slicer2scratch

If you compared the hip positions at the top of the backswings you will see certainly Tigers right hip is higher than the left here just not as much as yours. IMO I believe shifting a little weight with your hips as you rotate would help you acheive this more level looking rotation of the hips. Also you will notice a slightly more elevated arm position as well. IMO, the SLIGHT weight shift and more level looking hip rotation would help you rotate your whole body a hair more. The elevated arm position would help the arms get down more in front of your body getting the club more from the inside. P.S. this is an older clip of Tiger and is not what he currently looks like or is working on!(thats another topic) I dont want to cause any confusion or try and seem like im being deceiving.

Your clubface is not open going back or at the top of your backswing...However there is not as much elevation of your arms as I would prefer at the top of your backswing. I believe the lack of elevation in your arms comes from not much of a level hip/core rotation going back.Pga tour average hip turn is around 45 degrees.Of course a faceon camera angle would help diagnose this alot better.It is likely from this backswing position(arms fairly low and behind your body,without much core rotation) that your arms have a difficult time getting back down on the correct plane in the downswing without getting "stuck".You are likely to open the clubface by spinning your shoulders to early never allowing that clubface to square up.Of course it would be helpful to see a faceon camera angle and downswing pictures as well.

"There are Trackman data to confirm this, videos on Youtube, articles, pictures, explanations, all of which you have been presented with in this thread. There is just no way to not comprehend this if you really took your time to try understanding it. All you do is keep posting the same phrases over and over, ignoring the answers time and time again. If I didn't have more belief in people, I'd say you're a troll." If you took the time to do some research and look at other point of views and opinions you might see that im not debating what is happening with the ball flight laws.Rather what is the underlying cause of all these people swinging over the top and slicing.(there are other opinions on this) Maybe not shared on this thread.

Dont repeat I know your stance.... You answered how you would FIX a slicer...GOOD answer (wether we agree or not) Take a compliment! Lifes easier that way. My question (that you dont like) Whats the root cause of a slice(not how do you fix what they have) I say the path is the way it is due to them compensating for a ball that would start right and go right due to overly open clubface. (ie. Root cause is OPEN FACE) Thats the cause of the bad path... You say who cares fix what they have... COOL. want to end this conversation now>?

Cool then we agree on the last statement we can move on... AS you see now the question maybe stupid and not able to answer>? Its one of the hottest topics overthere though. Also whats the ROOT CAUSE of a slice... You thinks its a poor question because you take the opposite stance.. IMO why the path is bad was to compensate for an otherwise ball that would start right and go farther right due to the overly open clubface.

I may also have to apologize for entering in this forum maybe lazy in my explanation.Reason being I had explained my stance and argued it several times in the other forum. Just dont have the time or frankly dont want to do it all over again.The thread in the other forum was whats the root cause of a slice, face or path?... Its pretty mixed as to what people choose..I stated why I believe its face. Theres another forum I asked Will to join that as of now seems to be FACE camp. I believe in a real world lesson theres alot that goes into fixing the motion overall.The fun type of question for debate was ROOT CAUSE of a slice face or path? I know what you believe and what most of this forum believes>! COOL. Im all for listening and learning, SEE I have an open mind and I am actually quite peaceful. Will just came off as the sandtrap HAS the 100 percent truth answer of path..I just simply dont believe that.

As I said before I dont mind debating iacas as he gives reasons for doing things and clearly knows the golfswing... I dont agree with him .. but as he gives his arguments I learn from it.. I m not on here to make people look bad or anything like that.. I think the more we can improve golfers the more golf jobs there will be

So actually never said id fight anyone... However will since i started this on golfwrx... and thats pretty even as face and path.. came to sandtrap at your request took my licks here..

See thats were I believe SOME people get confused you see... If your path is outside and the face is square to the path the ball CANNOT go right.. wether its a good shot or even a good swing the path alone cannot make the ball go right

Iacas... You actually dont answer the question on what can make the ball go right path alone or face alone>? I know your implicating but you wont say it...Look its simple one word answer a.Face b.Path>? And actually the whole reason im in this post is because its not obvious to most.. As see I dont mind having a debate with you because you make arguments for your case and actually know the golf swing...However Many dont and are completely getting confused as they just an open face hits a draw. As for Phil its easy to criticize over the interenet , I promise he doesnt know me or what I have been through and MOST DEFINATELY would not disrespect me in person!

Id love to see a you tube clip of anyone encouraging a slicer to open the face more please>? Or better yet maybe a youtube challenge one 30 minute lesson to a random slicer... You can only fix path.. Ill fix face>?

Just posting on the fly there Phil... Speaking of grammar I had no idea givin' was a word though? Must come natural to you though. As for your little data Im assuming your changing body positions to acheive the changes in path correct? As you ignored the body positions ...because the whole purpose of the thread was PATH or FACE not all the things that go along with that and not what do you "fix"... ALSO your avoiding answering the question of what makes a ball go right path alone or face alone... because your statement is 90% of golfers slice due to path not face ... so why cant you answer the simple fact based question>?

Only going to address 2 things that are relavent here... 1. HOW can a ball slice right with path alone or face alone>? Simple fact based question>? (I belive many disagree as the ball flight laws are confusing to the masses when talking relative to target or path)Not to me or you but many.. 2.Not always the club and face work as one...but if your changing path I almost always see the face change with it ...maybe not 1:1 but if its outside in and open to path ... I have seen the body position that are needed to change the inside approach properly totally change the face to to open.... Now you can work from there and try and get someone to close the face....But with the chronic/slicer /hacker... squaring the face from any path is something they dont do very well... AS they hit more with there shoulders and upper body (spin) If the shoulders stay more closed to start and the legs shift more and the spine tilts away Now they have a chance to square it ,,,,but you had to change a few more things... Question here is face or path not all others..

1."Says you. I've taught people, and I've seen people be taught. Path is the easiest solution." As I have taught people and seen people be taught and watched teachers teach...MANY WORLD class instructors as well... Path is not the easiest solution...Its a solution , you can fix path first...but not the easiest. 2".Many of the habitual slicers I've seen will hit their first draw in ten swings or less. At our recent school in Phoenix we saw - after our first round of individual instruction, approximately 10 balls that even faded the rest of the day. The information we have and the way we convey it to people - I've told this to Dave - often feels like it's a cheat code." COOL. are there any results of this? trackman data you tube vids that show what happened>? Id love to learn from it. 3".No, it's not. Nobody cares "why" they got there - they're there, and that's what you have to work with." If there getting ott to avoid an open face push that would start right and go right then it does matter because you address the cause not the effect. 4."Why do you keep saying that? Of course a slice is caused by a face that's open to the path. That's assumed to be true, so why are you still talking about it?" Simply put then path alone cannot make the ball go right or slice but face can...wether you want to agree with that or not that is FACT..... 5".90%+ of golfers slice with a face that's relatively square to the target. Thus, you fix the swing path to be squarer." and that same 90 percent are ott because there trying to comensate for there open face...you cant just change path and not face(with a slicers body positions) as the whole club is orientated as one.... IF you have path 0...and face 2 degrees open ball go right.....they start swinging ott 5 degrees outside in (moving the whole club orientation) and now the face is 3 degrees closed... so a total of 5 degrees both ways...Now if you change path you will move the face back to open ... As someone said .... Your going to change the path but not the face angle relative to the path>?

iacas> If option 1. were that easy that would certainly be the choice... However its not! You have to change all those awful body positions that get the club outside and face closed to target/open to path. Thats why it becomes very important WHY they get there...as the question states, yes the path is outside in ,,, but its not the root cause,,,, as manzella said they have no other choice but to swing outside in because the face at somepoint was overly open... The debate is not where are they when they slice (outside path, face closed to target) ....its how they got there... you know how they got there...you can fix it... finding the UNDERLYING cause for things is what seperates good instructors from average..(imo) The ball can go left if the path is outside in (if face is closed to path)... right>? we agree there.... so if thats true ..HOW IN THE HECK can a slice be caused by an outside path>? the face MUST be open to that path .... P-E-R-I-O-D... im wrong>? I think not