Joe Hill

" Please, just enjoy golf as a dude hoping to break 90, or maybe 80, or whatever. Find an instructor, work on your swing, and enjoy being outside in good company." Translated: Sit down and shut up. Me dishonest? Sorry. When you ignore the part of my swing where I showed the various angles I was doing, then post a critique of the top where I had already indicated it had errors, and base my concept on that, I consider it dishonest and a false narrative. When you purposefully omit context of my quotes, "when I execute according to plan", I consider that dishonest, and a false narrative. This suggests to me you have interest in nothing but discrediting me. I do not share your apathy. I do question your objectivity. If I knew nothing of anatomy, how do I come up with terms such as humerus leverage; leading arm leverage; trailing knee keyed for the return (it's the aimer, like a gun scope); directional muscle training (not yet used in this forum)? These are all concepts which use the skeletal structure to advantage in order to not have to worry about sequencing and timing, or what the lower body is doing. I also believe in directional training of the muscles. Muscles can be built, and they can also be built to favor certain directions imo. I'm aware of the triangle alteration due to right arm flex. How much, etc, is still up for experimentation for me. When I turn my head and look down at my arms at the top however, I see the same forearm triangle as at address. When I look at my videos, I indeed see the triangle maintaining it's relative form throughout the swing. My elbows remain down (is Ballard wrong about that? I think he' s dead right), and the mass of both arms are in line with the direction of travel at least from half way down through impact. That in itself is a fundamental concept of physics. Do you hammer with the flat part of the hammer? You can, but you will work much harder to do so. Keeping the mass of the hammer in line with the strike is the way the hammer is designed for a reason. I see the same principle at work by keeping the mass of the arms in line with the hit.

I thought I made it clear the 150 and 144 swings were very much the exception. 130+ to me is phenomenal in itself, being a life time 120 pw player, and considering the length of back swing. No I do not totally agree with the lines drawn. The dark area in front of the ball location at impact is not the divot; it is the shadow of the club head. Watch the video after the divot dirt settles and you will see. How can there be a shadow from the club head from the ball forward if the club head is way out in front as indicated? (the sun was setting directly to the left). I do however, in the same frame, see the paler color of my left leg, indicating the shaft moving in front of it, so I'm not sure. The next few frames of follow through show the club well extended, still in front of my arms and torso, with no sign of a flip. And yes, I'd just as soon leave it be until I get a good swing recorded properly.

I think those a very fair requests Abu3baid. I've already spent one c-note, half a day and half a tank of gas attempting to fulfill that request. I failed. It is senseless to post bad swings, serving no purpose. I will try again and again until I get what I consider a good swing recorded. I've tried to make clear that I am a lousy model for the swing. I wish I had a better model, but I'm all I have. I'm 65, not in good shape, and am just coming off a 6 year sedentary period, only recently taking up this endeavor again. The results when I do execute as planned, confirm to me the concept is valid, and I fully understand members here wanting some documented evidence. Patience with this old fart is all I can suggest. What I will not do is defend myself against inane accusations of knowing nothing about geometry, anatomy, or physics, or respond to admonitions to "sit down and shut up". When I get a good swing recorded, I'll post it as requested.

And I think you are very rude. This is about developing a swing concept, not about Joe teaching golf. I know the concept works due to results. If I'm flipping and getting 130 yard PW, what will it be when I get that worked out? I'll know more when I get better swings on the 3-D camera. If it bugs you so much what I'm trying to do, then please, get off the crazy train.

Session With James Leitz Report All of my shots during the session were this, so posting anything further from the session is pointless. It gave me the incentive I needed to keep the knees level, get better stacked on the right side at the top, and keep the left humerus better leveraged against the rib cage ( I know the club face is closed to it's arc here; working on it): It resulted in much better release: It's a little blurry, but this is right at impact even though you can't see the ball; no divot yet. Taken from this video: This was a dead on target 130 yd + PW. As soon as Leitz gets his 3-D video installed, I will return for another try.

On the plus side, I really felt comfortable with Leitz. I will likely go back, and consider him my "coach". Most importantly, I do not at all feel threatened that he thinks I'm doing things all wrong and that he will try to re-make my swing. He expressed more than once that he really liked my swing. Whether that is just a confidence booster or he meant it remains to be seen. I believe him to be sincere and honest. He is in the process of installing 3-d imaging, which will reveal much more about path, angles, etc., and I'm looking forward to a return trip after making some adjustments. On the negative side, my distances have literally sucked the last several days, and they did yesterday as well. Video revealed club head ahead of the hands at impact as the cause. As a result, I obviously did not achieve one of my objectives. I will have to experiment and try to figure why I'm suddenly releasing early. All in all, I thought it was a very productive session. He is doing voice over and will e-mail the finished product to me. I will share all or part at that time and let you guys tear me up.

That's my intent. I don't know what equipment he has, but it is supposedly top of the line. I will publish the swing with the numbers he provides. I will not publish the entire session because this is not about Joe's lack of proficiency or polish, but about a swing concept. I see no need of further discussion until, so will say adieu for now.

Everyone keeps telling me I'm confusing thought and feel, and I'm aware how easy it is for that to occur, but I see that I'm close to doing what I think. The hand plane is, with a neutral grip, the palms facing one another form a plane which closely corresponds with the spine angle, and it stays in that position throughout, in this swing concept, but not something I'm saying is "proper". The elbow line defines the base of the triangle. As long as the elbow line remains close to the shoulder plane line, the triangle is swinging on it's plane, keeping the mass of the arms in line with their direction of travel. In my sample swing, I allowed club momentum to pull my arms up, which put the triangle off plane. I try to resist that upward pull on the arms; that's my transition. It doesn't seem to hurt much for a little upward movement though, for my arms got right back on plane quickly. All this may seem complicated, but it makes for a lot fewer moving parts, something this creaky old boned swinger likes.

Can We make a deal? And don't give up. I'm getting a lot out of these conversations. I don't mind being on probation. I'll limit my comments on this board to this thread only. That is my purpose here anyway. I want to put this swing concept up to the scrutiny of open minded professionals and swing enthusiasts. I should not be getting the distances I'm getting in my condition and my age, not to mention my lack of polish and proficiency. I promise you, when I manage to execute according to plan, all I do is rotate the torso. I never have to think about sequencing, timing, hinge, release, spine tilt, hip bump; nothing but rotate the torso, feel everything else, and utterly crush it. It's ecstatic to me. You want proof. I'm providing proof. I'm booked with James Leitz for June 5. I want to hear from this membership that Leitz is acceptable. I do not want to hear I hired some hack after the fact. I knew you'd be ok with Gring, but I've never heard of Leitz. If you are ok with him, he's it. Back to the deal, In return for staying on this thread only, may I have permission to respond in my desired fashion, which is one at a time, on this thread only? This is what I mean by keeping the triangle relationship. I have never even thought or cared where the club hinged. I didn't even know until I recently filmed for the first time. Because my arms and hands are reasonably stable, there is only one place it can hinge. I never knew it was over the radius.

Update on the measurement. I booked Ron Gring to tape and speed measure my swing. He cancelled because he doesn't have a launch monitor. He's in the middle of moving, so just mis-communication, I guess. I'm considering James Leitz in Slidell, La. I don't want to travel that far, but will. I hear Leitz is top notch? Does anyone have a recommend in my area (Mobile/Fairhope, Al)?

What other deadly accurate and potent swing can be explained in full (from the waist up in this case) in under a 1/2 hour? I gave every last detail of what I do.

This video explains the "triangle", "hand plane", and what I am trying to achieve with this swing. It should answer many of the questions, but I will go back and answer all soon. Thanks everyone for your patience:

Due to the incline of the plane, which creates what I've labelled the plane width, the plane is seen as an ellipse, not a straight line. Based on that measure, the club shaft at the top of my swing is dead on plane. If the club shaft were pointing at the ball, it would be off plane. What am I missing?

Thanks EJ, but I am absolutely totally lost on this. I'd love to respond to the many questions but I'm frightened to even try. Am I supposed to take all of the questions from all of the posters and put in one post? It seems like that will be a 5 page post alone. Doesn't make sense. Just me I guess. And when I quote another multi post, I can erase text , but I can't erase the box. I'm just scared to even try at this point. I don't know what to do....

Sorry gents, I won't reply until I learn to multi post. I'm not ignoring your questions, etc. I'm having difficulty with several technicalities here. Spell check, copy/paste, are a mystery too. I'll get up to speed, but it will take a bit. Please be patient. I don't want to disregard the owner about cleaning up my posts. This site has a seemingly much different format than any other forum I am familiar with, which I was not expecting.

Thanks EJ...that was my uncles name. Just "EJ". It didn't stand for anything.

Typically, I jumped in with both feet after I signed up, and didn't give due regard to familiarizing myself with the site first. It's just that I saw something which stirred passion...I couldn't help it . I should have given the owner the courtesy of reading his intro material though, so shame on me. It's pretty neat for someone to go through all the headaches involved in running such a site, and the least courtesy newcomers can offer is to read the guidelines. I apologize for being rude. So hello everyone. This appears to be a great site for discussing the golf swing, which is my passion. I'm a swing junkie. I do have views which will be controversial, and which will challenge the accepted norms. I don't shy away from that. If that is a problem, I will not be accepted here. We'll see how it goes. I would hope that I can make some friends along the way. If at any time the owners would rather I not post here, I would appreciate the courtesy of being told straight up, and I'll leave. I'm trying to learn tact when expressing my views. I'm sure to fail on occasion, but I am trying. I'm on the eastern shore of Mobile Bay, on the Gulf coast of Alabama; born and grew up in Pensacola Fl. I'm 65 yrs of age. I have been developing a particular swing for many years which I call "Pure and Simple Golf Swing". The results I have been getting lately tell me I am on the right track. "My Swing" was posted prematurely, I think as an attempt to keep me out of a train wreck on another thread. I'm fine that it is posted however. It's already created quite a lively discussion. I'm here in part to test my theories and findings against your critique. So bring it on! I'm not trying to sell anything. I have no plans but to continue developing this swing, and record the whats and whys on youtube. Will I ever try to sell something? If a book is feasible one day, I'll sell it. On the web, I plan to freely give it all. That's my thinking at present. I primarily want to get it organized in legible fashion before I die. If I continue to get similar results (and document them for proof), I will know that I have something of value to contribute to this alluring game of golf. Joe

If my hands rotated, why do they finish in the exact same position as at set-up according to my sight line? In other words, if I looked at my hands at set-up, that's what they would look like. They've lifted obviously; I allow follow through momentum to take 'em away from the shoulder joints, but they are still center to my chest, and that club face looks dead on my spine angle. You're going to have to show me this rotation or it didn't happen. Sorry, I hit the wrong quote button.

No. Tewell is resurrecting the John Jacobs Square to Square, which came out in the early 70's or so. I studied the article in Golf Digest and applied it. It works to a degree. Controlling the position of that left thumb at the top gave me a 260 drive with a draw back in those days, but it didn't hold up for me. While Doug does a good job of retaining the triangle, he does allow it to raise considerably,

Read my response to iacas about selling something. In the swing I posted, indeed I allowed club momentum to raise the left arm a bit, which skews the triangle plane slightly. I normally attempt to not allow that. There is a fine line between elasticity and allowing the arms to follow club momentum at change of direction. I'm still unsure of which way works best, so am experimenting with it. Regarding rotation of the forearms, it will take a better camera than what I use to detect any. When I watch the back of the left hand, I see it remaining square to it's arc. I see the palm of the right hand dead square to it's return arc, and accept for the slight "loop" due to weight shift, I see the same hand arc traced going down. If ulnar rotation occurs late in the swing, I do not consider that a problem, as long as the elbows remain down, relative to one another, and relative to the rib cage. For more flexible swingers, the elbows will rotate around the thorax as the shoulders separate from the rib cage, but only near the top. I'm finding there is no need to coil that much. coiling the thorax and rib cage as one unit is providing more power than I know what to do with, but to each his own there.

That's fine. I'm in no position to try and teach at this juncture, and I really don't see having students. On a very limited basis down the road, maybe. If I am on to something that could improve golf, my main interest is to get it down in understandable form somewhere before I die. I freely discuss all aspects of my theories and findings for anyone who wishes to know. If you have professional guidance at present, then by all means, you should stick to one program.

I haven't answered for two reasons. First, I haven't figured out the multi option yet, nor have I figured out how to copy/paste. Per your request, I'd like to figure all that out prior to much more discussion. Additionally, it's because our discussion caused me to do some serious study and contemplation. In response, I plan to start a thread illustrating why I think the TGM measuring guide is incorrect, and that my swing is on plane. I sense that specific topic warrants it's own thread, no? That is the basis of our disagreement. I'll await word from you before I start it. Fair enough? I have an appointment to be filmed and measured on Wed June 4 by a professional. The trick for me is to be able to get one of my correctly executed swings on film. I think I'm confident enough to pull it off. No, I am not here to sell anything for money. I am here to "sell" something though. The purity of my good hits and the distances I am getting tell me I may have something to offer in understanding the golf swing. I say may. I'm willing to put it to the test of critique here. And by the way. I'm calling BS on the compensation. You want me to prove my claim and you won't show me the compensation? BS until you do.

Down the road yes. I have more proving to myself to do, and I'd rather spend my time trying to make this swing second nature for now. Plus, I want to play again, but won't, until I feel reasonably proficient with it. The worst thing I could do right now is try to play and get lost on the course, reverting to my old feels. I do have learning plans, learning drills, specific exercises, etc., but most people will probably not go along with the program I envision (extensive classroom and movement exercises before ever touching a club, then baby steps starting with chipping). I've been through all the trial and error frustrations of trying to learn it, so I know the difficulty of new and alien feels, and how to develop them without all the pitfalls. I plan to do videos on YT. When depends on my individual progress, and confirmation in my mind by consistently executing the swing accurately.

I don't consider this a particular good swing after looking at the video. I'm set up with feet closed, the torso rotation is funky, and there is a lot of slop in it. What's notable is, despite all the flaws, it carried 150 yds uphill, high, soaring, and straight ( Titleist 735.CM pitching wedge). I have a better swing from today I'll maybe post later. It went 144 up that hill. But I'm still not where I want to be with it, technique wise. I think the first key to note is what will be considered a 1/2 swing. I consider this a full swing. As my flexibility improves, I may turn a little further, but no more than what most people consider 3/4. Personally, I wish the PGA would clearly define a full swing in terms of "Viable Range of Motion" (VROM), rather than using a 90 degree turn as a measure for a "full swing"; a 90 degree turn is far from necessary for power, and most people lose vital positions when they try, making it hard work to return with any authority. Learning is much easier staying within VROM. I still fight the need to reach back a little further, but the results are beginning to make that less and less so. The deeper I get into this swing, the more I am thinking that lifting the arms relative to the torso is wasted energy. It's interesting to note, and most people don't know this, that if you rotate the torso without raising the arms, you would have to turn 180 degrees before the hands reach shoulder height, based on normal set-up. (Moe Norman, with his arm plane near perpendicular to his spine angle, would indeed reach shoulder height with a 90 degree turn.) By that measure, anyone who surpasses about sternum high hands is lifting the arms, requiring hinging at the shoulder joints. If this makes any sense, I never worry about the club plane. I try to swing a stable triangle on it's plane, and allow the club to swing freely at the tip of that triangle. I do this by keeping the elbows down, relative to each other, and relative to the rib cage. Easier said, a single hinge swing (wrists only), which makes for a much simpler motion than trying to get the hands high. I consider this a square swing. The hands and club face remain square to their arcs at least to waist high. I feel as if they remain square throughout. If club momentum creates any forearm rotation, I don't worry about it as long as I keep my elbows in place. And it is a great feeling to allow that right arm and hand to slam through the ball knowing it's square, which you can see in this video. I don't "do" anything with the arms; I just rotate the rib cage. Lastly, I never think about sequencing, timing, "drop in the slot", hip bump or rotation, lag, knee kick, or any of the other swing thoughts which consume so much learning time. As long as I keep the right side brace, knee flex, head over the inside of the trailing thigh at transition, and arm pits "glued", rotate the rib cage is all I do. Everything else is automatic from there. I'm happy to answer any questions and welcome critique. Joe

Ok! Sorry if it was too much about my swing over there...wasn't my intent. Thanks.