Joe Mama

Sorry! I thought a previous post had not gone through, so I responded a second time. I apologize for the annoyance and repetition. I'm still trying to get the hang of this. [quote name="David in FL" url="/t/76486/left-thumb-outside/18#post_1040097"] I'm sorry, and I don't want this to sound mean spirited in any way, but you're not really in a position to recommend or advocate anything in terms of the golf swing. You're a relative novice who only recently began to break 100 with any degree of consistency and very seldom breaks 90. [/quote] Maybe this is not the forum for a person like me. I, like so many other high handicappers at my golf range, am very happy to receive casual suggestions from others. "Hey, Fred, have you ever tried this grip? I'm hitting them really straight this morning." If you agree it's all right to make such suggestions on the range, then why do you object to my doing it on this forum? Are only scratch golfers allowed to voice their opinions? If, so, perhaps you should place a notice in the forum telling members to keep their opinions to themselves until they break par. I was of the mistaken impression that it was all right to share on this forum one's experiences with different grips and swings. The worst that can happen is that a member tries it, doesn't like it, and then makes a negative report to the forum, encouraging others not to bother testing it. Alternatively, maybe the swing change really does help the golfer, even if in your opinion it shouldn't. Would that be a bad thing? Can't we let the individual decide whether to listen to a suggestion, or not, and then decide whether testing is warranted, rather than the decision being made by others?

I advocate only that low handicappers who even after years of playing still mis-hit their short irons consider trying my swing. As for taking lessons, I'm happy with my game. I started playing when I was 66 years old, am now 69, and have broken 90. I have taught myself with the aid if YouTube video, watching better players at the range, and reading books. If ever I find myself no longer improving on my own, I may seek the help of an instructor who won't try to rebuild my swing from the ground up. [quote name="dchoye" url="/t/76486/left-thumb-outside#post_1039710"] I watch Tommy Gainey strike his driver 290-300 yards with the left thumb wrap around the the handle like you describe standing behind him at a driving range I seen every type of grip. If it works for you fine. don't assume its only for certain type of player and for certain clubs[/quote] The Thumb Out grip can work with most clubs and for most players, in my opinion. However, my extreme right grips, together with the ball back, right foot back, inside out, feel-like-I'm-swinging-square-to-the-arc stance and swing is NOT for most players. Better players should stay away from it, but higher handicappers should at least try it.

I agree that many, if not most, high handicappers might not be able to make this swing work for them. I only advocate that golfers who are willing to try something new just give my swing (not just the thumb out, but the entire setup and swing I described earlier) a try. If it doesn't work, it's no great loss. If it works as well for them as it does for me, they will be overjoyed. I've been playing not quite three years, and am VERY happy with my game. Most golfers who start playing at age 66--as did--don't break 100 after three years, I think. I occasionally break 90. I took three 30-minute lessons, but the guy was all talk, no show. I get MUCH more by watching YouTube videos in which the instructor talks AND shows. People may say that I needed more than 1.5 hours to see results, but nobody I know who's taken dozens of lesson can break 90, and they've all been playing seven, ten, thirty years. The success--such as it is--that I've had happened because of Internet forums and YouTube videos, and several books by the likes of Ernie Els, Tom Watson, and others, and especially, I believe, from my willingness to think outside the box. [quote name="dchoye" url="/t/76486/left-thumb-outside#post_1039710"] I watch Tommy Gainey strike his driver 290-300 yards with the left thumb wrap around the the handle like you describe standing behind him at a driving range I seen every type of grip. If it works for you fine. don't assume its only for certain type of player and for certain clubs[/quote] I was referring to my stance, ball position, extreme rightward grips, and trying to feel square to the swing arc, not to the thumb out placement. I use thumb out for all clubs.

I don't use a completely different grip for each of the clubs, of course. I use one grip (the one I'm describing) for wedges and short irons, and a different grip for woods, hybrids, and driver. Two different grips. For the shorter clubs, the ball is right of center and four knuckles show; for the longer clubs, the ball is left of center, and fewer knuckles show. The more knuckles that show, the greater is the tendency for the face to close before impact, so with the longer-arc swings with the long clubs, fewer knuckles are necessary. I agree that it would be better if one could develop a single grip and stance that works well for all clubs. It would be great if I could find a grip and stance that allows me to efficiently cause a descending nine iron blow down into the ball, while also allowing me to equally efficiently make an ascending strike with the driver. Maybe lots of good players can do this, I don't know, but so far, I have been unable to do it. I wish to emphasize that I do NOT advocate this grip or swing to anyone who wants to shoot in the mid-eighties or below, because while greater impact consistency is fostered, swing speed is sacrificed. I recommend my grip and swing mainly to those occasional golfers whose primary goal is not to embarrass themselves on the course, to golfers who just wants not to shank the short iron into the woods. My grip and swing style is a bandaid that works extremely well for me. It is a compensation for unrecognized or uncorrectable swing flaws. But, don't all golfers compensate?

Here's another uncommon grip: Moe Norman is regarded as one of the greatest ball strikers ever: his hands are rotated extremely clockwise, similar to mine.

If there are no hackers in this forum, I'm wasting everyone's time. :doh:

I want to emphasize, again, that the grip and swing I'm describing is NOT for the good player--a player who almost always strikes the ball flush, and can hit the nine iron 150 yards or more, and who has a handicap of less than 10. It is for the hacker, the person who struggles to break 100. Remember, the grip and swing is only for wedges and short irons.

I will be out of town until Friday, without my clubs, but when I return I will consider making a video of the swing, but only if at least one forum reader in the meanwhile shows enough interest in this discussion to try the swing and post his opinion to the forum. It should be easier for reader to reproduce my swing than it is for me to video it, unless my description of the grip and swing (in an earlier post) is unclear. If so, ask me a question about it and I will attempt to make my explanation clearer.

I assume you're referring to the four knuckle aspect of the grip, not to Sarezen's thumb out. Necessity was the mother of my invention. I've always had trouble bringing the clubface square to the target line at impact. The grip I use allows me to keep the face square to the swing arc longer going back, and feels like (but probably is not) it's square to the arc up almost to the top (a 225 degree arc). The grip also allows me to feel like I am bringing the club face down square to the arc. When it feels square on the way up and down--whether it really is square or not doesn't matter, the face IS square to the ball at impact. If my hands are not massively rotated right at setup, I am not able to feel like the face is square to the arc during the entire swing, and, as a consequence, I don't strike the ball square. Hands in the neutral position, for example, at setup, make it impossible to take the face back square to the arc for more than about 30 degrees. Having the square to the swing feeling for as much of the swing as possible means--to me--that the amount of forearm roll is minimized, which I think fosters a better ball strike. Many will disagree. I doubt that this is a grip or swing that good players should try because release happens less fluidly than with the more orthodox grip, and that translates to lower clubhead speed. But, for those higher handicap players who struggle just to make a decent contact with the ball, and who care less about speed than they do about not shanking, hooking, or slicing the ball, it may be a viable option. I love the swing, but it's only good for wedges and short irons.

I should have explained that I only use this grip with my wedges and short irons. My scores typically are between 86 and 94.

Note: the right hand must be rotated just as far clockwise as the left hand, otherwise there will be a strong tendency of the wrists to catastrophically rotate counter-clockwise, resulting in a pull of the ball.

I've been placing my left thumb underneath the right hand heel pad, similar to Gene Sarezen's grip. I don't interlace or overlap any fingers, however. All my fingers touch the shaft. Has anyone on this forum tried it? What works well for me is to show four knuckles of the left hand at setup, a square stance with right foot pulled back two inches, a straight (not board stiff) left-arm driven one piece backswing along the 10:00-4:00 o'clock direction, and a down swing along the same direction. The ball is located about two inches to the right of center stance.

I meant to write, "your playing partners will ask you back," not "will in its back." I will try to proof read more carefully in the future.

I meant "forgiving," not "forging." Darn auto spell check and correct.

Replace your 3-6 irons with hybrids. They are more forging than irons.

Don't take lessons. Don't buy new clubs, yet. Buy a 5 x 5 hitting mat ($400, the cost of a couple of new clubs) and an 8 x 10 net for your garage. Buy a five dozen 40-cent balls. Watch videos online that you found by googling topics such as golf grip, stance, backswing, whatever. Take what you learn to the garage or driving range. Go to a golf course that offers an all you can hit range plan. At any point while you're learning, go to an 18 hole course to play; take the cheap balls with you. Rent a cart, because it will take up to much time to travel to all your mis-hit balls if you walk, and your playing partners will be annoyed. Tell your playing partners you plan not to search for balls that travel into problems areas, that you will drop one nearby on the fairway, and that you will pick up your ball whenever your stroke count on any hole reaches eight. This way, you will never have to be shamed by delaying the game, and your playing partners will in its you back.. Don't take lessons. Most instructors just talk, rather than show. You can learn most of what you need by teaching yourself with the aid of Google, and by watching better players at the driving range.

If the condition for posting is that I post a video, I suppose I could make a video, but as I've already said, I tried, and no decent video resulted. Cynics will feel free to suppose that I made a video and to my great surprise, saw my forearms rotating, and don't dare post it , lest I be ridiculed. I will not post in the future, but will continue to try to keep my forearms from rotating. Even if I really am falling short of a perfect square swing, the attempt at it has improved my ball-striking. And, isn't that really what this forum is about, improving each individual's swing?

I made several attempts today to make an iPhone video of my swing, but none of the takes would clearly reveal anything of relevance to our discussion. Ironically, one great benefit was derived from my attempts: my ball-striking was better than ever, because of the extra attention I paid to making sure I didn't rotate my forearms in order to provide solid evidence of my claims to forum readers. I now have greater confidence in the validity of the square to the arc swing than ever before. Note: I absolutely do NOT think good players should try the square swing, because release is much less fluid than with the orthodox swing. However, for higher handicappers who cannot make consistently decent ball strikes, and for whom club head speed is less important than simply being able to hit the ball square most of the time, I recommend the square swing. By the way, my scores are usually between 90 and 94.

Iacas's says that "grip strength is irrelevant," but how could that be true? Hands rotated on the grip too far counter-clockwise at setup promotes forearm roll on the backswing, while very far clockwise inhibits roll. The forearms start off rolled counter-clockwise in the former case, and rolled clockwise in the latter. Am I wrong? My grip has the hands at setup very far clockwise relative to neutral, causing my forearms to be pre-rolled clockwise; this pre-roll is what allows me to take my club face back 225 degrees square to the arc without additional roll.

I don't claim that seeing four knuckles necessarily leads to no forearm rotation. Sure, golfers can show four knuckles and have any manner of backswing. What I said was that there is no hope of my keeping square along all of the 225 degree arc if I don't show all four knuckles. This requirement, along with the proper placement of my right hand, and the required manner of takeaway, allows my to keep square to the arc.

Here is a bad photo of my left hand at setup: Note: I have been asked to submit a video of my swing. It is easy to ask, but not so easy to comply. I don't have the skill of a Golf Channel videographer, so I doubt that I could efficiently capture the critically relevant portions of the swing in order to make my argument believable. Indeed, a recent video posted and analyzed by another poster more talented than I was not at all unambiguous, in my opinion. Any swing would have to simultaneously filmed by two or three cameras in order to make clearer the actual angles involved, and even then interpretations would be subjective.

I have viewed the video. However, I am unable to judge from the video whether your left hand grip is two, three, or four knuckles.[quote name="mvmac" url="/t/44429/square-to-the-arc-from-roy/90#post_1037611"] @Joe Mama have you seen this video? Do you see any good players that swing like this? [/quote] The video and added graphics is better than I could create, but in my opinion is nevertheless inconclusive. I hope you will not rush to attribute my reluctance to accept your argument to stupidity or stubbornness. I believe more information needs to be provided about the setup. For example, I could not tell how many left knuckles are showing on the left hand of the golfer at setup. The number is absolutely vital. With only three knuckles showing on my left hand, for example, I can take the face back square only about 90 degrees; if only one knuckle, it's only 30 degrees. In order for me to take it back the 225 degrees I have been talking about, I have to have all four knuckles--and MORE--showing. (If I had a fifth knuckle, it would show.). Short of that, I cannot keep the face square along all of the 225 degree arc. So, my question is this: how many knuckles at setup are showing on the left hand of the golfer in the video? If it's fewer than four plus, then it's no surprise to me that the forearms will definitely rotate (which means that , of course, the face becomes no longer square to the arc). How many knuckles?

In regard to my suggestion that golfers try to keep their clubface square to the swing arc for as long as is comfortable, Iacas remarked, "It's not really something worth seeking. If someone wants to keep their clubface square to the arc until the shaft is horizontal in the backswing....that's fine. Keeping it "square to the arc" any longer than that is a Very Bad Thing™." With a four-knuckle left hand on my irons and left thumb at three o'clock I am able to swing back at least 225 degrees (zero at setup, 90 degrees horizontal, 180 degrees vertical, plus at least 45 degrees more, all the while the clubface is square to the swing arc, without any rolling of the forearms. You may say that I just think the face is square. To this I can only say to forum readers, try it yourself, then decide if I'm imagining it. In my opinion, virtually every grip style, and every manner of takeaway, is a "very bad thing" for certain golfers, but a good thing for others. Iacas's game no doubt would be ruined if he attempted the type of backswing we've been talking about in this forum, but others with a much higher handicap might lower their scores. I like this swing because it has fewer moving parts. When I attempt the orthodox cock and roll backswing with the subsequent supination/pronation swing through, I sometimes make a superb ball strike, but too often I mis-hit the ball because of poor timing. Very bad things happen less often with my square swing. Note: If I execute the orthodox swing correctly, the release occurs more naturally--more fluidly, than with the square swing, with the former consequently providing greater club head speed. The trade-off for me, then, is greater reliability at the expense of speed. For me, it's been worth it. I believe some readers in this forum might find that this swing for them is indeed worth seeking.

That is the exact swing I am talking about. The challenge is to cope with the tendency of the forearms to roll counter-clockwise too much, too soon, which pulls the ball left. Pulling the right foot back a bit helps.

My main reason for posting is to encourage readers to try to keep the club face square to the arc for as long as is comfortable for them to see if their ball-striking improves. .