TXHusker

A fundamentally sound grip doesn't mean that it can't be weak, strong, or neutral. No does it mean that it can't be interlocking, overlap, or even 10-finger. Mr. Lohren's perspective is that the grip is one of the primary drivers of the swing motion. At least in our case, so far, so good.

Y es, and slightly forward, because that hand is reaching down further. Unless you are purposely keeping your shoulder square to the other, it naturally opens very slightly because it is reaching further down the shaft. Try it in your mirror. No beginner's swing is going to be automatic. But I believe that my son's swing, if the club is gripped correctly, with the correct set-up, and the correct start, is as close to automatic as it can be. That's not saying it's PGA or perfect. But it does repeat. There are multiple set-ups, but any accomplished golfer will have a sound set-up, commensurate with his physique. T his was a comment more about ball impact, Hogan contradicted himself on this, as he also said he desired to have the left wrist pronated through impact. We go with the latter. I believe that a golf swing, when trained correctly and with the correct set-up and grip, can be as natural as casting a fly line 50 feet across the water...when it is done well, when a player is on fire, it certainly comes very naturally. The pre-shot routine doesn't make a good player, but no good player will be without a good pre-shot routine. I'll try to video his swing this weekend and post a clip. So far, so good.

Tell your friend to quit mocking contributors on the forum. Never did I claim that anyone with a perfect grip - if there ever was such a thing, was going to hit it like a pro. I feel like I have a great grip and I can't break an egg.

Who gave you the liberty to assign my profile an avatar? You're pathetic.

I would happily grant your request if I thought you were being anything but a pompous jerk. Good day.

I can't speak for any other golfer, nor any other teacher. Carl Lohren is our guy. While my son has had his ups and downs, he has won or medaled in over 40 junior events in the last 6 seasons. Certainly there are different swings, but the most successful of them tend to share some key fundamentals. Like I said, Carl has worked with many professionals. We place a lot of weight in what he says; so far, so good.

i think it all depends on your perspective: we pay Carl $150 per lesson. This is a guy who worked with Chi Chi, Trevino, Hallberg, Player, and even Nicklaus a bit, so he commands a premium. As for time spent on the grip and set-up, plus the left shoulder motion, Carl believes these to be the "Intel pentium chip" that governs the entire athletic move that we call the swing. Once these things are in place, Carl says everything else "is in the hands of the good Lord." So if you place that amount of importance on something like the grip, 3 hours or so working on each hand as it holds the club is nothing. As for my son, when his hitting goes astray, we find there has been one of the following: 1. A denigration of the grip in some way - undetectable to even many trained eyes. 2. A denigration in the set-up - including alignment, posture, and ball position. So these two are where we spend all our time and money, because we place the highest importance on them.

I would say so, yes. And quite a bit of $$$ on set-up, posture, and waggle. But after that, it's been smooth sailing until we start screwing those things up!

Wow. I think the horse done left the barn there... I bet I've spent a $ thousand on Carl just helping my son get his grip right.

No question about it, Carl refers back to Hogan over and over again. He knew Ben Hogan. He is old school. He is all about the left side controlling the swing, and this is initiated by correct set-up, grip, and posture. His position is that the other things in the swing - incorrect swing plane, hitting from the top, etc., are simply symptoms of problems in the set up and swing start. He doesn't like you to refer to the backswing as a "takeaway" at all, as this infers that the club is being "taken" - by the right side - which causes many woes. He refers to it as the "start" of the swing. And again, the square shoulders thing he says is a myth that just gets repeated over and over again. The shoulders shouldn't be squared, because they are naturally open as a result of the right hand being lower on the golf club, and you're going to come back to this position on the follow-through anyway because it is perfectly natural to do so. In Carl's mind, ANY adjustment at address - turning the hips to and fro, squaring the shoulders, pointing the feet certain directions, these are all UNNATURAL movements that prevent your body from making what should be a very natural swing. They are artificial items, that, tossed in, make a very artificial swing that is difficult to repeat. Thus...my son always has shoulders slightly open at address, and he hits a nice draw most of the time. His problems arise when the left shoulder doesn't control the swing - that is, when he starts snatching the club around with his right hand and arm. That puts the golfer in a position of "recovery" for the rest of the swing in an attempt to find the slot, and the results often are not very pretty. As I mentioned earlier, Carl is obsessive about the grip. He claims that if you do not have a fundamentally sound grip with "fundamentally sound" being a very tight window - you have no chance to score well. He once told my son "that's a fine grip....as long as you never want to break 80. That's not a 70s grip you currently have...it's an 80s grip." Another big deal for Carl is the pre-shot routine. He has spent hours with my son on how to step into his stance properly over the ball at address, and the waggle. The purpose of the waggle is extremely important - it is a "mini-swing" that allows the player to reduce tension and prime the left shoulder.

I'm not going to bore you with all of the details, but several years ago, I discovered a certain Carl Lohren living on a farm in eastern TN. As it turns out, this man has a pretty darned illustrious past in the world of golf, as a player but more importantly as a teacher. He has worked with my 14 year old son on a number of occasions, and I am going to share with you some nuggets from Carl that are in quite a bit of contrast with the modern teaching. But I can tell you this, his results speak for themselves. Feel free to post questions on this thread, as I know I'm going to leave a lot out: 1. The grip - Carl is incessant on this. We have spent many hours getting the grip right. He says if it is wrong, the right side of the body will take over the swing, and almost all poor shots are a result of the right side of the body. The right hand grip must be FINGERS ONLY, no palm. I will address the left hand when I have more time. 2. "Open shoulders" - you hear "square your shoulders" all the time, and Carl says this is utter b.s. It is an unnatural move, as the shoulders are ALWAYS NATURALLY OPEN at address due to the simple fact that the right hand is further down the club. He says all of the good players have their shoulders open to the target several degrees at address due to this, and artificially adjusting it over the ball leads to a lot of problems. Cites Hogan and many others. 3. Forget about swing plane. If your posture and set-up are correct, and you begin the swing with the left shoulder (quiet hands, arms, and hips), the plane is correct automatically. There is no thought to it. More to come soon! But this should be a fun thread.

This next few weeks will be interesting around our house. He clearly isn't on varsity right now and might not be again this fall. That means he will not be playing in several upcoming tournaments. One thing we have struggled with in regard to his golf performance is the lack of ownership on his part. He likes to pull the victim card: "I got robbed" "I got bad bounces" "So-and-so shouldn't be shooting better than me" "I need a mental coach" These are all crutches, and assign the blame to someone else. A lot of this is simply lack of maturity (he's not quite 15), but what we are really reiterating is that, in life or golf, you have to own your stuff. You don't shoot your number, you're not on varsity. It doesn't really matter how many bad bounces you got, or what someone else is shooting. For him, varsity will require qualifying scores of 40 or below - period. If he's above that, he's likely playing JV. And to shoot 40 and below, he has to take care of the shots around the green - no 3-putts, careless chips and pitches, etc. So right now, it's about ownership and taking care of the little things.

UPDATE: He shot 43 today in a qualifying round. That's a far cry from varsity, but a heck of an improvement over his last two weeks of scores. Confidence returning, getting back to competitive.

Update: While the old adage that golf is "ninety percent mental" is popular, the truth is, there has to be quite a bit of "physical" in golf, too. No question, my son has been suffering from a lack of confidence. But a lack of confidence is often a result of poor play, which is usually a result of poor fundamentals: grip, stance, posture, and ball position. I took a long look at my son's swing today and identified the following: First of all, at yesterday's tournament, my son started out fair, then took a three-over and two-over on back-to back holes. I asked him about his thought process after these holes on the way home, and he admitted that he somewhat became hopeless about the rest of the round. Of course, that led to a mess. So, the first thing that I am telling him is that no matter what, regardless of how poorly he has played a hole and how early in the round, he has to have the mental strength not to lose interest in the remainder of the round. By doing so, he is costing himself and the team. On the first tee, he needs to be committed to staying with the round no matter the score. As for mechanics, I have two issues going on, both of which we are addressing through practice outside of team practice: 1. On his swing, he is tending to swing with overactive arms and hands. This begins at the start of the swing and causes him to do all sorts of ugly things: Backswing off plane, hands manipulating the club, early release, and of ultimately, hits that are not solid and heading in various directions. The root of this, and the fix, is actually very easy: He is tending to palm the grip slightly in his right hand, which promotes a “jerk away”, either up, out, or in, with the right side. An incorrect right hand grip, even a slight one, is a killer for consistency, because it allows the right side to take over the swing which causes ALL SORTS of issues. So the first order of business to ensure that the right hand grip on the club is “all fingers, no palm.” The left grip is currently sound. Once this right hand is on the club correctly, the swing thought we are working with is “shoulders.” That is, the left shoulder should initiate and dictate the swing , resulting in a full shoulder turn. Once this happens, everything else falls into place. When he cheats on this, that is, he manipulates the club with the right hand and doesn’t complete a shoulder turn, the ball flight is generally a short cut or a low pull. So right now, the swing thought is simply “Shoulders Swing”. We worked on this extensively today with success. So I think this week should be a springboard back!

Update: Played in tournament today at 6400 yards and shot 93. PAINFUL to watch. Poor drives, poor seconds, bad decisions, few up&downs.; Kids he beats with regularity smoked him today. He's very frustrated and doesn't know what to do next. He asked me "dad what happened, and will I ever play well again?". My answer was "of course you will," to which he replied "when?" I responded that we can't ask questions that can't be answered: when, how, and why. All we can do is move forward and know that you're still a talented player who has had some uncharacteristically high rounds...go back to the basics - chipping, putting, and pitching. That at least got him to bed, but I've got quite a job in my hands with him. He's quite down. I will post updates. My best guess is that he will lot leap out of this slump. It will be a slow crawl...back to breaking 90, then 85, then 80, step by step.

I totally agree. This 7400 yard course he had to play was absolutely ridiculously long. I even told the coach "I'm all about difficulty, but this is just sadistic." Plus, it was saturated with rain, so there was zero roll on tee shots. That said, there as a 70 shot that day by a high-schooler! I was worried that it would shake him up, and I believe that it did and that we are still recovering. This was a Big 12 collegiate course, and I think the brass there had too much ego and wanted to prove how difficult the course was. As a result, many of the competitors didn't have fun. I'm not quite sure who wins in that scenario, but it's certainly not the participants. If he's playing a 6000 yard course, he has a reasonable chance to scratch. But once it reaches 6400-6700, it's all about how clean his short game is. If the chipper and pitcher are working on all cylinders, it's an 80-82. If not, it is an 85-87

I'm wondering if you guys can give me some input: My son of 14 years old (still pre/early puberty) recently made varsity at his 6A high school in Texas. He made the top 5 (4th man I believe) with qualifying scores of from 39 to 41 over a period of about a half dozen rounds. It's really remarkable, because he is quite literally a boy playing with men. It's not uncommon for him to get out-driven by 60 to 80 yards. Yet he finds a way to at least keep it respecatble. In his first varsity tournament, he did decently on the first day at a pretty easy course - 83 - and the next day he ballooned to a 92 on a 7400 yard course. He is only 5'2 and still not yet 100 pounds. His drive goes about 210 max. Then it's a 3 wood into the green most of the time, and often a pitch on and try to one-putt. So....it's quite a stretch at this juncture to even break 80 on courses that are 6700 yards + simply because of his physique. The worrisome part is I think he may have really lost his confidence, as he got demoted to JV last weekend and shot an uncharacteristically high 87, then shot 48 and 47 in this week's qualifying rounds! He's having "dumpster fire" holes each nine - triples and quads, and the rest of the holes are relatively decent. Is this just a slump phase he is in that he will work out of? Is this common in competitive golf? Is there anything I should be doing to help him? Thank you in advance, from a worried dad! This kid REALLY wants to play college golf, etc., but watching him shoot high 40s right now is horrific!