Vijay4LIFE

In the thread, we post our favorite golf jokes. Here are mine :) :) :) Q: What does Payne Stewart have in common with a computer? A: Both freeze before they crash. Q: When does Payne Stewart's jet depressurize? A: When he gets a hole in one. Q: What does Big Bird have in common with Payne Stewart? A: Both are goofy looking and cannot fly.

I was hoping that no one would bring up Bobby Jones when typing up the OP because I really didn't want to have this discussion, but I guess we'll have to. Bobby Jones is a joke. There, I said it, and yeah, I mean it. The man. Was. A. Lawyer. Seriously. He was a LAWYER. He NEVER played golf full time, and he was playing against others who did not play golf full time. He had absolutely no competition. Hist competition were a bunch of rich white men who had the money to be playing a significant amount of golf, read: other professionals. The same could be said about Hogan, to a lesser degree. Think about it. Today there are universities and high schools all across the world devoted to churning out amazing golfers. not a bunch of part time doctors and lawyers who are pretty good at a little golf and want to dink it around in some tournament once in awhile. Oh yeah, and before everyone is like "OH HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT ABOUT BOBBY JONES HE BUILD AUGUSTA!" TPC Sawgrass > Augusta

Can we PLEEEEEEAAAASE try to keep the on track and talk about how Ben Hogan would be irrelevant and anyone who doesn't think Tiger is the greatest of all time is a racist?

Quote: Why would I try and refute your opinion? Yeah. My post was opinion like "Darwin's Theory of Evolution" is opinion, LOL.

Nice try brah. I'm running Ubuntu on an old dell lattitude.

LOL hilarious. You call for banning me and that my post is offensive, yet you refute none of my points. Why? Because you can't refute them, unless of course you just hate Tiger for, I don't know what reason, his skin color? Isn't MD the first state south of the mason dixon btw?

Anyone who says that Tiger isn't the greatest all time is being deluded by their hatred for people with dark skin or their fear that their beloved country clubs will be filled with those "undesirables" with deeper pigmentation. Tiger has accomplished more meaningful triumphs than any other golfer, and he did it against the best competition. Unlike Hogan, Nicklaus, Sneed, Palmer, Hagen, etc., who grew up playing against shallow fields. Sorry that I'm not impressed with players who were going up against fields comprised of mostly non professional golfers. Sorry that it's probably not an incredible feat when your battling head to head with a full time doctor or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_%22Jug%22_McSpaden . Oh, what's that you didn't know Jug McSpaden was like one of the goats? LOL golf history FTW. Boo Hoo I'm sorry your great white champions can't hold a candle to a man with dark skin. Don't worry, at least Eminem is probably the greatest rapper of all time, so you've got that going for you!

Quote: LOL yup. I could say the following - that Tiger would be irrelevant if he played in Hogan's era. Why? Caucasian clause. I've reported your post. I don't find that particularly humorous. Maybe you find racism to give you the LOLs but I find it just absolutely repugnant that an otherwise very serious and constructive discussion confirming Hogan's irrelevance in the modern game of golf would be reduced to racism. Unbelievable.

Listen, seriously, if you guys want to believe in silliness, fine. That's your prerogative. You are absolutely entitled to believe that ben hogan would be the greatest player on the pga tour today, you can believe that he would be in the top 5, you can believe in supernatural events, ghosts, god, tooth fairies, vote for bush, etc. Everyone is entitled to do ridiculous things. But I'm not going to just sit here and they "oh, they're logical." It goes without saying that pretty much anyone who doesn't acknowledge that Tiger Woods is the greatest of all time is just a racist, and that's what most of the Hogan > Tiger people are doing.

It's not MY fault that all the old time heroes of Golf couldn't compete today. That's evolution. That's life. Sam Sneed, Byron Nelson, Hogan, Sarazon, all stood out when most of the field were professionals like lawyers, doctors, entrepreneurs, etc since only well to do professionals could even afford to play part time on the tours. The other guys were all golf bums. modern golfer > old timers.

OMG you cannot be serious. YOU ARE COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTANDING THE WHOLE POINT OF SCIENCE. Just because science is reversed doesn't mean it was WRONG. It is the systematic process of explaining our CURRENT understandings. Maybe this will make the point better than I can.

I'm sorry that I don't deal in platitudes, cliches, and banalities when it comes to serious discussions. Which is exactly what Tiger is speaking in. Let's discuss facts, and numbers. Let's not invoke that which cannot be measured to have a discussion. Let me guess, you voted for George Bush?

Quote: This argument is age old regardless of the sport but I respectfully disagree. You can't draw comparisons of what Hogan did back then to what modern players do today. The equipment he played with was infinitely inferior to what is available today. I have some old clubs and balls from Hogan's era and there is light years worth of difference between them and modern clubs. To do what he did with that equipment took more talent than it does today, when you can buy clubs with "forgiveness" in them, balls designed to fly straighter regardless of how bad you hit them, etc.... Secondly, Tiger listed Hogan as one of just a couple of players who truly "owned" their swing. Given that Tiger plays with the players you listed (including himself) and not one modern player is on his short list is an indication of just how good Hogan was. The bottom line is, you can't draw comparisons between athletes from vastly different eras to each other. The advances in the sport preclude it. You're missing the entire point of everything. Try reading my posts completely and carefully before replying, as I have read yours. I am arguing that Ben Hogan was NOT a complete player, especially when compared to today's elite. I think his ball striking would for sure be on part with the top players. But these days, you need more than just ball striking to carry you. And no one's ball striking has ever been good enough to compensate for inadequaciesin other areas of the game. Ben Hogan had those inadequacies. There is a cap on how good of a ball striker you can be. Moe Norman is not a significantly better ball striker than Sergio or Joe Durant. If you want to believe in fairy tales about the golfers of the olden days, go right ahead. You're welcome to believe in things like God, tooth fairies, and that Ben Hogan could knock it stiff from 175 every time. My guess is that his per round averages as far as GIR, Driving Distance, Accuracy etc would be right on with the elite ball strikers. His short game...mmmm.....not so much. Edit: And wtf does Tiger Woods saying Hogan and Moe Norman "owned" his swing even mean? LOL. it's an insignifiacnt statement, a quintessential non sequitor masquerading as a meaningful statement. Symbolic logic is probably not your forte huh?

I don't think you're reading my post very carefully. I'm saying as far as ball striking is concerned, he would still probably be very good. Unfortunately, everyone is very good at ball striking today, or maybe you don't watch much golf or look up tour stats? The point is that Hogan's exceptional ball striking in his day is what was responsible of his success, despite his shortcomings in other areas of the game. His ball striking would not allow him to be dominant any longer.His ball striking would enable him to be pretty good, but no where near on the level as say someone like Phil M, Tiger, Rory Mc, et al. Those guys are much more "complete players." Face it. To play at an elite level on the PGA Tour today, you need to be a "complete player," and Hogan simply wasn't.

Wow, way to bring the LOLs buddy.I'll address your points one by one. Quote: Pointless argument he was great in his day and that's all that matters you can't compare today players with players from the past. The whole point of golf is comparing golfers from the past to the present. That's why the USGA takes huge measures in "preservation of the game." We love golf because unlike other sports it is predicated on measurement. In tennis, I will never know if I can return a Nadal Serve. In baseball, I'll never know if I can hit a Greg Maddox homerun. In golf, I know when I pitch in from 40 yards that Tiger couldn't have done it better. We compare players of past and present all the time, continue to do it, and will continue to do it. Quote: Plus you don't know how good Hogan would be using todays technology, coaches, etc Wow, what a joke. First of all, we have a really good idea of how technology affects the game as far as yardage gained. And are you trying to say that Hogan would have a better swing than he did? Please. Hogan was for sure as good as he could have ever been with his full swing, and that's the entire crux of my post. His full swing was great, but the other elements of his game, apart from mental, were at best mediocre and were unlikely to be improved by coaching. Quote: I could give you the argument that if Hogan in his prime played with todays technology, coaches, etc he would be the best player in the world. Now would I be right there's no way to tell so it's not worth debating over. So why don't you? Oh, that's why, you can't. Just another Hogan nuthugger dangling from the idea that he was some type of transcendent golfing machine. Newsflash, that doesn't exist. What does Hogan's mythical legendary status have in common with God, the Easter Bunny, and Santa? All things that don't exist.

Who else agrees with me that Ben Hogan would be irrelevant on today's PGA Tour? He might be able to squeak into the top 30 or 25 in the world, and he'd probably be a major winner, but dominant? No way. The only advantage that Ben Hogan would have would be his mental game. Hogan probably had the best mental game of any golfer ever, that can't be denied. His course management and attitude was second to none. But physically he could not hang with today's top 30. So I am not a hater, I am giving him his props. Here are the FACTS: Ben Hogan's "legacy" was developed during a time when golf instruction was in the dark ages. In my opinion we are still evolving and developing technique every day, Hogan just happened to be significantly ahead of his peers at the time. No one knew jack about the golf swing back then, Hogan didn't have any "secrets," it's just that everyone else was such an idiot. Who were the best golf instructors back then? Claude Harmon? LOL. Jackie Burke? LOL. Reading the advice in "It's Only a Game," made me cringe. Welcome to the 21st century. LOL The only reason Hogan's ball striking has achieved mythical status is that no one could hit the ball back then. There are literally dozens of golfers who would be better ball strikers today than Ben Hogan. Go to the range at any NCAA event and you are bound to see a bunch of college kids that can hit it better than Hogan. more far, more accurate, period. Detailed stats were NOT kept in Hogan's day. We have no reliable metric to determine how good Hogan's ball striking was. The truth of the matter is that we do now, and guess what? It turns out that in the group of elite ball strikers, the best DO NOT have a significant edge on each other. Guys like Sergio, Joe Durant, Prime Vijay, Prime Tiger, Nick Price, Nick Faldo, Prime Boo, all of the best modern ball strikers, now that we have stats on them, are not significantly better than one another. This means that ball striking, once you are at an elite level, is mostly IRRELEVANT. Ben Hogan's putting was pitiful. Yeah yeah yeah, "Oh before his accident he was so good at putting before he went blind in the left eye!" LOL, excuses, whatever. The truth of the matter is that Hogan's putting will forever go down as his achilles heel. The truth of the matter is that to play golf at the highest level of the PGA tour, you have to have elite level putting and short game. While Hogan's short game was pretty good, it was never his strong point. So based on his putting and short game I don't think he would be able to crack the top 5 in world rankings. And I'm going to have to finally mention the elephant in the room. Power. Despite everyone thinking Ben Hogan hammered it, the fact of the matter is that he didn't okay? Even Hank Haney stated in his Golf Digest "My Shot" interview that Hank Haney, Lee Trevino, and Moe Norman despite their great ball striking ability lacked today's raw power. Hogan just couldn't hang with the big dawgs on tour today, and that's a fact. In conclusion, I think that the new breed like Rory Mc, Bubba Watson, Dustin Johnson, etc are way ahead of Hogan. If Hogan competed today he would be about on the same level as a guy like David Toms or Zach Johnson. Those guys certainly aren't bad, but they're mostly irrelevant, that that's where Hogan would be.