Jay Chizza

Does he? Some of my favorite vids of his are when he features instructors like the GREAT, Mike Malaska... Monte Shcheinblum... I've seen a ton of BE BETTER GOLF and cannot recall an instance where he gave instruction.. Always the student. That said, the USGA has spoken. They literally said that "he's a pro regardless of skill." Wow. Anyone, can be a professional golfer regardless of skill. Crazy isn't it?

A YouTuber who is a pro golfer. Who knew... So, the title of the thread was amended to: "Are Golf YouTubers Pro Golfers?" - Based on the evidence submitted by Missouri Swede, the answer is; Yes. Topic done.

Agreed. A YouTuber is only considered a professional golfer when that YouTuber uploads content which shows him receiving compensation for giving instruction on swinging mechanics and hitting a golf ball. In no other instance can a person who uploads golf content to YouTube be considered a professional golfer. It's time to sell a $5 lesson on how to slice a golf ball, upload it to YouTube, just to "technically" call myself a pro golfer . Case closed. 😂😂😂😂

I built a channel... quickly. Got mad at it. Killed it. New on in the works. I may have this one the rest of my golfing life. That aside, it's all about leverage my friend. Highly successful YouTubers use as many other peoples time and energy to grow their channels as possible. Namely editors. There is an oversupply of editors right now. You can get top notch talent cheap. Also, success on YouTube requires that you have your "own lane." For instance, within Golf YouTube you have "Mr. ShortGame" - he built his channel on just that... "The Short Game." You never saw him talking about a driver, or ball striking until well after he'd established himself as Mr. Short Game. Then, you have MSE. He's all about documenting his journey to developing the perfect Ben Hogan Swing. I enjoy both channels. I also enjoy GolfHolics which to me, is the PERFECT Golf Vlog channel. Erik Anders Lang is a beast as well. They all have unique identities. You'll never "confuse" them. Creating, and staying in your own lane fosters deep connections with audiences. This is why GolfHolics can easily sell a $1,000 golf outing whereas, it's tough for many to sell a $150 tournament. Great YouTubers connect with their audiences. Audiences develop "attachments" to creators and as long as the creator is active, they need not worry about "being knocked off" because none of us can be duplicated.

Sweet. So anyone can earn piles of cash as a golf entertainer, and still play USGA / SGA events? This PLUS NCAA rolling back rules against athletes making money. Heavens... bout to be a lot of very instantly wealthy college freshman in a few years.

So when the USGA says; “Golf reputation can only be gained through golf skill” - is it fair to say that’s your interpretation is they mean this as a matter of USGA policy, and not necessarily as a matter of fact? Also, Is a trick shot artist who earned revenue from YouTube a professional golfer? A great deal of skill is required to execute trick shots, and the person has earned a reputation from uploading these trick shots to YouTube, and he’s made money, and he cannot participate in any USGA event(Juniors, US Am, etc) , and he lost his NCAA scholarship because of his trick shot videos. Is that kid not a professional golfer? Did the USGA an NCAA get it wrong? There are many blurry lines indeed. This would be a mighty fine rabbit hole to go into because there are so many examples. Then why did the USGA ban a teenage trick shot artist from participating in USGA events? Why was his scholarship pulled by the NCAA? Why did they declare him a professional golfer? Just a kid doing some trick shots that happened to go viral, thrown on ESPN, and all of a sudden his golf life is ruined. Well not really, he loves what he does. But you get the point.

For sure. It's a grind though. But fun... I enjoy it. Here's a link to Social Blade for a Channel I love. These guys play off a 5 handicap. Golfholics's YouTube Stats (Summary Profile) - Social Blade Stats View the daily YouTube analytics of Golfholics and track progress charts, view future predictions, related channels, and track realtime live sub counts. They sell a ton of their own branded merchandise. $1,000 golf outings. Equipment deals, etc. I'd say their channel and ventures pull in at least $500k / yr. On top of all the free green fees they get at amazing golf courses. Great guys too. Just one example.

It actually seems a bit more nuanced than that and I appreciate your chiming in because maybe you can help further contextualize this. I copied and pasted this from the USGA Website. Golf Skill or Reputation What does it mean to have “golf skill or reputation”? It’s up to the Governing Body (e.g., USGA) to decide whether an amateur golfer has golf skill or reputation. Golf reputation can only be gained through golf skill. An amateur golfer is very likely to possess golf skill if the following is true: he or she has competitive success at a regional or national level, or he or she has been selected to represent a national, regional, state or county golf association, or he or she competes at an elite level (e.g., competes at national championships). How does having golf skill or reputation affect me? If you have golf skill or reputation, you may not leverage that skill or reputation as a golfer, through promotion or advertising, to receive a financial or other kind of benefit – see Rule 6-2. For example, you may not appear as a golfer in an advertisement for a company, including your own, even if you are not paid or compensated. So I am hoping you can help me out here. The site says "reputation can only be earned through golf skill." I am not quite sure if they are saying that as a matter of fact, or a matter of policy. Is it their POLICY that golf reputation can be earned only through golf skill, or is it a matter of fact? IF it's a matter of fact, then do you think the USGA should update it? In 1921 it was fair to say; "golf reputation can be only earned through skill." Whereas today, golf reputation can be earned through uploading content to social media. Please advise. Thanks again for your input!

There are a growing number of (Golf) YouTubers who are making nice high six figure to low seven figure sums on an annual basis from essentially uploading golf videos to YouTube and IG. Big brand equipment companies are basically "gobbling up" any creator / influencer who is on the uptick... Then there's merchandise sales, ad revenue, affiliate income, golf outing income and ancillary sponsorships. One of my favorite channels features a pair who play off a 12 handicap. They're crushing it. My question is, in the eyes of USGA or local golf association, would they be considered professional golfers? If so, what a time to be alive. All you need a 12 handicap and a camera (phone) to "go pro" and make millions over the course of your lifetime playing golf. Can anyone offer any insights on this?

Thank you for demonstrating expert status on a brain fart a stranger on the internet posted to a forum. I'm sorry the idea ruffled your feathers. Try not to let the innocuous ideas that strangers post on the internet ruffle your feathers. Those birdies you'll be making for the rest of your golfing life need those feathers. Additionally, would you say it takes creativity to become a professional golfer and be out on tour? I hear it on TV all the time, most recently about how creative Patrick Reed is around the greens after his recent win. If you agree that it requires creativity, then perhaps turn your thinking cap on in reverse, and play a brain game with yourself... Figure out HOW you can make something like this work... Not why it can't, won't, will never work. How does a group of Rich Saudi's who start this prevent someone like you from posting an 18 handicap and robbing me? Should this group of rich Saudi's insist that only tournament rounds count towards your handicap? Would that force people to post honest scores and eliminate the "rounds with their buddies?" I'm able to think about this from all angles. Why this can't work, why it can work. I can do so without any biases or emotions. My creativity puts food on the table... That said, this exercise won't be meant for you to "change your mind." Rather, it will help you to control your emotions and biases and empower you to critically examine ideas strangers post on the internet from all angels.. That's a powerful mental skill to have.

It's amazing that you have devoted so many brain cells to my brain fart! Amazing. A lot of stuff to unpack here. First... It's important to understand that I posted a question based on my desire to consume a product. As a consumer, I would love to throw $x,00 or $x,000 $xx,000 into a tournament to compete with players in my skill level. Your replies reflect an examination into a "business idea." It seems that my OP was interpreted as my soliciting the opinions of strangers on the internet as it relates to a business idea. I'm not sure what kind of serious entrepreneur does that... That notwithstanding, IF this were to be an examination of a business idea, we'd have to throw away ALL of your assumptions - AND MINE. Then, here's EXACTLY what we do... Create some marketing. Put 100% into making it look like the proposed offering does in fact exist. Buy hyper targeted traffic on social media which points people to a funnel. "Sign Up to Join the Really Bad Golfer Tour to Claim Your Shot at Golf Riches!!!" Measure conversions at the top of the funnel. The top of the funnel starts with your CTR. Test and iterate for optimal CTR... Then... Push people a page what presents them with an offer; "Sign Up to Get..." Then, measure opt-in rates. Start pushing your opt-ins to surveys in exchange for an incentive; "complete survey for $XX Golf Galaxy Gift Card." Make sure the survey is designed to answer the most important question... Whatever that is. Then, if all tests come back positive, and survey results gathered, THEN you can start making assumptions. THEN, you TEST those assumptions. If those assumptions are affirmed, then you ship a minimum viable product. In this instance, it could be a one nine holer tournament. Build. Measure. Learn. This is called lean startup methodology. The Lean Start Up teaches us to avoid making assumptions, and to run tests. The lean startup teaches us to build, measure, and learn and iterate through a feedback loop so as to make it nearly impossible to invest significant sums of money, and time building stuff no one wants. That being said, I'm kinda tied up with the startup I'm presently working on... no time to build a golf gambling business but can't wait till someone nails it so I can participate!

Also, can I ask you a question? What would the average PGA Pro think of hacks playing for big bucks? It's probably unfair for me to ask you to speak for all PGA Pros, so I'll ask you. How would YOU personally feel to know of a tournament with a $1M prize pool, where the average handicap is 15 for example? From MY perspective as a crappy golfer, no one grows up aspiring to be a teaching professional (those who do are in the extreme minority). Most PGA Pros had designs on playing professionally so I were to put myself in a pros' shoes, I'd be sick to my stomach. Hacks slap sticking around the course playing for 5 and 6 figure sums of cash... I'd throw up all over my wedges.... personally. You?

I very sorry for the confusion. This is the internet and one thing I've learned about communicating online is that it's easily for points to be missed, or misinterpreted. It seems that most people on this thread have construed my question to be my pitching a business idea. I could be wrong, but when I read replies like "you can try" in earlier replies, and your raising "legitimate concerns and roadblocks," it generally means there's been an examination fo a business idea. Am I wrong? That said, I just wanted to know why hacks couldn't gamble on golf for big bucks. I wanted to know why such a "product" did not exist. I would love to consume this product if it existed. I would love to siphon off money from my poker bankroll to gamble on golf with other hacks. I have zero interest in building this as a business. I just want to go somewhere, throw $x,000 or $xx,000 into a pot, compete against 155 other guys, and walk away with the biggest check I can. Nonetheless, As you perfectly stated, I am in the extreme minority. The replies I've received on this thread demonstrate the fact that I am in the extreme minority. Perhaps I could have made my point a bit more succinct. I will give you this... maybe "resisting change" was a poor choice of words. I'll give you that. But, it's an incontrovertible fact that us humans don't take too kindly to new ideas that fly against the norm. Is that more fair? Does this thread not demonstrate what psychology has taught us? I hope this clarifies things.

In all fairness, I never estimated market size. I did use the Myrtle Beach WorldAM as an example. Principally, to point out their approach to dealing with sandbaggers. However, that wasn't my "estimating the market." That being said, great point on timeshares and such. The original investors asked AirBNB how they expected to differentiate from the business models you pointed out, you should def take a peak at their original slide deck. But, in trying to illustrate a point, I see how the essence of what I was saying can get lost. To be more laser precise... Is there a market of hacks willing to gamble money on golf? Yes. Do you or I know the market size? No. Would I be a willing participant? You bet. Do I care about maintaining "amateur status?" No. Are there more people who feel the same way? I say yes. Can I say how many feel the same way? No. Would I be willing to bet the life of my children that the MGM Grand Can Successfully Host a $10,000 Buy-In Handicapped Golf Tournament at Shadow Creek for folks who shoot high 80's / low 90's? I certainly would. Would I participate? In a heartbeat. This thread has been insightful. So many layers to this thread. If you look at it from 10,000 feet above, totally removed you see human nature at work. We are wired with this button that automatically resist change. We are wired to instantly reject any ideas or thoughts that fly against conventional beliefs. We can't help it. We were wired that way as a survival mechanism. That being said... I digress... Resistance to change is why golf handicaps haven't gone down in decades, even thought technology has improved. This has been truly fascinating and thank you for your participation.

This is one of those things where it will just require some rich Saudi's to throw a bunch of money to turn this concept into a business I guess, lol. That aside, think about this from all angles... Random example to give context.. when AirBNB first launched they were flamed to bits. I've never, to this day seen such a flaming of a tech start up in my life. "Who's going to just rent out their house to some stranger?" "Who's just going to rent out a spare bed room to some stranger?!" Ha! "This is the dumbest idea ever." Now, they're a mega multi billion dollar company. Back then, the idea sounded completely ridiculous. I'm not going to lie, I thought the investors were drunk. That being said, when I said a big time Casino chain could slap their name on a concept like this and kill it... I really mean it. The MGM for Example has the Shadow Creek Golf Course where Tiger and Phil had "the match." It would be absolutely NO problem for them to get 100 guys to put $10,000 into a golf tournament where best net score wins (with strict anti sandbagging measures in place = very very loose "disqualify" button). There'd be all sorts of side bets, prop bets, etc. Their main problem would be getting enough people who've posted enough scores to GHIN in order to be handicapped in the first place. I see the demographic being the gambler / golfer type who doesn't really care much about maintaining his "amateur status" if he can gamble on golf in an environment that feels "safe" (very liberal disqualify button). I've made my living off this motto "there's riches in the niches." By the way... every idea starts off as a dumb idea. Generally speaking, any idea that goes against "the norm" is considered a bad idea. It's how we humans are wired. Can you imagine the very first person who said to his family; "I'm going to start a business!" The family said "what business?" The person said; "I'm going to put water in bottles and sell it." Family says; "oh dear, see a doc, the water is free!" I alluded to AirBNB above. People willing to rent their homes to total strangers were in an extreme minority. Many people swore there were no people willing to rent their homes to total strangers. Now look. The annals of history is littered with what sounded like really bad ideas, that actually turned out otherwise. Steve Jobs told his staff; "we're going to put an entire computer in peoples' pocket." Can you imagine being those engineers? The very first iPhone prototype was the size of an old school DVD player. Therefore... I surmise it may be easier to get a bunch of hacks to gamble on golf. Count me in!

Yes indeed. But, at the same time, if you win a car at a charity golf tournament, if you choose to accept the prize, you lose your USGA amateur status. But at the same time, you don't lose your amateur status by merely entering the charity tournament, whereas your entry into a tournament that pays cash automatically disqualifies you from USGA. That being said, I think it's a matter of personal preference / choice.... Personally, if there was a tournament like a "World AM that paid cold hard cash," I'd gladly renounce my amateur status, in two seconds.

Truly great insights! I never proposed a $100 tournament. I gave an example of the Myrtle Beach WorldAm winner. I think the entry fee was around $500. The world champ walked away with roughly the equivalent in gift cards, entry fee to next years' tournament, and a trophy. But, let's have some fun with the Myrtle Beach WorldAM model / numbers shall we... I believe there were around 3,000 entries. 3,000 * $500 = $1.5M in total gross entry fees... Let's say their profit margin is 30%. So $450,000. They're not likely going to want to put profits in to a prize pool, so... Bump the entry fee to $600. $100 directly into prize pool for a total $300,000k purse to be divvied up between flight winners and championship round. World Champ gets 10% of total purse and rest of field flight winners share the remaining $270k Just an example.

There a zillion and one options for playing competitive golf indeed. Tons of options locally, and nationally. From club tournaments (the "Mini Masters" for me soon), to national / regional stuff like what the Golf Channel is doing. I think it would be cool for big handicaps to be able to play for "big" bucks (relatively speaking). Not just gift cards and pro shop credits.

Great points raised. Let me start with the question... What if someone legitimately shoots the round of their lives? To that I'd say "trust the math." This "idea" basically boils down to a math problem. Math doesn't have feelings or emotions, and if money is at stake, then I'd say that the person who shot the round of their lives must be eliminated from receiving prize money. That's the only way that works. "You holed out from 70 yards AND you holed some miraculous chip shots?" Sorry, too bad. Disqualified. Nothing personal. Just math. People have traveled far and wide just to see their name on an "official leaderboard in a pro feeling tournament" - The WorldAM, and have been eliminated from competition. Day 2 is elimination day. Dozens of people are eliminated in total. Yet, the event continues to draw... continues to grow. Even though every year, starting day two hundreds of golfers face "disqualifies row." That aside, I'm placing myself in the shoes of a 12 capper who just put down $100 to beat a bunch of other 10-12 cappers butts for some cash. I'm likely to continue to participate as long as I feel like it's extremely difficult for me to get robbed. Will the person who shot the round of their lives return? Who knows. But, I will because again, I don't feel like I can get easily robbed and it gives me a sense of security. Pretzel, you raised some very good points regarding variability. But as it relates to it being the same as other net scoring events, I'd beg to differ. This whole post was predicated on the idea that cold hard cash, green backs would be embedded within the Myrtle Beach WorldAM Model. Not this maximum $750 cash / prize value stuff. The guy who won as a high handicapper and become world champ got a couple of gift cards, free entry, and a trophy I believe. What if that same guy could walk away with a check for $25,000 USD instead? What if the guy in 2nd got $10,000 in cold hard cash? 3rd $5,000 - and so on. All 12-15 cappers... That being said, you seem to be a very skilled golfer and are speaking from the lens of a highly skilled golfer. However, this "brain fart" only works for the unskilled golfer. I just don't see a way to market this concept to a 0-5 handicap golfer. Any large Hotel / Casino chain could slap their names on a concept like this and sell out tournaments in the poker room alone. "Hacks playing for big buckets of cash..." Sounds gross and exciting at the same time.

Regarding sandbagging, the solution the organizers came up with at Myrtle Beach was to issue judgments based on statistical data. Sandbag = DQ from prize eligibility. You can finish the tournament, but you're not eligible to receive as much as a ham sandwich at the end, much less compete in the Championship round. A BUNCH of DQ's are handed out every summer. I would imagine that there have been one or two legit "once in a lifetime rounds," but, with thousands of people there, they were not taking any chances. I just dug this link up... http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/2010-12-busted.html

Thank you for this response. What I had in mind would essentially be tournaments that are scored based on net scoring. For example, a double digit handicap golfer was declared "World Champ" at last years' Myrtle Beach WorldAM. That's why I went. I had a "realistic chance" of becoming world champ as a double digit handicap. That's what draws thousands upon thousands of people there every year. However, there were flights with golfers with handicaps as low as scratch. Certain flights were gross scoring, other flights were net scoring. The gentleman who won in 2018, "beat better golfers." To that end, the target market would be the overwhelming majority of golfers who post gross scores in the range of 85-95. These guys are already throwing $20 into skins games on Saturdays, why not throw the same $20 into a prize pool where X% are paid out?

Hello all, I've been doing a bunch of research and cannot drill down an answer... I'm trying to figure out what forces are there that are preventing folks from gathering and playing for prize money, tournament style? Just like a poker tournament. You put your money in, the "house" takes a rake, and the rest of the money is distributed amongst the top 10% to 20% of finishers. I ask because I participated in the largest handicapped tournament in the world - the US WorldAM and it was a great experience. It had a "big event feel" to it and that was a major draw for many of us making the trek. I call it the "US Open for Bad Golfers." That said, myself and some guys in my flight got to talking about this, and thought it would be pretty cool. I understand that the USGA will not approve. But, the USGA doesn't govern all golfers. Add to that, less than 1% of golfers will play in a USGA event or even local / state Amateur Championship... It seems like the demand is there, but the product is not. I am wondering why? What am I missing? What's the big pink elephant in the room that I'm too blind to see?