Joe Mama

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2011-04/butch-harmon-uneven-lies On the web page above, Butch Harmon says that when the ball is below the feet, one's swing tends to be more upright, which fosters a delay in the closing of the club face, which in turn causes a ball flight to the right. So, aim left, he says. I've experienced the same thing with my irons many times when the ball is below my feet, and found that aiming left does, indeed help. Have other readers in this forum noticed the same thing? Harmon doesn't explain WHY a more upright stance inhibits the closing of the club face, so I looked for an explanation. I found that the more upright my stance, the harder it is for my right forearm to roll over the left forearm on the down swing. Naturally, that inhibits the closing of the face in time to make a square impact; the face is open at impact, and the ball sails to the right. To help fix the problem, I aim left, just as Harmon says I should. The opposite happens when the ball is above the feet. I find that the more horizontal my arms are, the more rapidly does my right forearm roll over the left forearm on the down swing. This cause a closing of the face that is too rapid; consequently, the face arrives closed at impact, sending the ball to the left. The "fix" is to aim right when the ball is above the feet. You can easily test this by swinging a seven iron on a more horizontal plane than usual, and then along a more vertical plane. In the first case, does your right forearm seem to relatively easily roll over the left forearm, and in the second case, is it harder for that to happen?

A quarter of an inch above your feet would make even less of a difference. Pick an even smaller number, and there would be virtually no difference. But, I'm not talking about half an inch; I'm talking about a difference that I thnk matters, such as, say, two inches.

You say you can prove Butch wrong. Just because he's perhaps the most successful, most respected golf coach of our generation doesn't mean he's always right. I believe you're both right, rather than you're right 100%, and he's 100% wrong. You mentioned the extreme case of a 60 degree at shoulder height. There is no doubt that the face at setup would be well closed, as you said. However, if you swing that club horizontally, you will find that the right forearm NATURALLY rolls counter-clockwise over the left forearm. In order to prevent this from happening, some serious (unnatural) clockwise torque must be applied by your hands. Thus, there are TWO effects, each of which causes a more rapid face closing. Perhaps the effect you point out is dominant in the extreme scenario you present, but maybe not. In the more common case of a ball a couple of inches above your feet, the face of a seven-iron is only barely noticeably closed. The swing dynamics in both scenarios will be about the same, so the effects of the forearm rolling we're debating would be proportionately more important than it is in your extreme case. That doesn't prove that rolling is the dominant factor in face closing. I don't know which effect dominates, and under what conditions, but I think I DO know that BOTH effects contribute to a face closing. With a seven iron and a ball two inches above your feet, the static face closing at setup is very small, so perhaps dynamic face closing caused by forearm rolling is the dominant effect. How would you prove otherwise. No equations, please; just common sense.

This quote from Butch Harmon about swinging at a ball below your feet seems to support my view that the cause of the shot to the right is in the forearms, which he says are under-rotated (counter-clockwise), while I said that I thought the forearms were in fact rotated clockwise. Under-rotating counter-clockwise amounts to the same effect as a rotation clockwise: not enough counter-clockwise forearm rotation, preventing the face from closing soon enough, causing a shot to the right. Harmon says nothing about loft pointing the face to the right being the cause. Read what he says here about the swing when the ball below is below your feet: "...your swing will tend to be more up and down, which means less clubface rotation, so aim left to guard against missing to the right." Harmon's comments are on the web page at http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2011-04/butch-harmon-uneven-lies One can test this effect by rotating the iron in a horizontal plane. The forearms naturally rotate counter-clockwise, closing the face. Now, swing in as near to a vertical plane as possible: the forearms tend to rotate clockwise, opening the face.

So, a more upright swing arc does not encourage a rolling of the forearms clockwise, in general?

I use a four-knuckle grip and never, ever, have hit the kind of shot you describe. A strong grip keeps the face squarer to the arc longer, making it easier to return the face square to the ball at impact.

I think it is psychological. Teeing the ball higher encourages one stand more upright in order to hit up more on the ball; the swing arc is therefore more upright, which tends to force the forearms to rotate clockwise, which opens the face and causes a slice. It's the same effect (though not psychological in orign), I believe, as when you swing at a ball below your feet: the swing plane tends to be somewhat higher, the face opens more, and the ball is hit to the right. Hence the general rule: if it's below your feet, aim left.

I just returned from the range after testing to see if I could increase my lob wedge distance. I had been hitting it 50 yards, and now it's 60. As for having three (or even four) different backswings for each of the four wedges (PW, Gap, Sand, and Lob), with each of the three distances marked on the wedges, I am sure that this a very workable solution. I have only one number marked on each of the four wedges. That number is for a full swing, but then I subtract five yards for a three-quarter swing. Should be no problem discovering the three distances for the three backswings for each club, then using a very small tip paint pen to write the three distances on the shaft.

The results I reportedt are for clean fairway lies. I haven't tested distances for other tyoes of lies. [quote name="Brian W" url="/t/76633/big-distance-gap-between-my-sand-and-lob-wedges#post_1042807"] My fix was at address, putting my wrists more forward than usual [/quote] [quote name="Golfingdad" url="/t/76633/big-distance-gap-between-my-sand-and-lob-wedges#post_1042884"]I've recently started adjusting my ball position to more easily cover a wider range of distances with full swings on my wedges. I learned that if I put the ball back in my stance and give it a little extra, I can add 5-10 yards to the Sw and LW. [/quote] OK. I think these two posters are recommending basically the same thing. At the range today I will put the ball farther back when I use the lob wedge. Or, tilt my shaff toward the target more; I think one is about the same as the other?

I checked the lofts at the golf store this afternoon, so the numbers I gave are correct. I don't think I'm flipping because I hit all my wedges equally well-- pure (sometimes). I just found the distances below on the website at [URL=http://www.leaderboard.com/LOFTINFO.htm]http://www.leaderboard.com/LOFTINFO.htm[/URL] These are the ranges for the average hitters on the PGA Tour. 4-Iron 210-220 9-Iron 140-155 5-Iron 195-205 Pitching Wedge 130-135 6-Iron 180-190 Gap Wedge (not used) 7-Iron 165-180 Sand Wedge 115-120 8-Iron 150-170 Lob Wedge 75-95 Note that the distance gaps between consecutive clubs are about 15 yards, down to the sand wedge, but when you get to the lob wedge, the gap is 40 yards! How can that be? That big gap is similar to what I have (30 yards between sand and lob, 10 yards everywhere else). Do others have similar huge gaps? Note added in edit: evidently, the solution is to add a 56-58 degree wedge to my bag.

Same swing both clubs, I think. What I failed to mention is that the sandwedge is a Ping blackeye, and my lob wedge is a Callaway Razr X.

My bag already has one club too many and my playing partners have complained about it (just teasing, they say).

I have a 54 degree sand wedge which I hit 80 yards and a 60 degree lob wedge that I hit only 50 yards. What do I do for the in-between distances? I don't want to change the loft on my sandwedge. Should I decrease the loft on my lob wedge? Or, just choke down on my sand wedge?

I think we're pretty much done with both the one-handed putting topic, as well as the snappy putt. For those who may not have closely followed this thread, here is what I believe is the nearly unanimous opinion of forum members who responded: 1. The suggestion I made that some players might profit from one-handed putting at distances less than 20 feet is not worth consideration. 2. The suggestion I made that some users might benefit from a certain type of wrists-only putting for distances greater than 50 feet was worth even less consideration. I've said all I wish to say on both topics, and I very much hope others have, too.

I can control distance almost as well as I can using a conventional stroke, but this downside is made up for, and more, by increased accuracy in direction. With a shorter swing in time, and in space, there is less chance for the club face to travel off-line. I don't use the snap swing exclusively to lag long distances. Often, I will use my three or four hybrid when I'm on the green and facing a long putt, or a medium-long uphill putt. A long putt from the taller grass next to the green I use a six-hybrid.

Meant to write, "Even IF my putt is not like...."

[URL=http://www.golf.com/instruction/brandt-snedekers-putting-secrets-0]http://www.golf.com/instruction/brandt-snedekers-putting-secrets-0[/URL][quote name="Mr. Desmond" url="/t/76599/putting-one-handed/18#post_1042235"]Actually, that's the point I was making with your posts ... Snapping? Just do not see a lot hinging-unhinging here. [/quote] The first video betrays not even a faint hint of the type of mostly wrist only putt I've been talking about, and that I believe Snedeker was describing in the website at [URL=http://www.golf.com/instruction/brandt-snedekers-putting-secrets-0]http://www.golf.com/instruction/brandt-snedekers-putting-secrets-0[/URL] I see zero wrist action in the first video, so I can see why you wonder why I think Snedeker uses as much wrist as I claim he does. The second video, however, shows pretty much what I am talking about. I see a putt in which much of the arc back and forth is caused by the wrists hinging. There is very little hinging in that putt because it was such a short putt. I use the wrists only putt for very long lags, which require much greater wrists hinging. Even my putt is NOT like Snedeker's "pop" (his term) putt (I believe it is), the long lag putts I have success with are ones in which I think only my wrists move. I recommend that curious forum readers try it. I think you'll be astonished at how STRAIGHT and far you can roll the ball.

I didn't mean to imply that the average distance from the cup from 60 feet is six feet; that would mean some putts would be 8, 10, 12 feet from the cup. On a level green, the ball from 60 feet will normally fall within a circle of radius six feet, centered at the cup. That means that sometimes the ball will be four, three, two feet, even 18 inches from the cup. By my standards, that is a wonderful result. Snedeker uses the putt, too, so one would expect it to work, wouldn't one? On tricky breaking greens, my green-reading skills are the main cause of poor lags, I think, not poor technique or a poorly fitted putter. I would prefer to believe, though, that whatever putting problems I may have are due to having a poorly-fitted putter. If I knew what a Edel fitter is, I might go see him. (I will google the term.)

OK. The best way I can describe what I think my snappy putts are like is refer you to the website provided in a previous post in which Snedeker describes his putt. I think I do what Snedeker thinks he does, except I think I don't move my shoulders or arms as much as he says he thinks he does. What you feel isn't real.

Then, you would say the same about Snedeker's pop putt? His putt is the same as mine, except he has little more arm movement.

Here is a link to a website describing Snedeker's "pop" putt. [URL=http://www.golf.com/instruction/brandt-snedekers-putting-secrets-0]http://www.golf.com/instruction/brandt-snedekers-putting-secrets-0[/URL] He has a small arm swing, which don't have, but the main features of his swing are the the same as mine: little or no shoulder and arm movement; the swing is predominantly in the wrists. Energy is delivered to the ball over a very short period of time centered at the instant of impact, instead of being delivered over a "follow through" period as in the traditional putting stroke. As I indicated in a previous post, I use this putt only in those situations where a very long backswing would be needed in the traditional putt. I find that snapping the ball toward a cup sixty feet away more surely keeps the ball on line than does a putt with a long backswing and follow through, which gives more time and space for pushes and pulls to occur. The chance of a push or pull occurring with the snappy putt is much less than it is with the conventional putt. And, distance control, amazingly, is nowhere as difficult for me as you might expect. By varying the amount of wrist backswing, with practice one quickly gains a good feel for distance. As for my other "unconventional" putting style--putting one-handed, left handed, for distances less than 20 feet, I mentioned before that PGA pro Mike Hulbert putted one-handed. If it was good enough for him, couldn't it be good enough for some of those in this forum, too? If not, why not?

Typos: 59 feet should be 60. Apilogies should be apologies. My iphone app didn't allow edits.

Less than about 20 feet, I putt one-handed. Lags longer than about 59 feet I use my Snedeker Snap (with apilogies to him), between 20 and 50 feet I use an orhodox putting method. As for how close I expect my 60-foot Sneddy to go, the answer is, abou tsix feet, Distance control should be a problem, one would reasonably think, but the longer the lag, the smaller is the percentage error compared to traditional putts. In my first post I said I hinged my wrists as far as rhey would go. That's wrong; I hinge no more than about 20 degrees.

The one arm putt works well for distances less than about 20 feet. It is, indeed, very problematical for very long uphill putts, or long putts on very slow greens, because of the extra-long backswing that is required, so I don't use this method in those situations. For very long putts I use a modified version of Snedeker's putt--what I call the "Snedeker Snap," a two-handed, almost all-wrists swing; no arms or shoulders. I hinge the wrists back as far as they will bend, then rapidly unhinge them, pulling with my left wrist, pushing with my right wrist, all the while the watch on my left wrist remains in place from start to finish. Distance is determined by the speed at which the wrists are snapped toward the target.

One-Handed Putting I'm a right-handed player who putts with my left hand. I tried a hundred different putting styles, but this one works better for me than any of them. Without my right hand on the club I'm able to stand taller, which affords a better view of the intended line. I also don't have to worry about twitches, staggers, jitters and jerks ("yips") of the right hand taking my club face off-line. I use a John Riley Tri-Liner: The ball is just to the left of my right foot, and the club face is just to the right; my right foot is pulled way back. The COMPLETELY relaxed left arm hangs virtually STRAIGHT DOWN, with absolutely NO leftward, rightward, backward, or forward push or pull on the shaft, and zero torque (twisting action) employed to keep the face square. If these conditions are not met, then forget it. Move your head one way or the other, or shift your stance slightly, if necessary, until the club in your completely relaxed hand and arm hangs straight down, achieving this without the use of any force except the supporting upward pull by your left hand, and the competing downward pull of gravity. The thumb must be on top of the shaft, else if the thumb is a little on the right side there might be a tendency to push the shaft on the way down. That must not happen: the motion down should be purely pendulum-like in nature. Naturally, the center line of the Tri-Liner points at the center of the ball, and the face is square to the intended line; the club is about 1/8 of an inch off the green. Take the club back however far is necessary in order to achieve the desired distance. The arm and shaft remain on the same line going back, and there is no breaking of the wrists. Now, here is the BEST part: don't worry if during the takeaway the face angle changes; your backswing won't be perfect; let the face angle change if it wants to; do NOT attempt to fix the angle going back, or coming down. On the way down, let gravity alone pull the club down to impact. If your arm happened to twist a little going back, it will automatically twist back into proper alignment in time for impact. Keep your arm and wrist TOTALLY relaxed, and trust that the club face will return to its exact position at setup. Do NOT attempt to manipulate the club's face angle on the way down. If your arm and wrists are totally relaxed on the backswing and downswing just as they were at setup, the face almost magically finds its way back to a perfectly square position at impact. If your face was square at setup with relaxed arm and wrist, is is guaranteed to return to the same place. Do NOT pull the club down to impact; if you leave that job up to gravity, you won't be disappointed. The motion down should be pendulum motion only. Just let it all happen. The key is trusting that gravity alone will get the job done, and trusting that it is not necessary to worry about minor club face angle changes during the backswing. If you make any effort at all to adjust the face angle, you will fail to return square to the ball. Likewise, if you attempt to intervene in the natural gravitational course of events on the way down, your club face will fail to return square to the ball. If the face was square at setup and the club was hanging vertically, freely, at the end of totally relaxed arm and hand, it will return to square through gravity alone, as long as you do not manipulate the face angle on the way back, or the way down. You will be AMAZED at how well this works. Some PGA pros have done well putting with one hand; Mike Hulbert is one example, but he was a right-hand player putting with his right hand. I am a right handed player putting with my left hand.