Curt

I hear you there! The other Cleveland that was in the running -- I don't remember the model number -- was also a high-bounce model with a sole similar to that on the CBX, the "v-sole". Could have gone either Cleveland, but the CBX were just easier to hit, so why not? The the way it shook out in my bag with the Rogue PW and AW then the CBXs ... with the same shafts, gapping works well we Rogue PW 44, AW 49, CBX 54, CBX 58. Ultimately, fitter's case for the CBX w matching shafts, as opposed to the SW and GW from the Rogue which we did consider, is the versatility of the CBX sole plus a little extra spin from the Cleveland Rotex face. Though there was also a case to be made for just going Rogue all the way because those wedges are good, too, Versatility and spin, combined with CBX ease of use for me, put the CBX in the bag instead of the Rogues on down through, with the emphasis on CBX Versatility putting them as the winners.

Thanks dennyjones... and I too had an amazing experience at Club Champion, and here's my full report: Club Champion Full-Bag Fitting experience:An update... I got a 50% off deal on a full bag fitting at Club Champion, so I went for it because I STILL had that itching sensation in the back of my head that maybe just maybe the Golf Galaxy fitting wasn't thorough enough on the irons and GG didn't do any formal fitting for me for putter, wedges, hybrids/woods, nor driver. And... The results at Club Champion were enlightening, to say the least. CAVEAT EMPTOR >> Fitting was For Me.Here's what happened, full bag fitting, during the Club Champion fitting that took three and a half hours: we tested on Trackman Rogue X, Rogue, Ping g700, and Titlest AP1-718 in irons, with five different shaft combinations (including the Recoil 460 stiff that I had in one of the Rogue X that I already bought) in both stiff and regular... and hands down on Trackman >> the regular Rogue with a Fuji VistaPro 70 in Regular flex won For Me, on every single measure... it frankly blew away the RogueX in Recoil 460 F4-stiff that Galaxy had put me in...(that the Rogue beat out the RogueX for me was surprising to me, but the data was blatantly obvious, and a relief in a way. One thing Champion and Galaxy DID agree on: the Callaways beat out the Ping g700, for me, which was another surprise and another relief because the Callys are less expensive and I've played Callaways for the past five years, so at least I was on the right track with my brand) Best fit for wedges: We tested the Cally Rogue, Cally MD, Titlests, and two Clevelands. Conclusion: Go down through PW and AW in the regular Rogue, then Cleveland CBX 54 and 58 ultimately fitted with the Same Fuji Shafts as the rest of the irons. The CBX conclusion was not surprising to me and was easy for me to accept and settle. Although I do love the SmartSole 58 that I've been using, the CBX is the better fit. I'll relegate SmartSole to my guest bag. Likewise similar in thoroughness, just to finish the Club Champion experience, was the testing for hybrids and hybrids vs. fairway woods, and for driver: Conclusion: Callaway Rogue hybrids, Mitsubishi C6 regular flex shaft, definitely a 4 hy with a 4 and 3 combo option. Hybrids clearly better for me than fairway woods (again, I have to stress the thoroughness of all the testing: we tried a bunch of combos, various hybrids, woods, hybrid-irons from various brands > this is what sets Club Champion apart). That the hybrids beat out fairway woods, For Me, and that the Rogue beat out multiple other brands, was not surprising to me, but again is allowing me now to SETTLE DOWN MY MIND and eliminate "club chatter". What was surprising was that not only did I get *** better distance, I also got better consistency and tighter dispersion with Regular flex *** instead of the stiff that I have been playing... this again is actually another relief, because at 56 years old I'm not getting any younger and I want to not only preserve my joints but also increase the longevity of my club selection so I don't have to go through all this again for another five or eight years; these are clubs that I can play now AND "age into them" gracefully. Conclusion: Driver: again, the Rogue standard (not the draw model) beat out all comers... BUT, instead of the 10.5 in stiff that I've been playing, champion was Rogue 13.5 in Regular flex Accra FX 2.0-250m3 shaft.Conclusion: Putter: my own current gamer the Odyssey White Hot Pro #1 in 34" standard pistol grip w full shaft offset is actually pretty close... and I don't need to be in a rush, so that's another relief. On my data, I need a heel-shafted "toe weighted" (instead of face balance) putter at 33.5" ideally a mallet with a half-shaft offset and a midsize standard grip (as opposed to something like a fat Superstroke). We tested my Odyssey for baseline data, which was already pretty good match, good enough for gaming... but then also tested new Ping, Bertonelli, Scotty Cameron, and another Odyssey one of the new fang models...For Me, ultimate Putter Winner: the less-expensive Ping Sigma 2 Anar Stealth black putter, 33.5", midsize pistol grip. Another beautiful thing about the Ping Sigma is that the length is actually adjustable in 1/2-inch increments, with a simple tool. Another relief: new Ping Sigma 2 is $200, a lot cheaper than Berts and Camerons. Think about it: I spent $175 (half-price special) on the Club Champion fitting, but I'd save MORE than that just by going w Ping vs. Cameron putter.Even Grips are gauged: again, For Me, it was between the Golf Pride cp2 and the Superstroke Cross-Comfort, in Midsize. And more reliefs: both those grips are relatively durable and versatile for various playing conditions, AND I've already been playing midsize grips so I won't have to adjust for that...Finally, I checked w my Club Champion fitter to see if was OK that I bought the clubs stock like off of Callaway Pre-owned, for example, or other sites, and then bring them in piecemeal to CC for the customizations as I can afford it, to save money... and the answer is YES, though then CC won't warranty the clubheads. He suggested to NOT buy off ebay because of danger of counterfeit clubs, but Callaway Preowned certified clubs would be fine. So I can collect up my Rogues as they come up, in regular flex shafts, and at bargain prices, and game them and gradually over the next half year or so get 'em reshafted and pured by CC.So, that's my story... and I'm sticking to it. All settled.

Wow, hey I appreciate everybody's thoughts! Thank you, McDivot et al. If the point of playing golf was to make it harder, then pros and everyone else would play a limited number of old-school Harry Vardon or at best Bobby Jones clubs off the shelf with no customizations allowed, yeah right... And to underscore the points of boogieliscious and BigUnit... I am playing for fun, plus "dedicated long term commitment" is fine and on the table but many hours of range time is hard to come by, timewise, when like me and only start really playing more than twice a year until once you're over 50 and then you're 56 years old working overtime peak career phase of life with another four or five years left until you retire... maybe I get to practice once or twice a week and play once a week and sometimes only nine holes at that. I'll never be a threat to somebody who started young and dedicated years to being an excellent near-scratch golfer, but I'm confident I can learn to play a decent game and have fun doing so, with the right equipment For Me. Plus, there's no such thing as a "perfect swing, period" - sure, Hogan is a model, yes, and he practiced full-time hours each day but Hagen looked "like a duck" and smooth Sam Snead's swing is a lot different than the smash and gouge pros of today (who will not be healthy when they're old if they keep punishing their bodies the way they do, btw...). So, given that, yes I am going to play GI or SGi with lightweight but stiff graphite shafts (with the added benefit of not tearing up my joints) while I enjoy the game and I take further instruction and practice to do what I can to improve my swing, which isn't too bad anyway, and play as time allows. I'm not going to be shamed out of GI clubs; in fact I take take pride in my enjoyment of them. I'm just trying to figure out a simple system upon which to build my game up over time as I age so that I can at least play a respectable game - 14 handicap is my goal, and that's supposedly in the top 20-25% in the world of golfers according to the research I've done, good enough for me for fun and self-respect, and if I get past that it's all gravy - WALKING the course amongst peers and enjoy a sport hopefully into my older age 70s and 80s years. One of the things that holds back my improvement, other than time limitations, is "mental chatter" about equipment, hence my long posts, sorry about that, and my efforts to settle the question in a way that will last me for five or ten years... THEREFORE, I'm just trying to figure out the bottom of my bag and be done with it. I still have my formal wedges fitting next week, but as an update: >> just yesterday my irons fitter assured me that actually I am not crazy to consider using the actual set wedges from the Rogue X, with my Cleveland 58 SmartSole as the final kicker on the bottom... given my situation and goals. Keep it simple, he advised, which as an English and Philosophy professor I have enough trouble with, and settle out my golf equipment "chatter" so I can focus on just playing and over time grooving something proximal to my own long-term healthy repeatable swing...

Club Champion in Santa Monica, CA. Next Friday (Nov. 30, 2018).

I know, I know... it's an age-old question and there have been many Wedges discussions priorly, but it seems to me stock clubs are getting really good, if fit w proper shaft, so here's what I'm currently going through... >> I have always hit my Callaway stock X-Hot A-wedge high (49 degree, I believe, but maybe 50), straight, and "drop and stop" onto the green far better than I've hit any specialty wedge that I've found and tried so far from about 100 yards. I have never had a problem with it stopping on the green with a full shot. The closest thing I've found to it, performance wise, is the Cleveland CBX. Now I've been fitted into Rogue-X irons with a light stiff Recoil graphite shaft... excellent performance with the light stiff Recoil 460, which surprised me (because I'm strong lifting weights forty years and athletic...) For Me, on all observable measurable data, including Spin, from top of bag on down... although we didn't formally "fit" the wedges. I was also surprised about the Rogue X, because I went in thinking the Ping g700 would win out... Now, it's a strong-lofted set, yeah yeah but it really works For Me... the PW is 41, then a AW at 46, a GW at 51, and an SW at 55... I don't have them yet, haven't bought them yet, and I have a wedge and woods fitting coming up next week. That said, my thoughts are leaning towards the A 46 and the G 51, and possibly even the SW 55 in the Rogue X (with the correct shafts, all the other irons were spinning great)... then just have my Cleveland Smart Sole 58 wedge for sand and little pops over traps and such... (and maybe even a Smart Sole chipper!!! hey, my dad is 78 years old, shoots under his age, still plays and has played for decades tournament golf, and has had an old wide-flanged Hogan 60 degree and an old Wilson or TopFlight chipper, then the rest of his set, after a two-decades or more run of winning tourneys with the same old set of Titlest irons, is now Stock Cally Apex 14 though he still carries the decades-old Titlest 3-iron for run shots, no hybrids... he says "I'd rather have my chipper than another wedge".. on the other hand, the Rogue X sole is wide, so maybe I can just dial in the 8-iron as my chipper). I'm just thinking that since I'm not even close to as good as my dad, and do not have the time nor the burning desire to approach a 5 handicap, all I want to be happy in my golf life is to shoot around 85 or 86, and based on my experience with the X-Hot AW (compared to various iterations of Mack Daddys 2. 3. 4, Clevelands in CBX and others, and yes Titlests).. for me, I could totally see advantages to keeping same shaft and forgiving heads right on down to low in the new Rogue X wedges... look, feel, weight, forgiveness, gaps, etc., I don't need to bend it like Beckham to get it on the center of the green, because if I need to I can do a low run-up shot to get under obstacles instead of up and around them if needed. I dunno. I think I need to go down to at least the 51 GW in the Rogue X, and maybe a Cleveland CBX 54 or 56 instead of the stock Rogue X SW 55, plus my beloved Smart Sole 58... BUT I'll know better in a week after I "finish" my fitting at Club Champion, with The Wedges Question. What are your thoughts? Thanks.

I have always hit my Callaway stock X-Hot A-wedge high (49 degree, I believe, but maybe 50), straight, and "drop and stop" onto the green far better than I've hit any specialty wedge that I've found and tried so far from about 100 yards. I have never had a problem with it stopping on the green with a full shot. The closest thing I've found to it, performance wise, is the Cleveland CBX. Now I've been fitted into Rogue-X irons with a light stiff Recoil graphite shaft... excellent performance with the light stiff Recoil 460, which surprised me (because I'm strong lifting weights forty years and athletic...) For Me, on all observable measurable data, including Spin, from top of bag on down... although we didn't formally "fit" the wedges. Now, it's a strong-lofted set, yeah yeah but it really works For Me... the PW is 41, then a AW at 46, a GW at 51, and an SW at 55... I don't have them yet, haven't bought them yet, and I have a wedge and woods fitting coming up next week. That said, my thoughts are leaning towards the A 46 and the G 51, and possibly even the SW 55 in the Rogue X (with the correct shafts, all the other irons were spinning great)... then just have my Cleveland Smart Sole 58 wedge for sand and little pops over traps and such... (and maybe even a Smart Sole chipper!!! hey, my dad is 78 years old, shoots under his age, still plays and has played for decades tournament golf, and has had an old wide-flanged Hogan 60 degree and an old Wilson or TopFlight chipper, then the rest of his set, after a two-decades or more run of winning tourneys with the same old set of Titlest irons, is now Stock Cally Apex 14 though he still carries the decades-old Titlest 3-iron for run shots, no hybrids... he says "I'd rather have my chipper than another wedge".. on the other hand, the Rogue X sole is wide, so maybe I can just dial in the 8-iron as my chipper). I'm just thinking that since I'm not even close to as good as my dad, and do not have the time nor the burning desire to approach a 5 handicap, all I want to be happy in my golf life is to shoot around 85 or 86, and based on my experience with the X-Hot AW (compared to various iterations of Mack Daddys 2. 3. 4, Clevelands in CBX and others, and yes Titlests).. for me, I could totally see advantages to keeping same shaft and forgiving heads right on down to low in the new Rogue X wedges... look, feel, weight, forgiveness, gaps, etc., I don't need to bend it like Beckham to get it on the center of the green, because if I need to I can do a low run-up shot to get under obstacles instead of up and around them if needed. I dunno. I think I need to go down to at least the 51 GW in the Rogue X, and maybe a Cleveland CBX 54 or 56 instead of the stock Rogue X SW 55, plus my beloved Smart Sole 58... BUT I'll know better in a week after I "finish" my fitting at Club Champion, with The Wedges Question. P.S. since this thread is old, but the discussion is still so relevant, I'm going to post the above here and start a new discussion "copy and paste" too, under "The Wedges Qestion and Rogue X"... probably put it in GolfWRX discussion, too, to check out and compare responses, for fun. Thanks for your patience if you encounter my above thoughts again in other posts.

Yeah, I know, but I'm new to SandTrap, and plus this issue keeps coming up over and over again even quite recently. I just did a search on the issue and this old thread came up, and I've had some long thoughts about it so I posted.

I believe that the researchable measurable reality is that MOST golfers play BETTER with GIs and SGIs, once they try them out for a while... It used to be the case that pros (who are NOT practical models for most players to emulate, anyway, given their extreme gifts and massively focused dedication and TIME investment in this funny little game) didn't play hybrids, either, and didn't play graphite shafts in irons; even that is changing, however. Does that mean that you and I shouldn't play hybrids or graphite shafts? Play what you have the most fun with, because unless you are a pro or pro wannabe, then that's the name of the golf game. If you're on a zen guru quest to master the most difficult clubs you can come up with, well then that's fine but then you ought only be advising yourself and MAYBE other esoteric zen guru questers; however, why would you advise anybody until you actually ARE a zen guru master of the blade? And then, real zen guru masters only advise other serious seekers of such mastery. For most players, even players in the top 25% of the world, which means anybody under about 14 handicap ( most experts agree that the "average" golfer shoots 100+, probably more like 105+ measured honestly... do your research; I have.), the goal of the game is shoot lower scores while having more fun -- for MOST people, that means playing clubs designed to be easier to hit, though I know "easier" is SOMEWHAT subjective but it is mainly measurable objectively.

If everything you say is true, then NOBODY should be playing SGIs, with all those disadvantages framed up like that... The problem with your theory is that MOST golfers play BETTER with GIs and SGIs, once they try them out for a while... It used to be the case that pros (who are NOT practical models for most players to emulate, anyway, given their extreme gifts and massively focused dedication and TIME investment in this funny little game) didn't play hybrids, either, and didn't play graphite shafts, for most of the above "reasons" you stated; even that is changing, however. Does that mean that you and I shouldn't play hybrids or graphite shafts?