid on almost every round.
In my mind this is the simplest swing to use because I only focus on two elements for every swing. I do not use the S&T on my driver tee shots however. I consistently hit my irons with a great trajectory and that awesome svvvvttttt sound as the ball launches off the club face and cuts through the air.
The biggest part of using S&T for me is to concentrate on nearly straightening my back leg on the take away and at the top of the backswing. Really feel the torqueing of your thigh as you turn against the posted back leg but without putting too much weight on it. Then simply drop the club down on the ball. Very easy to work a nice draw into the game at any time.
This swing has been working for me for the past five years or so and it is very easy to refresh your swing by reading the Golf Digest article and remembering the swing keys.
At the suggestion of an old pro who played the tour some during Sam Snead’ days I began stack and tilt in the late 90s after shoulder surgery forced me to switch from a right hander to left. Old Pro told me that I could cure my tendency to hit irons a bit fat by edging head forward slightly in backswing and backward slightly in downswing – a move he had observed in Snead’s swing. Since I’d been a low handicap player righthanded this didn’t result in a reverse pivot and I have been able to hit just explosive and accurate trapped iron shots ever since.
What I have fought continuously is a tendency to hit driver and fairway woods too low and snap hooky. So while I am sold on stack and tilt for irons I think you have to have different swing thoughts and technique to hit the ball with woods or hybrids where you can’t trap it.
I’m wondering if this isn’t why Mike Weir and Baddeley have changed instructors. Anyone have similar problems or ideas to help make a great technique for irons work for woods? Thanks.
Bob z. made a great comment about the right leg. I had let that go a bit and hadn’t been stretching it straight. I had lost the ability to draw the ball and was fading it – over the top too.
Just that fix seemed to get the swing back on track. Draw is back with driver and distance too.
Nick Clearwater is an S&T instructor of Bennett and Plummer. He has some excellent drills on youtube. Just do a search. The drills and check points seem to be missing from the DVD set – though it is good.
He has a great drill with tees under each armpit to force you to think “hands on the body.”
No reason you shouldn’t use S&T for both irons and woods.
Stack/Tilt is very simple to apply when you understand the technique and can be monitored by a trained teacher.I feel it has been misunderstood, and taken extreme by some. I can help sort this out for you.
I thought some of the close up shots of Tiger legs yesterday in the WGC event were very enlightening. I won’t go so far as to say he was using S&T, but he was definitely stacking, on the wedge shots especially.
I no longer employ S&T in the classical sense, but having gone there once I can never go back to a more traditional swing. These days I stack my weight forward, but I keep my head behind the ball until well past impact. The result is the most accuracy I have ever had throughout my bag from driver to L-wedge. Keeping my head behoind the ball makes it very easy to clear and get my club head moving down the line.
Has anyone else tried setting up with your head behind the ball but still keeping weight forward like S&T? How has it worked for you?
Like you, SATX Golfer, I no longer employ S&T in the traditional sense; however, I have learned from S&T the importance of having your center of gravity on the left side at the top of your swing. Not being able to get ones weight shifted onto the left leg/pivot point on the downswing is a major factor to an inconsistent swing. I, now, use a hogan style pivot for my golfswing in which, I, too, set up with my head behind the ball. When I take the club to the top on the backswing, I shift my weight onto my left side by moving my lumbar spine towards the target while my thoractic and cervical spine are angled away from the target.
This backswing position keeps my head behind the ball all the way through the swing. By doing this I have gained alot of more power, accuracy, and consistency because I don’t have to make a linear motion toward the target to start the downswing. I simply turn my hips to start the downswing as Mr. Hogan says to do in “Five Lessons.” By doing this my body rotates as opposed to sliding towards the target, which results in rotational power.
I started using the S&T in June of this year. I have shot in the low 80s with it several times now and am convinced it is the swing for me. It is so easy to control and repeat that I have become very, very consistent with it, despite the fact I do not play very often. The only problem is the driver. I have tried and tried but just can’t get the distance I need. 3-wood works great but driver only gets me an extra 5-10 yards. Of course, I have not been re-fitted for a driver since switching to the S&T, and that may very well be the problem. If anyone else has had luck with a re-fit based on the S&T, let me know.
So I’m new to golf, bought some cheap clubs this year and have gotten on the course a few times as well as the range. I was having a horrible slice, especially with my driver. Off the tee the ball would start out straight and then take one of those horrrible 90 degree turns, and it didn’t end up in the rough, not even in the fairway of the next hole over, but in the rough on the opposite side of the fairway of the next hole over (yikes). So i was doing research on how to correct the slice, tried a few things, changing the grip, changing where the ball lies at the feet. Then I found a video on youtube of a guy that had a horrible slice like mine, and he tried this S&T method, now he hits 80% of his drives straight. So I gave it a try at the range. Much Much Straighter! I think i’m still pushing them to the right a bit, hard to tell when i don’t have trees (or another fairway) to the right side at the range. But the ball doesn’t take a 90* turn. I’m going to hit the range a couple more times this week to practice it before my tee time next friday. I’ll report back and see how many strokes i’ve taken off from my last couple rounds (note i’m new to golf, I could take off a lot of strokes hopefully since i’ve been shooting 115-120)
Steve, if you can’t tell whether you are still hitting the ball to the right then the first thing you need to do is stand behind the ball and pick out a target.
Unfortunately, new golfers have very little idea about how to “play” golf when they start out and picking a target is “Golf 101”. Whether Jack Nicklaus in “Golf My Way” or Harvey Penick’s advice of “Take dead aim!” they all say you have to know where you are going to try to hit the ball before you swing. This is especially true of practice. There is no point in hitting shot after shot without a defined target. So…
Stand 8 ft behind your ball. Pick a target in the distance, i.e. a flag, and then mentally draw a line back to your ball. Pick a spot, i.e. a weed, a brown spot, etc., that lies exactly on that line but is only a few feet out in front of you. Now align yourself to hit the ball over that spot.
If you do this every time you hit a ball (even putting) you will quickly learn when you are hitting a ball on target, and even better…. you will hit it at the target!!
Finally, the driver…
With wedges and short irons I believe the tradtional S&T works pretty well. But, as the clubs get longer my instructor has me moving my head behind the ball and keeping it there through impact. This is a modification of S and T that many of the pros use, even the ones who don’t proclaim to be “stacked”. Give that a try with your driver. I think you will find it a lot easier to get it moving down the line letting you hit straighter drives.
After being out of golf for most of the last 10 years, I am trying to get back into it now. I’ve only played a few rounds this year and have hit as bad as I did 10 years ago (I usually shoot in the 90s). I decided to try S&T after stumbling onto the DG articles and have noticed some improvement in my mid to short irons. I am now hitting my 9 iron the same distance as I used to hit my 7 iron (150 yards). My question is how does S&T affect equipment selection? I am playing with 20+ year old Hogan Magnum irons and want to upgrade to something new (hybrids?) and want to know if using the S&T will affect the type of clubs I should buy. Custom fitting would be great, but I did not really want to spend that much money.
I will be curious to hear what others might have to say, Jim, but I am not sure how S&T would affect equipment choice with the exception of possibly letting you play more of a “player’s” club. Those old Magnums represent a brief stopping point in club design, and I have no doubt more modern clubs will help your game.
If you are seriously thinking about changing clubs and employing S and T then I would work with your existing clubs for a while until you have the S and T more grooved in. Use some impact tape on your club faces to see where you are hitting the ball. If you are making consistent contact in the middle of the club face as I think you might with S and T then take a look at some of the less dramatically cavity backed irons on the market. Look at something like a Mizuno MX 100 or similar. And make sure you put a hybrid or two in your bag, too!! You will never look back from those!
Good luck!
I’m a 43 year old 3 handicap (was a 7 before S&T) and in my whole life never swung the golf club the same two rounds in a row. Before each shot, I would think about at least 5 things, and not always the same 5 things! I got so sick of wondering what I was doing before each shot, I decided I needed a set and specific swing. That’s when I looked in to S&T. I didn’t buy the DVD’s, I just Googled it and watched a bunch of videos pictures. Without practicing at the range, I went out and tried it the next day. It took a few holes to have it feel somewhat right, but the results were nothing less than amazing. I’ve since hit about 1,000 range balls over the past month or so and all I can say is WOW.
My distance is no less than 25 yards further on drives, and I’m back to hitting 8 iron from 155-160 (which I used to do when I was 20). There is a feel with S&T that is hard to describe. To me, it feels like I am pushing the ball in the right direction instead of hitting it if that makes sense. As a former hockey player, I can say that it’s like when you take a slap shot, your swing plane is from the inside, 75% to parallel, and your body starts and moves towards the target during the swing. Just like S&T. An amazing resmblance.
I feel that there are two keys to get S&T right. One is to not over swing. You get the distance without needing to swing hard. Second is to stop your back swing before parallel. I will never ever change swings again.
I’ve been using S&T since the Golf Digest article and I have had great success. More consistent day to day with ball stricking and that was my objective. Have shot my lowest scores and rarely have a terrible round. The difficult thing is to teach yourself through a vedio and trial and error. I want to get some instruction on the finer point and to also validate that I am executing the S&T principles correctly.
DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THERE ARE TEACHERS AVAILABLE or SCHOOLS TO ATTEND?
I love the S&T but I have to say that the entire swing is easier and dreamlike-effective when you allow your arms to hang straight down, keeping the upper arms attached to the torso but relaxed still, and set the hands low and close.
That may really help the guys who are having serious shanking and ball flight problems. If you get those hands dropped low, and keep them there when you start the swing, it is so so easy to start that club back with the front knee bending, the back leg straightnening, and the front shoulder almost takes itself back down and around.
I’m a lefty so I use terms like front and back instead of left and right when sharing notes.
http://thegolfevolution.com/ is one of the first, I believe.
Erik: thanks for the heads up on that. I’m close enough to Erie (5 hrs) that I am seriously going to sign up for an up copming clinic.
My S&T is OK, but am getting away from nice draws – too many slices.
They have a full day clinic coming up there on Friday Sept. 25.I went to the website and it’s $350 for all day (9-5) plus lunch and drinks. 12 max sign-up 4 instructors.
Pretty cool, maybe a trip to the R&R Hall of Fame on the way home.
Anyone else thinking of going?
Tom L.
dude, i have learned a lot from reading almost every comment on this page-
I have been playing golf seriously for 3 years now- self dubbed 14 handicapish-
as i took up golf i naturally was inclined toward the S&T swing, but didn’t know what it was called- then i bought tigers book, hogans etc and tried to make my swing traditional with bad results– many good fundamentals i learned but i always naturally went back to weight on left foot-
now that i have read enough about this i realize this is what i need to study and learn so i can continue to work on a swing that FEELS natural to me. i have always been a good ball striker because of this technique- when i stray from it i suck so bad
thanks to everyone for the comments and information posting
That’s the odd thing, as I see it. The more you look at Stack and Tilt the more you realize that Tiger’s swing (under Haney), Ben Hogan’s swing, etc. is quite “stack-and-tilty.” Almost all of the best players have 90+% or so “stack and tilt” swings with small variations in other parts.
Tiger’s old swing, under Butch, well that was probably 70% or so. Sean O’Hair’s swing is nearly 100% stack and tilt. Sergio is in the high 90s.
I have read so many blogs and comments within them by people who feel the stack and tilt does not work, is a band-aid, will work for a bit then stop, or that it is bad for your back and on and on it goes.
The problem with all of this is that it is people who have no idea what they are talking about because they have not tried it or have not seriously tried it.
Every single thing I have heard negative about the stack and tilt is just the exact opposite of the facts. I highly encourage anyone interested to try it and stick with it, don’t just assume you are doing it right because you read the golf digest article. It is not well written and some of the things said in the articles are simple worded wrong for someone trying to learn the swing. buy the DVD’s. I bought mine on eBay for $40 you don’t have to spend $100. You wont be able to improve by taking one lesson for $40 or spending that much in range balls as much as you will by buying the dvd’s or going to a stack and tilt instructor.
Anyway it is retarded when someone says that it worked for a while great and then just stopped working for them. Obviously you changed something that made is stop. This happens all the time even with a traditional swing. The problem is that you don’t realize it. An instructor can point out your problem but the golf digest article is not detailed enough to show you what you are doing. The dvd’s are very detailed and will help a ton with correcting problems you introduce yourself.
So as you can see I love the stack and tilt. I have never hit balls so good in 8 years of play as I have in the last month using stack and tilt. I started with the article and info I could find online. I was doing wonderful then I lost it. I was not sure what I was doing wrong so I bought the dvd’s on eBay and found that I was not really even doing it right. There were several things I was doing absolutely wrong. However from the description from the golf digest article I thought I was doing it right. I then started doing great again and over the weeks I have lost it several times. Each time I simple was changing something in my swing as I got more comfortable with the stack and tilt. I kept introducing elements from a traditional swing. Using the DVD’s which are very detailed I have been able to fix each one I introduced and I just keep getting better and better.
So don’t give up if you start to plateau you are most likely doing something wrong and just need further instruction. But don’t believe any of the crap it is all hogwash.
Is it bad for your back?
-I have a bad back and it is much easier for me.
Is it not for beginners?
-This is ridiculous, the biggest problem beginners have is with their weight shift. They are always swinging back and forth. Eliminate this and they can start hitting the ball right away. I took my dad to the driving range for the first time in his life. I just told him to simply try hitting some balls and see what happens. Of course he was swinging back and forth and topping the ball just like we all did. Then I started introducing the stack and tilt to him in simple steps. First we just eliminated the swing and stayed stacked over the ball. Guess what he started hitting it immediately. How can anyone hit the ball when they are moving around like that. We have all learned to hit it by getting our timing right but that is inconsistent unless your are a pro. I just need to have him start using his body rotation now instead of his arms to get some power and then start working with him on the finer things. But all I can think of is all of the time I wasted over 8 years with the wrong swing. I could have gotten to where I am now in less than a year with stack and tilt.
What about it being harder to come from the inside out?
-More B.S. the stack and tilt really makes you come from the inside so much more than a traditional swing it is not even funny. Most people who are slicers like me, Immediately start hitting them straight or even with a draw! It is much harder to slice the ball with stack and tilt the path is way inside out in comparison.
Anyway off my soap box but I get so tired of hearing crap about this swing. If you want to keep wasting time on your old swing and making very little progress then go ahead otherwise just try the stack and tilt with proper instruction from the dvd’s and or a professional lesson and stick with it. You will wish you had done it years ago.
CaptainFishAStick – YOU ARE CORRECT!
I read the Golf Digest article -thought I knew Stack and Tilt cause I was hitting it better.
Swing went off base. Bought the DVD set and NOW I now Stack and Tilt – corrected many faults because we tend not see ourselves swing we just don’t know what we do wrong.
I finally took the S&T clinic at The Golf Evolution in Erie,PA a few weeks ago.
The guys were fantastic – they corrected SO many small errors from the grip to set-up and then I was hitting well again.
They use a lot of video. You MUST see your positions or you won’t get it. A big thanks to Dave and Steve for an incredible clinic day!
If you have to have a friend tape your swing or set up a camera – watch it back frame by frame if possible. Get the FREE V1golf software on line and load your video in there. Keep a record of the progression of your improvement – save your first videos and compare them to later shots. Really helped me a lot if you have a base view to start from.
Also, LOTS of YouTube videos of the S&T pattern from some good coaches. Just do a search.
It’s a great swing – but there is some learning and practising – but worth it.
Thanks CaptainFishStick
Your observations are spot-on. I couldn’t agree more with the journey we need to take, and making the inevitable rudder adjustments as we all tend to drift back to our old swing habits and then blame the system as a failure.
S&T is solid, and if you like seeing (and collecting) the rewards that come from solid shotmaking, it is well worth the muscle memory training.
Yep Tailspin…. been there for a long time.. went to Hank Haney’s place 3 different times and each time was shooting close to par as a result of intensive instruction and then it went away each time. I’m going to condense the why’s real briefly and then share my thoughts on stack and tilt…. still too early as with going to Hanks. Difference is I did this on my own. I think it helps a lot to have a very good understanding of what makes the golf ball do what it does. In other words I have had so much good golf instruction I really do understand what it takes to produce a good golf swing. The problem in a nutshell is with Hanks “hogan swing” or should I now say “Tiger’s swing”, it is VERY difficult to produce consistency and once you lose confidence in all the timing that goes on with that technique, YOU ARE TOAST and it really is exemplified in pressure. Enough of that. Before I get into the stack and tilt with me, I will say I agree with a number of readings and that if you have a tendancy to come “over the top” or slice the ball with moves that promote that, it probably is not for you. I have always been a drawer of the ball and my tendancy has been to not be solid with irons on a consistent basis by not being able to swing with a descending blow into the golf ball which is what you need. I’ve always been a good driver of the ball, however my faults with ball striking with “Hanks” methods have been having a tendancy to hit the ball flat or feel very anxious as I approach the ball after a shift to the right side. ALL GONE with S&T !!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m telln ya I am hitting the most incredible iron shots I have hit in years !!!!! Because that was such an instant fix I’m going to focus my thoughts to you on why I THINK it has worked for me.. first of all, as many have said, the tendancy is to, for some reason, lose distance on the driver. I have actually added length in addition to repeating the swing more because of the balance and the confidence to swing as LONG as I can while retaining balance. JUST GO FOR IT and trust it. The iron play goes without saying … again because my tendancy was always to hit shots fat which over time causes you to lose so much confidence, it compounds itself. If I can give you one tip which has seemed to work for this golfer who has always been a player which can easily draw the ball but whose iron play has STUNK !!!! Start with that stack if you will on the left side and stay there.. that goes without saying… I will say on the tilt side of things… still stay VERY balanced over your feet .. just like you would doing anything athletic.. don’t get too caught up in the TILT… The one and only technique of staying 70 percent or so on your left side will produce great solid iron shots. I HOPE THIS HELPS !! I’ll be back in touch
Put me in the same camp as those who tried it, had some success, but then it went away (shanks!). In any case, I decided to go see a professional and he was able to correct some of the small things I had been doing wrong. What I like most about S&T is the high draw pattern. I literally took dozens of lessons on my conventional swing trying to rid myself of the OTT swing, and coming outside-in to the ball. Nothing worked, and the best I could muster was a playable fade. With S&T, for the first time ever, I am now hitting true draws that start right, and curve back towards my target.
There are elements of S&T in Bobby Clampett’s book, THE IMPACT ZONE. He emphasizes the divot being in front of the ball and properly keeping the lag in the swing. I have taken a little of both but am more into Bobby’s writings at this time. Both the S&T inventors and Bobby give credit to THE GOLFING MACHINE so they are not far off from each other. I recommend that if you like the prinicples of S&T, give THE IMPACT ZONE a read.
I haven’t posted here for a while, and during that time my game has come and gone, and come and gone again using S&T, but I have never condsidered going back to a conventional swing. Okay, that’s a lie! I will admit to having made a few conventional swings at the driving range when my swing hasn’t been good, but I have stayed the course with S&T for around a year now. When I am playing well I have never struck the ball so purely as I do with S&T.
Here are a few observations from my experiences the past year…
It is still golf.
It is not an easy game, and even with S&T you still have to make good swings to play well.
S&T is not for everyone, which means anyone who doesn’t take the journey willingly. It works for me because I am tall and I was always concerned about keeping my head very steady when I was over the ball. The S&T works well with that mindset and the S&T swing theory seemed intuitive to me even before I tried it out at the range the first time.
S&T is not a siler bullet. It takes practice, commitment, and for me, a while to trust.
S&T can be difficult on uneven lies, especially at first.
I find I need two swings. I use a different philosophy with my driver or 3-wood/2-hybrid from the tee. S&T is for everything else. If you ever saw Bob Costis’ analysis of Robert Allenby’s swing done with triangles then you will know what I mean.
I believe the videos are wrong one one important point. The head and spine angle. The head must be slightly behind the ball at impact to be consistent, and therefore, be so at address. I have had my S&T swing analyzed in a full motion 3D computer model and it showed me the geometry of why this is so. For those of you who may struggle with S&T now and then I highly recommend giving this slight adjustment a try!
I have stopped thinking of it as S&T. The tilt gets me in trouble. These days I think of my swing as “Weight Forward” and you don’t have to look very hard on tour to see that most of the major pros are stacked in one form or another!
Weight shift is so hard for beginners, and even for those in their second or third year of playing golf. Conventional teaching about the “correct” swing seems to have too many moving parts. First you have to shift your weight to the right in just the correct way; and then you have to shift your weight back to the left in just the correct way. On paper and in videos S&T pretty much seems to eliminate the rightward shift, thus reducing by half the number of correct shifts needed for a successful swing–for this reason alone I am about to try S&T.
Play well in the new year….
I tried the Stack and Tilt for the summer of 2008. I dropped from a 10 to 7 hdcp, and had my best ball striking rounds of the last 10 years. Unfortunately I was not putting well but still had 4 rounds of 76 (4 over) at my fairly tough par 72 course. After skying a few drives I have gone away from it until last week. I realized that even though I have putted better in 2009 my ball stiking was worse than the S&Tand my hdcp eased up about .8. I’m going back to it, and from just one day on the range, my iron play seemed solid again.
I’ve always had a problem of consistantly getting off my right side. I’ve taken lessons from a host of pros, tried different approaches in loading my right side & practiced every free moment I had but could not consistantly shift my weight forward through the swing.
I became so frustrated, I was desperate for help, so when I came across the S &T info comercial I figured I’d give it a try.
I made a 1 year committment to this new technigue practicing indoors 2 months before last season began and sticking with it throughout last year.
It worked for me, no more getting caught with my weight back, cleaner contact & more consistant distances especially with my irons. I must admit off the tee it can be a little tricky but other than losing a little bit of distance on my best drives, a much higher percentage of drives finding the fairways.(no longer being the king of the recovery shot)
You’ll still have good and bad days, its not magical but it is fairly easy technique to learn if you commit to it.
I have not started using S&T yet, have read through most of this forum and am dying to try it out (this weekend). I am a bit worried that most of the comments seem to come from inside-out right-handed players. I can’t wait to see what happens to my outside-in left-handed slice:-). Will post when I find out!
I am a 10 handicap lady golfer and tried this swing on the advice of an american pro we met whilst on holiday. Like some of your other bloggers I don’t think I use it all but I do the “stack” bit but have trouble with the transition and tend to chop down on the ball with my driver. However, it has worked miracles for my long fairway woods. After years of catching the ball slightly fat and no pro ever being able to cure it or tell my why the Stack and Tilt has solved the problem. My advice is that there is something in this swing for everybody. Try it!!
I really thought I would watch the DVD’s then send them back for my “full refund”. I was wrong! Best $100 bucks I have ever spent.
I used to be a consistant low 80’s shooter. For some reason, I have had trouble breaking 90 for some time, even with an occasional lesson.
Within hours of viewing the DVD’s a couple of times, I was on the range hitting straight, solid shots!
For me, certain aspects of the SNT turned out to be things I naturally wanted to do already naturally (straighten right leg on back swing).
I think the coolest aspect is that I almost never am “Over the top”. This is something that I have fought forever!
My swing continues to improve every day (it has only been one week). Tonight at the range, I only hit one fat shot, my fault for not setting my weight forward enough.
I played 3 rounds this week, all low 80’s. I am confident the 70’s are near by!!!!
LOVE IT,
Mark
Last year I was an 8 handicap and decided to investigate the potential gains that could be achieved from studying and implementing the stack and tilt golf swing. I am a self-taught golfer and already had a natural tendency to create a “reverse C” on my backswing i.e., weight stays on the left side. After practicing this swing for a few weeks, my iron shots began to fly incredibly straight. In addition, I’ve been driving the ball further than ever–averaging nearly 300yrds. (I’m 49yrs old and only 5ft-9in). Everyone was saying that without the weight transfer, you would never hit the driver as far. What they didn’t count on was the rotational factor in this swing. Last week, I nearly broke my home course record of 31 (bogeyed the last hole and ended up with a 32 because I wasn’t going to lay up with a chance to take the record if I made a birdie after a great drive around the dogleg-left par 5). This is a 9-hole par 36, 6350 yards, rating of 35.1 and a slope of 113. Had I not missed that second shot with my 3-wood, I might very well have ended up with a 30! I’m sticking with this swing!
A friend let me read the book on SAT so I tried it. I always thought that explanations of the golf swing were a bit like asking how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.
Weight is 60/40 on left foot. Start of swing left shoulder tilts towards the ball and this amazingly opens up shoulder turn on head spine axis. There is not that hit or miss transfer of weight. it remains on left side.
The arms shoulder close to torso swing reaches max just beyond horizontal to maybe 30 degrees. The start of downswing is hip movement to right and use of earth as push up for release of power through the swing. It is basically a golf swing which has elements of proper power release.
Its not an entity in itself as if it is “a” method! I think thats where people get confused. It is a simple economic way to limit the imponderables and deliver a predictable swing.
It works for me especially on fairway hybrids and also on driver shots as the release is inside to out with no flying high right arm.
They are right when they say that the commonest error for most “hackers” is taking the club straight back from the ball. This taking it straight back defies the elyptical swing around the body.
It works!.
I returned to playing golf about 4 years ago after a long hiatus. At one time I played in the single digit range based on long drives and a fairly decent short game. At age 64 when I returned, I had neither the long game nor the short game and have been struggling as an 18. I then read the Stan Utley Golf Digest article and all of a sudden my short game improved drastically. Utley emphasizes keeping the weight on the left side. Since that worked so well for pitch shots I began experimenting with it on full shots. I had moderate success but still was not happy. I did some research on the web and found information about the Stack and Tilt. I bought the book and had very good success at first. As others have mentioned it did seem to fade a bit with time. I have since discovered that because so much of Stack and Tilt (especially sliding the hips forward) directly contradicted what I had been doing for so many years, that I kept slipping back into old habits without realizing it. I felt like was doing everything right but after watching a few videos I realized I was simply rotating my upper body and not sliding my hips forward.
I believe in the system because it basically simplifies every thing and allows for more consistency. I don’t expect to ever get my old distances back but I am hitting my irons are going much longer and with a much more narrow dispersal pattern which has meant I have been having a lot more birdie opportunities. Now all I need to do is sink the birdie putts
One negative comment I see about S&T is that not many pros use it with success. I think the reason is pretty simple. Most pros hit the driver with a dramatic weight shift from the back to the front foot. That dramatic shift, when executed perfectly, will result in tremendous distance. But I, like many, can’t execute that weight shift consistently. That’s why S&T is much better for me. I’ve lost 10% distance on my drives, but gained much in consistency.
If you can play 90 holes and hit 2,000 balls a week, if you have great natural eye-hand coordiation, and if you have a teaching pro available to perform constant video analysis of your swing – then I’m convinced that the conventional two-plane swing will outperform S&T with the driver.
For the rest of us, long live S&T!
Dan, with all due respect, S&T is likely being misapplied in your case. If I had to guess I’d say you’ve taught yourself, and you’re likely not doing things quite right. S&T does not cause distance loss, and in fact moving your weight well to the right and then well to the left is a slower way to swing the club.
Troy Matteson’s not a short hitter. Charlie Wi isn’t big but look at his final two rounds at the AT&T this year – they were marveling at how far he was hitting the ball.
P.S. Did you play in the 2009 Chilliwack Open? 🙂
Read the book only, Started full SnT swing May ’10 as a 13 hdcp…went to a 19 hdcp, now AUG ’10 at 16 hdcp and coming down. Made commitment to stay with it. Short game suffered as too much concentration on main SnT swing…there was no instruction on short game SnT. Coming along nicely, straight to draw irons/driver, lost my seasonal ‘golfers elbow’, as you hit the ball first, not the ground. Takes quite some time to find the all important ‘downward’ shoulder turn, which is critical and sets the whole swing up. Swing is much more consistant and powerful…will never go back to traditional. It’s a work in progress, with plenty of light at end of tunnel. Give it a full year, as it is a full swing change…especially for the over 50 crowd!
Watched the DVDs, which I found pretty confusing. Had only spotty success implementing what they were advocating. Because of this, I stopped trying to use SNT for a couple of months.
Then I read the book and everything in the videos suddenly came together.
Highly recommend reading the book before watching the DVDs.
SNT has done much to improve my shots and overall game.
I just tried it and my irons are deadly accurate but I have lost 5 to 10 percent of my usual yardage. I am sure that my technique is not consistent with their instructions but I haven’t found the answer to the distance loss.
I love it. The first time I tried it I felt like I was back in college. Before I had any lessons I was hitting the SNT naturally. Feels great to get back to that.
My big question is “How do I get instruction from someone who knows and has equipment to facilitate?” The pro here laughs at me when I ask and he tells me he will not teach a “reverse pivot”. Yikes. I’ve gone as far as I can with the book and videos – I need a pro teacher. The other problem is that I live in Massachusetts.
Alainz said: “I need a pro teacher.”
Correct. Your guy doesn’t understand the golf swing.
For positive S&T reinforcement go thegolfevolution.com forum. Lots of good tips and videos and support from members who use S&T.
Their evolvr video coaching can work for you if you can’t travel to Erie.
I’ve done 2 on location clinics there. Simply put: top notch guys!!!!!!
I began S&T in our golf dome over the winter, on a lark.. Nothing happened early on in the season then…70’s consistently. I hit more greens than ever before and hit a lot in my best rounds close. I struggled in August and September but seemed to overcome that later on.
I just had a S&T lesson from one of their instructors. The lesson over, I realized what I was doing and what I need to be doing were 180 degrees apart. Needless to say the term should be called Stack and Thrust or Stack and Jump. My problems are on the downswing – I have trouble leading with the butt of the club into the ball and I have trouble getting my spine to bent back through impact. These are things I will work on over the winter.
I had been using the one plane swing prior but my consistency was nothing like it is with S&T.
I would recommend it to anyone that wants to improve. And clearly the greatest problem with amateurs is swaying – or moving the weight laterally too much. S&T prevents that from happening.
Yet I dropped my average to 79 and my handicap to 6.1.
Headed to Orlando for a week – any quality SNT instruction available near there?
I used the S&T in 2008 & 2009 and got down to my lowest index ever (9.64). But some flaws got into my swing and then I hurt my knee so I gave up on stacking. Then I tried keeping my weight level with a sway into the ball as Hunter Mahan describes in an earlier Golf Magazine article. I play on weekends and just don’t put the time into the game to be very consistant. I am back up to a 14 index. Now that my knee is strong again, I am just going back to the S&T. I will let you know how I fair down the road.
Wow, stack and tilt has improved all aspects of my game. Started last year in september after finding golf digest article on line, went to range and imediatly hit the ball clean and straight. My distances stayed the same but my control from wedge to 6 iron was greatly improved, lower flight but more backspin!
Over the winter i concentrated on my short game using stan utleys book as he also teaches chipping and pitching with weight kept on left side thru the swing.
First couple of rounds this spring were very satisfying, breaking 80 for the first time two weeks running and then my best round ever a 75 two weeks ago which included my first hole in one and my first eagle 2!
Only used the book so far and really struggled with the driver for a while, but have tweaked my set up and ball position and now happily driving 250 – 265 straight 8 times out of 10.
Having only played golf for 5/6 years i feel stack and tilt has given me a chance at becoming a single figure player so will def be sticking with it and prob get video this summer.
i have been using the stack and tilt for several months and i am very impressed with the results. i have been hitting the ball longer and straighter than ever before. It has completly fixed my casting and and aloud me to hit a very consistent draw. since switching i have moved to the back tees and been able to shoot in the mid to high thirties every time. even now as i am 16 and have gone back to school my highest score has been a 42 and that was do to four 3 putts
I have tried the S & T swing for a month. Ball contact with irons is better and more consistent With the driver I do get some extra distance.
With the irons I pre-set the lower body at the set-up ie left knee pointing forward and right knee slightly straightened. On the backswing I just focus on pushing the left shoulder down and pulling the hands in and up.
With the driver at set up I push the hips towards the target and keep the weight there. Then just do the backswing just like with the irons.
However I do get occasional slightly thin shots with the irons. I guess that is due to my old habit of lifting my head up before impact.