dreichert

Nicklaus was Left eye dominant.

Playing with the lead arm as the dominant arm or being cross dominant is a major advantage and on reviewing this subject I have found that many tour pros present and past played this way. Am reading book on Moe Norman arguably the best ball striker ever and he was a lefty playing right handed. Nicklaus was cross dominant as he was left eye dominant. I think that the reason for this is that the forward arm must define the radius or arc of the swing. In other words it is the control arm. Control is best done with the dominant arm.

Ludicrous? Since you have no intelligent responses to the statements I made in the previous post you must cover up this fact by calling them ludicrous. If you begin to straighten the right arm early in the downswing you lose the lag which should be created in the downswing and lose a major power source. I can't look up anything about the tests because I don't believe they ever happened. Why waste my time. This is another statement you pulled out of the air (to be kind I won't mention the other place they might have been pulled from) You made the statement about the "tests" so you document it, You can't because they were never performed. The statement about shooting 60 or below state was a response to an earlier post by soon-tour pro and not my original post. You really should read the posts more carefully. Comments you made about Sergio and Adam Scott are very lame attempts to distract from the issue of left handers being taught to write right handed. I don't dispute that you saw them signing autographs. I'm saying that left handers are often taught to write handed so seeing someone sign an autograph right handed has no rmeaning as to whether they are left handed or not. This is simple logic that you are failing to grasp. I did provide a reference to prove my point that left hander have been and are being taught to write right handed ("The Converted Left Hander" Sattler 2004). Either you missed this when you read my post or you have chosen to ignore it as it blows your contention that signing autographs right handed proves right handedness completely out of the water. Greg Norman and Sergio Garcia are documented to be left handers and Adam Scott to be ambidextrous. I'm still not convinced that Ben Hogan was not a left hander, the data is conflicting. Jack Nicklaus was left eye dominant and therefore at least to some degree ambidextrous. I read once that Palmer was left handed but generally have always considered him a right hander. I have never researched Tiger Woods or Tom Watson in regard to hand dominance but it would not be surprising if they also are ambidextrous. The concept that you cannot apply 10 percent left handedness in the total population to a specific group such as tour pros is apparently beyond your ability to comprehend. Basically you cannot draw any conclusions about the per cent of left handed tour pros based on the percent of left handers in the total population. And we do not know what per cent of tour pros have the advantage of being ambidextrous in a left sided controlled golf swing. I've already provided a list of left handed tour pros playing right handed and for all we know all touring pros playing right handed are left handed or ambidextrous. You certainly have no documented that any tour pro playing right handed is not ambidextrous or a left hander. I doubt you even know what a reference is as you have provided none and I have when it was appropriate and you couldn't recognize it. Arguing with you is akin to arguing with a stone. You cannot even recognize when you have lost an argument. Much of what you say is illogical and you make unfounded claims and tell me I should document them. Your position is in reality completely untenable and how you can be comfortable with it is beyond my comprehension. Belatedly I realize it is a complete waste of time to debate an issue with you and I will not do so in the future.

I didn't say the right arm straightens at the top. It starts to straighten just before impact and continues to straighten after impact until fully extended in the good player. Its not a feel but the true mechanics of the swing. What tests are you referring to? I'm not aware of any such tests. Can you cite a reference. When one uses the right arm at the start of the downswing it is likely to take over and the left arm can't maintain the correct arc. As a result you will come over the top. I stand by my statement that players who can shoot 60 or below are very likely to be ambidextrous or left handed. Neither you nor I can prove our assertions at this point. On googling whether Hogan was right or left handed, all but two of the many contributors stated that Hogan was left handed without citing their sources. One of the two people opposing this assertion was Hogan himself in an interview in 1987 in Golf magazine in which he said he said that he was right handed. Why so many sources cite him being left handed is puzzling. It's possible that Hogan's statement of being right handed was done for some reason other than it being true. Obviously he is the best source so I must concede to you on this point. As I mentioned the players in the pictures could have been ambidextrous being predominately lefties and right handed only in writing. In fact it was common in the past and continues to some extent even in the present that when left handers were first taught to write they were forced to write right handed. This was accomplished by tying the left hand behind their backs or to their chair or slapping the left hand when it was used to write. This could certainly explain lefties signing right handed as demonstrated in the photos. "The Converted Left Hander" Sattler 2004). Add to list Christie Kerr (autograph using Left hand), Scott Piercy (used left hand to mark ball), and Nick Price (google search). You have no evidence that all of the rest of the tour pros are right handers. All of them could just as well be left handers. At least I have provided several examples of left handers playing righty. You have provided no examples to support your claim. You cannot prove that the majority of the top fifty tour pros are righties playing right handed. You'll have to document that statement if you can. The fact that both arms are on the grip doesn't say anything about which arm should dominate in any part of the swing. If the right hand control is equal to the left in the early part of the swing it is likely to take over and take the club off the proper arc. This requires a major re-rout somewhere later in the swing. Left hand control of the back and early downswing is a reality not a feel.

I said they were natural left handers or ambidextrous which would explain all of your autograph signers. I have looked it up and you're still wrong. I don't pull facts out of the air like you do. Apparently you haven't bothered to do a google search on the "facts" in my first post because that is the source of these "facts" Are you saying that modern tour pros are different from those from the past. Now that REALLY makes sense. You won't get to that position very often unless you have a better understanding of the correct swing mechanics learn to implement them.

Any right handed golfer who can shoot sixty at his local club had a good swing the first time he picked up a club most likely because he is left handed or ambidextrous. He probably knows no more about swing mechanics than the average handicap golfer. Why should he? His swing was great when he started and learning and trying incorporate mechanics into the swing would most likely screw up his swing. He probably doesn't know the correct mechanics of the swing and thus couldn't teach them. Hogan by the way was a natural left hander. The theories outlined in his book "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" are questioned by some modern day "swing gurus". Jim McClean among others dispute his idea that the first move in the downswing was turn of the left hip to the left. Videos of his swing are said to show that his hips first move laterally rather than turn. The feature article in the February 2012 issue of Golf magazine by top100 teacher Mike Adams questions Hogan's swing plane theory. Also in that issue Paul Marchand on page 54 stresses the necessity of left arm and hand control of the swing to correct a slice. A slice he feels is is due to right arm control of the swing. A few these guys do understand correct swing mechanics

The right arm is passive in the swing until near impact and if the swing is being controlled by the left arm, the right arm can't chicken wing or get behind you. That can only happen if the right arm takes control. I had suspected that left arm control was an essential in the golf swing for many years but only became convinced of it when I quit taking golf lessons and tried to achieve left arm control on my own. When I do it properly I hit only good shots and all of bad shots occur when the right arm takes over. This is true for any player, not that you can't hit some good shots with right arm control but you can't hit good shots consistently that way. Again, the right arm must remain passive. I find that if you can keep the left arm in control to the top of the back swing, usually the rest of the swing will occur automatically and it is hard to screw it up from there. The downswing occurs too fast to make any adjustments though any golf instruction I have ever had and the vast majority of instruction in golf publications try to make alterations in the downswing and ignore the backswing. The body movements occur automatically if the left arm controls the club in the swing to near the point of impact. Trying to "sync" movement of each and every one of the body parts individually is almost impossible if you really think about it. For consistency the swing has to be simple and easily repeatable which is what left arm control achieves. I must have been very unlucky as all of the approximately ten golf instructors I have had over the years tried to teach downswing methods impossible to perform. I apparently didn't pick one of the competent nine hundred ninety if only one in a hundred don't teach "rubbish" as you say. Any of the "revelations" about the golf swing I have had on the range are proven false by no later then by the 6th hole of the ensuing round. My range thoughts that ended up in the garbage bin number in the thousands. I am certain I am right on left arm control mechanics. Until you can explain why many if not most of the touring pros are left handed playing righty (or are ambidextrous), demonstrating the importance of left arm control, I will continue to convinced that what I say about swing mechanics is true. I listed several instances in my post of tour pros left handed playing righty or vise versa. You can also find this on an internet search. If you look for it in good players as I have you will be surprised at the frequency of this phenomenon. Watch the right handed tour pro when he marks his ball or scorecard or signs autographs you will see what I mean. If you finish playing with any good player then have lunch together many will eat with their left hand. Most golfers will improve their scores if they play and practice frequently with or without instruction. The level of competence achieved will depend principally on the amount of play/practice and the severity of the underlying mechanical faults in the swing. With the possible exception of superior athletic ability, the only way for a right hand dominant golfer can become a low handicap or scratch golfer is to follow the example of Phil Mickelson and Bob Charles and swing left handed from the beginning. This is what golf instructors should be teaching. Once a right hander has established a right hand dominant swing this is very difficult to do. To learn more about the correct mechanics of the golf swing, I suggest you read the two books authored by Carl Lohren: "One move to Better Golf" and " Getting Set For Golf",

If you believe I am wrong why don't you provide some information to refute it instead of just throwing insults at me. The person who has nothing to offer but insults is trying to cover up the fact that he knows nothing about the subject under discussion. It doesn't take any smarts to insult another and only reflects badly on the person who does the insulting. I'll listen to others when they have something intelligent to say and not just meaningless bullshit. The good impact position is great but it is how to consistently get to that position that is important.

Why don't you provide some information to refute to what I've been saying instead of just trying to insult me, but hurling insults seems to be the goal of this forum. Your second statement is patently false. You provide no factual information to support the statement. If you read my original post you would find that I listed several tour pros who play right handed but are natural lefties or are ambidextrous. It appears that you think any statement you make is correct by definition. It doesn't generally work that way though I realize that many people will believe any thing they see in print. To paraphrase an old German saying "not even the god can conquer stupidity".

Yes. Low handicap players come in two forms. Type one swings correctly the first time he/she picks up a club and breaks 70 within one to two years. This type of player will almost certainly be left handed (swinging righty) or ambidextrous. They get the swing right naturally but have no clue as to the correct mechanics and won't be good instructors. Type two will start with a faulty swing (usually a right hander swinging right) but will play and practice enough to get down to a single digit handicap but will also be inconsistent. Since the handicap based on the ten best scores out of twenty this person can keep his handicap low even if half of his rounds are high. I was type two for fifty-five of my sixty years of play and practice and got down to as low as zero though mostly was mid single digit. The last 30 years I had continuous lessons by pros concentrating on downswing techniques only with little to show for it. With my last instructor I slumped to a mid teen handicap. I always knew that my problem was a faulty backswing but no instructor would agree. Two to three years ago I quit the lessons and pursued my own theory playing five days a week and practicing two to three hours also on those days. Knowing the true left side control mechanics is one thing but converting to them from a right arm dominated swing is even more difficult. The only bad shots I hitoccur when my right arm takes over.

The left arm establishes the arc only if it has control of the club in the backswing and the downswing to the point of impact The only way you can hit a bad shot is if the right arm takes over too soon which will move the club off the required arc. At this your point the arms and body will disconnect and the club will be taken behind you. It will require perfect timing to square the face at impact otherwise the shot will be a wild push or a duck hook. The shot will also be weak as the connection between the arms and body is lost and you will be swinging with your arms only.

That might have worked for Bobby but for the rest of us it works better if you are brain dead.

Now you tell me. Yes, I am Patrick. How did you figure it out? Patrick

Are you using your dominant as your forward arm? If not try going to the other side of your laptop.

After careful consideration, I have come to the conclusion that what you say is indeed factual. You must be a very knowledgable and educated person to have uncovered this. I am eternally grateful to you for informing me of this fact.

It's not a belief, it's an absolute fact. The past 30 years of my 60 years playing golf I've taken almost continuous lessons from various instructors I processed about all of the information needed to conclude what they're teaching, mostly down swing adjustments, is useless. How else can you explain the fact that the majority of tour pros and other very good players play with their dominant arm the forward arm, the arm that controls the backswing and establishes the proper swing arc.

Don't hold your breath. Even if the dominant arm is lost the amputee will soon gain control of the existing non-dominant arm but must address the ball the remaining arm as the forward arm.

Who is Patrick? I'd like to get to know him. He's got to be really intelligent if my ideas resemble his.

The right arm extends through the hitting area to add club head speed and power which is the only role of the right arm. It doesn't fully straighten until after impact.

That's the point. Since only 10 per cent of the population is left handed why are many if not most of the very good golfers who play right handed are natural lefties. It's because there is a tremendous advantage in being able to control the left arm in the golf swing and if the right hand takes over you are doomed. Of course many very good golfers are ambidextrous with good control on both sides. Yes, I believe right handed people would have better swings and lower scores if they played left handed. As Alex Morrison a renowned golf instructor in the past "golf is a right handed game for left handers" Morrison by the way was a tennis pro at a country club who didn't play golf but was forced to teach golf when the golf instructor quit. You can become a proficient golfer with a swing controlled by the right side if you practice and play enough. Consistency will be the problem since it is very difficult to stay on the correct arc this way and an adjustment on the down swing will be required and timing becomes an issue.

The best instructors are those who learned the mechanics of the swing from the ground and are not necessarily good players though if they understand the correct mechanics of the golf swingand persist in trying to master then get enough reps to ingrain it they can become good players. Golf pros can play the game well naturally from the time they picked up a club but most have to clue about correct golf swing mechanics and if you don't know that how can you teach the swing.

I'm not sure what you are seeing. Can you give further clarification? You' right about the incorrect spelling of Mickelson. I never been great at remembering names either.

Correct use of the backswing with the left arm will keep the head aligned properly and load the backswing. The downswing is done naturally without conscious thought or control if the left arm controlled back swing is executed properly Trying to initiate the downswing with the core muscles would require very precise timing and be difficult to do properly with any consistency

Agree wrist hinging is necessary but I think it tends to occur naturally with a left arm controlled backswing. If you try to control the backswing with the right arm then you must consciously hinge the wrists and very early in the backswing. However a right arm controlled backswing is much more complicated and difficult to perform correctly and keep the club path on the proper arc. Wrist cock and elbow bend must be precise. Usually one will swing the right arm too wide, out and around which feels more powerful but disconnects from the body and proper arc. Then you must make a major adjustment in the downswing which if not done correctly requires one to square the club face with the hands often resulting in an open faced push slice or a closed face duck hook. Also I failed to mention that there must be maximal clockwise rotation of the left forearm in the backswing held until it is uncoiled naturally through the hitting area providing much more club head speed, power, and distance. Physique is not important in controlling the backswing with the left arm. Athletic ability is very important for club head speed, power, and distance but the athletic individual still must have the proper technique of control of the swing arc with the left arm. Have you seen Charles Barkley's swing? Trying to make a three quarter backswing or "reach for the stars" only distracts you from executing the proper left arm controlled backswing arc and the "basic" swing for non athletes is no different. A left arm controlled backswing keeps you balanced during the swing and won't allow you to over swing. The right arm only follows the left until it extends powerfully through the hitting area. My comments concerning teaching pros is based on twenty-five of more or less continuous lessons from various teaching pros. All have tried to teach only down swing techniques. None of these lessons have improved my handicap and with the last instructor my handicap went from mid single digit to the mid teens. All of the instructors I've had have teach one unique down swing move which they say will make you a scratch golfer. Eventually I realize that I can't make this move and switch instructors to no avail. I have since realized that all my lessons only distracted me from learning the proper golf swing. The only instructor I know who understands the proper mechanics of the golf swing is Carl Lohren who published his ideas in his book "One Move to Better Golf" and has written an updated version of this book.. I don't have any specific numerical data for statements about instructors Teaching any other technique than left arm control is doomed to failure Unfortunately once one has learned a right sided swing it is almost impossible to change to the proper left arm controlled swing. A bandaid is the only thing a student can hope for. Ambidexterity is congenital but control of the non-dominate arm can be learned quite well. Those without upper extremities can learn dexterity with their feet. It is likely that only compulsive range rats can get the reps to learn to control the non-dominant arm properly in golf golf swing. Big muscles can't guide the golf swing to the proper arc. The left arm initiates the swing and the big muscles are secondary in the back and down swing. "Twitchy" or not the left arm must control the swing arc which is extremely difficult if it is not the dominant arm.

There is only one essential to regularly perform a mechanically correct golf swing which will result in consistently solid and on target golf shots. The forward arm (left arm for right handers) must control the arc or radius of the golf swing through the back swing and into the hitting area which is the only way to consistently get the clubface square to the ball at impact. The rear arm's only function is to release or propel the club through the hitting area. If the rear arm takes over at any time before this you will have to make an adjustment to get the club face square at impact. This will require good timing and produce inconsistent results. This is at least 90% percent of a correct golf swing with grip, stance, and ball position making up the other 10%. This 10% by the way, is the only thing teaching instructors (excluding Carl Lohren) can teach. They try to teach aspects of the downswing which are doomed to failure as the downswing is happening too fast. If the forward arm controls the arc or radius of the club as above the correct downswing occurs automatically with no thinking or effort by the player. Most golf instructors come into the profession because they are good players but not good enough to make a living as a player. They had good golf swings the first time they picked up a golf club and never had to learn the mechanics of the golf swing nor can they recognize the mechanical faults of players they try to teach. They can help good players with mechanically sound swings because these players already have forward arm control naturally. They cannot help players with mechanically incorrect back arm controlled swings except to put on a bandaid here and there or give them a psychological lift. Only those instructors who learned the swing from the ground up and really understand the mechanics have the potential to help the high handicapper. Unfortunately, once players have established a swing controlled by the back arm it is highly unlikely they will be able to change to forward arm control (I know this from personal experience). This forward arm control of the swing can rarely be accomplished unless the forward arm is your dominant arm or you are ambidextrous. Many if not most tour pros and good players exhibit tis phenomenon. Thus it is simple for them to control the arc of the swing with their dominant arm which is key. Examples include Ben Hogan, Johnny Miller, Greg Norman, Curtis Strange, Adam Scott, and Sergio Garcia. Bob Charles and Phil Michelson are right handed and Mike Weir and Steve Flesch are ambidextrous as are most all of the lefties on tour except Bubba Watson. Jack Nicklaus was left eye dominant which suggests some element of ambidexterity. If you look for it as I have you will notice many good players exhibit this feature. If you see a child with a great golf swing you can bet they their forward arm is dominant or they are ambidextrous. It is very difficult to explain the importance of forward arm control any other way. The usual reason given is that the unavailability of left handed clubs but this doesn't explain Michelson or Charles. My own experience also attests to the importance the dominant arm being the forward arm. It took me nearly 60 years of regular play, 30 years of continuous lessons with different pros, and range time which I suspect exceeded any other individual to learn this. Doc