Tom

if you look at iacas' response to my response he dissects, condescends, builds sarcasm into his statements, etc. i don't have any time for his bologna. apparently i came late to the party and didn't realize this website's intent. i thought the website "sandtrap.com", that i found because of some good equip reviews, etc., was a golf discussion open to anyone pure and simple. i thought because i was a + hndcp that i would be helping others but didn't realize the site was monitored by a self proclaimed golf czar in iacass. the site should be called "stack-n-tilt.com." i'll just take a vacation from this site and when/if i come back i most assuredly won't be posting anything. i'm off. insert vacuous sound here. bye -

first - IACAS: i don't come around very often. but, when i have you have sought me out it seems to poke holes in whatever i may have to say. iacas has done this every time, literally. i understand he is a proprietor of this website. i understand he is an instructor, profits from his advice, derives clients from this website and is (was?) a proponent of stack and tilt. it seems if he is no longer a proponent of s&t; exclusively, it would be because s&t; as a stand alone swing method has really been debunked. but in past, he has professed it as "the" swing. over the past two years or so i've seen where he has massaged s&t; to be the swing methodology employed by ben hogan and other legends, but they didn't know it was stack and tilt. i have called him out on that, and some others agreed with me that he (and this site) is a bit overt on the s&t; chatter. has this changed? i don't know. but because of this i don't participate much in discussions. in fact i mostly go around the two other prominent golf discussion weebsites. moreover, i haven't visited this website or this specific thread since i started it whenever that was. then the other day i came back and saw where he's just laying into me, posting still pictures (where did he even get those?), drawing lines, saying all sorts of blather that is just silly. saying "hips 42 degress open" "back leg straight" or whatever - basically tearing me a new one. i'm thinking the guy doesn't even know me!!! he's got to be a hack!!! why? he hasn't asked me anything... he's never PM'd me to clarify or anything, yet he's an authority on my swing? WHAT? he doesn't know my swing, my game, etc., yet here he is just killing me. i mean, yeah - come on! as to the "straightening" of the right leg... whatever! yeah - come on... bubba watson? see below. can his leg straighten any more? everyone knows why you WOULD want to straighten your back leg. it maximizes the amount of rearward hip rotation which also maximizes the amount he is able to turn behind the ball. is this for everyone? it could be... does it matter? i don't think so. why would anyone profess not to straighten the rear leg? a straightening rear leg could cause your upper body to tilt toward the target if you don't have a sufficient upper body spine angle (away from target). but, watch the vid. after bubba gets his turn he "squats" a bit and rotates his hips thru just about more than anyone. was bubba's dad saying to him "uh son, you can't do that!!" no... his dad knew his game - saw his scorecard(s), saw he could do anything with the golf ball, etc., as to the original intent of the post "hands ahead" - i consider myself a "pro flipper." watch lee westwood. his left wrist breaks down a touch and his left elbow folds at or shortly after impact. i am more or less a "lee westwood" type of impact person. because of this, the one thing i have to work on is forward shaft lean to ensure that i have enough. so, i posted what i like to work on to get my hands ahead. then come back and the dude has lit a fire under my arse... yeah - come on! iacas, have anything to say about these?: here's a swing of mine from Dec 6 2011 and here's a swing of mine from Oct 11, 2011 those two days i was working on something very specific, and quite different. and, because i am a "work in progress" anyone can see there's a difference in my swing from october to december. in fact, here in mid-january i would guess i am a bit diffferent now than then. so, and in summary, when someone with which i have a history lights into me (yet again) for the purpose of selling lessons and or placing themselves higher on the golfing pedestal, etc., i reserve the right to fire back. and again, they don't know me (my swing, my game, etc.,) from a hole in the ground. cheers

body { font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; background: #FBF9EC; } table { text-align:left;} p { margin-left:0px; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;} td { font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; width: 18px; } Iacass, Can you handle that? Course: Bears Best, Suwanee, Ga Start Time: 1/9/2012, 10:39 AM Duration: 3:30 Weather: 56℉, Clear, Humidity: 93%, Wind: S at 5 mph Generated By: Easy Scorecard Pro HOLE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT AVG HCP Back (72.5/140) 439 358 167 364 428 169 586 422 572 3505 362 167 536 442 574 375 190 439 484 3569 7074 Stroke Index 3 13 15 17 1 9 11 5 7 12 4 16 6 8 18 14 10 2 PAR 4 4 3 4 4 3 5 4 5 36 4 3 5 4 5 4 3 4 4 36 72 Tom 4 3 3 3 4 3 4 4 5 33 3 2 4 4 5 3 3 5 4 33 66 3.67 +2.2 66 Stableford 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT AVG HCP Tom 2 4 2 4 2 2 4 2 2 24 4 4 4 2 2 4 2 1 2 25 49 2.72 +2.2 PUTT 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT AVG Tom 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 2 13 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 2 2 13 26 1.44 FWY HIT 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT % Tom X X X X X 5 X X X X X X X 7 12 85.71 G.I.R. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT % Tom X X X X X X X 7 X X X X X X X 7 14 77.78 Scrambling 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT % Tom X X 2 X 1 3 75.00 SAND SHOTS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT AVG Tom 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.00 Eagle Birdie Bogey Double Bogey Triple Bogey or more GIR Putt Average: Tom: 1.50 Handicap Analysis: Tom: Using manual handicap index of +2.2.

iacas, you're a hacker aren't you? a complete chopper. you're a hater too... you're a stack and tilt teacher and you can't handle someone (like me) with a better game/swing than you. you play golf swing (S&T;); i play golf. i'll play you anytime for cash (big cash), or reputation. bring it!! bash all you want - you're a chopper. i saw that drill you posted where you were acting as if you were hitting "down hill" to show how to get your hands ahead. you don't know what you're doing. and you give lessons? to hackers no doubt... bring it chopper.

unless you haven't read my text above, earlier in this thread, please do. Alright, the KBS C-Taper shafts are very nice. I must say they are my favorites as of now.

Went to a master club fitter last week to look ONLY at iron shafts and was concerned only with distance control, shot accuracy/dispersion, ball on club face consistency. All fittings done outdoors, with naked eye AND a fully operational Trackman with great targets. There was a little wind, temperature was hovering in upper 50's and it was relatively humid/overcast. I live in Atlanta area. I made conscious effort to put same exact swing on every shot. After seeing me swing, measuring speed, etc., we had a specific idea of what to do. In a 6-iron configuration (Mizuno MP 58) that, for loft and lie, exactly matched my own 6-iron (Mizuno MP 62 - had them measure lie on my own iron, then had them bend the fitter's club to match), the fitter took six (6) shafts out in his fitting cart in addition to my 6-iron. My 6-iron is Project X 6.5 with standard grip size +5 wraps, which makes it 1/64 larger than a mid-size. Each club was struck exactly three (3) times on a matt (not turf). I'm not going to include the shafts that didn't produce good results, rather just focus on the shafts that provided good results. Face contact My club (PX 6.5) was dead on center every time. KBS C-Taper S was dead on center every time. DG X100 was dead on center every time. Distance control - 95mph swing, 205yds carry My club (PX 6.5) was +/- 10yds. KBS C-Taper S was +/- 10yds. DG X100 was was +/- 5yds. Shot dispersion My club (PX 6.5) was +/- 15yds. KBS C-Taper S was +/- 10yds. DG X100 was +/- 5yds or even less. Note: Every shot off the matt produced a draw curvature, which is to be expected as my stock swing (confirmed by trackman) is in to out on average 2°. At conclusion of fitting, I took my own club AND the x100 out and onto the turf. Shots with my club were providing standard dispersion characteristics of between 6-10yds of target. The x100's dispersion was noticeably straighter, although with a draw of 10yds or so. I did NOT take the KBS C Taper onto the turf. Conclusion: Looking at the Trackman's output (top line, trajectory, dispersion, etc.) it was 110% clear that the stiffer the shaft, the tighter the dispersion, more consistent the distance and more consistent face contact. The fitter and I concluded I should look only at x100, Project X 7.0 or KBS C-Taper S+ or X flex. They did not have the PX 7 or KBS S+ or X. He also recommended I play the same shaft in my three wedges. In a set of R9 TP "B" irons I no longer play, are X100 Tour Issue shafts. I also stopped on way home and bought three 37" X100 shafts for my wedges. I pulled the Project X 6.5s out of my MP62s; pulled the X100s out of the RP TP "B"s. I cleaned, prepped then installed the X100s into my MP62s, and wedges. I have played the X100s for four rounds. I am much tighter in dispersion, shots are lower, distance is consistent AND (big caveat here) in two consecutive days I had two hole out eagles. 1 @ 132yds, 1 @ 151yds. So, why am I posting about KBS? Well, the X100s are harsh when the shaft is not fully loaded. Also, I have lost 5yds of distance on my wedge full shots (51, 57). The KBS shafts during the fitting were absolutely sweet to hit. So, I bought a new set of Mizuno MP 68s with KBS C-Taper S+. I got them yesterday and am going out to play today. More feedback soon.

precisely why people who doubt are average golfers, and people like me are plus handicappers. keep doing what you're doing... or try something like stack and tilt... tee hee hee

There's no magic. It is training that makes your hands get ahead of the clubhead at impact and THAT (hands ahead) is the #1 key to consistent shot making, and consistent scores. To get your hands ahead #1, you must have great hip rotation!!! The average tour pro's hips are 42 degrees open at impact. The average amateur golfer's hips are about 10 degrees open. To get your hands ahead #2, you must have great hip rotation!!! The average tour pro's hips are 42 degrees open at impact. The average amateur golfer's hips are about 10 degrees open. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Drill 1: Get an impact bag. Put it where your ball would be ordinarily. Address the ball. IMPORTANT: Set your right knee for a golf swing and make 110% sure it is bent at address and stays bent all the way to the top!!! DO NOT LET IT STRAIGHTEN!!! Envision that someone has a rope tied to your left front pocket (right handed golfer) Start your thru swing and as you start down, imagine that someone pulls hard on that rope and it spins your hips open. Simultaneously, as your hips spin open you POST UP on a firm left side. If you do not do this you will slide forward and you'll look like any other hacker and your hopes of getting your hands ahead will be dashed. Hit the impact bag at 50% your normal hitting force. ----------------------- Drill 2: Get a swim noodle Put it four feet in front of your ball (i use a microphone stand, and stick the noodle on the end). Address the ball. IMPORTANT: Set your right knee for a golf swing and make 110% sure it is bent at address and stays bent all the way to the top!!! DO NOT LET IT STRAIGHTEN!!! Envision that someone has a rope tied to your left front pocket (right handed golfer) Start your thru swing and as you start down, imagine that someone pulls hard on that rope and it spins your hips open. Simultaneously, as your hips spin open you POST UP on a firm left side. If you do not do this you will slide forward and you'll look like any other hacker and your hopes of getting your hands ahead will be dashed. Hit the ball at 50% your normal hitting force and stop your club before it hits the swim noodle. The more advanced you become, move the swim noodle closer to your ball. ----------------------- Drill 3: Address your ball. IMPORTANT: Set your right knee for a golf swing and make 110% sure it stays bent. Before you start your back swing, press your hands forward as far as they will possibly go.... Make sure your right knee stays bent all the way to the top!!! DO NOT LET IT STRAIGHTEN!!! Maintain the forward press!!!! Envision that someone has a rope tied to your left front pocket (right handed golfer) Start your thru swing and as you start down, imagine that someone pulls hard on that rope and it spins your hips open. Simultaneously, as your hips spin open you POST UP on a firm left side. If you do not do this you will slide forward and you'll look like any other hacker and your hopes of getting your hands ahead will be dashed. Hit the ball at 90% your normal hitting force and try to feel your right wrist angle.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - Well, that's all fine and good... I guess... it depends what you're trying to accomplish. Myself? I picked up the game in April 2008. I broke 70 (a 69) April 14, 2010. This past season (2011) I shot in the 60's more than I shot in the 80's. My low round (July 6th, 2011) was 64. I played yesterday, had seven birdies and shot 68 (yeah, if it had been a perfect round would have shot 65, but no one is perfect). My swing is below... I've never been told I look like Hogan, Woods, Couples, etc., but when I rattle off birdie after birdie, get on most par 5s in two, people don't wonder what I look like cause my game says it all. And, because I play "my own game" I don't worry about looking like some other great player. I'm not trying to belittle what you're doing, in the least, I'm just sitting here wondering the purpose. Hope you get good, and most importantly, when you decide to play against high caliber players, that your swing stands up...

wow. i applaud your interest and dedication. i can't say anything but positives to you because you are a man on mission! gotta love that! i especially love the hogan hat in every video. to me, that says it all!!! you are an inspiration!

post face on videos.

Poser, good point and right-o! i could continue to "work on my swing" and certainly will. but,you have to be careful. look at woods with foly - what a train wreck that has become. i don't want to chase that. know what i mean? could i hold the right wrist angle longer? who couldn't! could i turn my left hand, wrist and forearm more as a single unit and have a more natural flowing turn over of my right hand/arm? absolutely! could my right arm be bent more and could i have more lateral bend? absolutely... look at the photos i posted above of the pros... four gifted athletes with all very different impact conditions. they all get it done. point is: you nailed it. what you suggest is spot on. thanks!

hi chipotle, you've hit the nail on the head! the trait that all driver/holder's demonstrate is more (much more) bend in their right arm at impact than the flipper (me) or the roller (mickelson). look at mickelson (below left), especially with his driver. his left arm (trailing arm) is straight at impact. then compare him to the most extreme driver/holder, and you see - BIG TIME. for example, rory sabatini (second from left - and yeah, rory sabatini) is an extreme driver/holder. Next is Rory McIlroy (in red shirt). He's a driver holder but because he has less lateral bend (less than Sabatini) he doesn't get his upper right arm more forward and result is his hands aren't as forward as some players, which goes back to a point I made earlier. How forward do you need to be to be a good consistent player? Then, there's Tiger Woods. I took these videos (and grabbed these stills), and many more, at this past PGA Championship in Johnscreek, GA at the famed 16th tee. As far as driver holder's go, Rory is extreme. The two other fellows that are extreme were Robert Garrigus and Dustin Johnson. the point here, for me at least, is that in saying "try and keep your right elbow bent throughout the whole downswing until it naturally straightens on your follow through" is 1,000,000 times easier said than done. if you've hit a million balls, changing even the slightest thing at impact, is verey very verey difficult. to get there, you HAVE to change other dynamics. first off, to even be in a position to have your hands forward, you have to have a lot of external rotation in your lower body so it is pivoting as quickly as it can over your posted lead leg. and to have that, you have to have a great backswing and be in proper position, etc., etc., what is the point? chipotle - if you were able to add in more and significant bend in your whole downswing by just thinking about then executing, i would say you are probably a gifted athlete. probably more gifted than me. for me, especially when i was trying to become a driver/holder and decided i would be best off by being like lee westwood and padraig harrington (pro flippers), i wish i could have become a driver/holder that easily.

Rusty, You are too nice. Thanks. Tom

michael, thanks for the comment and you're right. getting the handle more forward at impact is a trait of all great and legendary swings. when you inspect the video closely at slow speed ( i use V1 and 240fps video so i can break down all aspects of the swing and know what to work on), the handle is forward. not forward by sergio's standards, but forward enough. what is enough? i've done a lot of work on this... enough is simple and is measurable precisely with video. if you strike the ball with the handle back of ball, you CANNOT control the direction of the golf ball, you have glancing blows and you cannot control distance because you add loft to the club face. this describes most amateurs, and me, when i first started playing. if your hands are equal to the ball you all of a sudden gain better control of the direction, and have better distance control. this describes most good amateurs. if your hands get ahead of the ball, an advanced player shows this trait, you gain even better directional control. but, one of the hardest things to do in golf is change your impact condition by a single inch, two or even three. getting your hands forward is not just a simple matter. it requires an overhaul of the entire swing. mostly a fuller body rotation, better spine angle, impeccable weight shift and lateral bend will get arms/hands in position to be more forward, but i digress. there are three impact types. driver/holder (sergio, tiger), flipper (westwood), roller (mickelson). all have had great successes with their individual swing/impact types. i'm a "pro" level flipper and i'm totally ok with it. i don't flip with chips, pitches or other similar shots (e.g. 67yd pitch to a tight pin), but a flipper none the less. can i change? well, i guess i could, but i have hit a million or more balls and have gotten the flip down. :-)

i do close the club quick. #1: i play with a shut face at top, and #2: i'm a flipper... :-)

my miss is an over draw with driver. but it is quite rare. i am a flipper...albeit a "pro" flipper

Comments welcomed, questions encouraged. 6 iron face on Driver face on

deasy55, oh yeah... if it's on the internet it must be true... i forgot. i read the "post" you referred to by link reference. this wasn't on a reputable website... it was on some individual's website - appeared to be a blog or something. perhaps the individual blogging was trying to get one of bubba's autographs, missed it and is now sobbing angrily so he's trying to get back at bubba by slandering him. appears there's just some ultra liberal double standard european's out there trying to stir the pot... they want the right/freedom to say and do whatever they wish, but when someone else does the same they're lambasted like there's no tomorrow. as to the car bubba "refused to share" the article said "it is believed that bubba didn't..." you don't really believe everything you read, do you?

no worries. i live in metro atlanta, ga. i'm a member of "club corp" which owns a number of prestigious courses. my home course is "bear's best" in suwanee, ga. bear's is a cadre of jack nicklaus' favorite holes from all the courses he has built. if you've ever seen golf channels' "lessons with a pro", jack nicklaus was featured back in like '03 or something, and it was filmed at my club. it's a SWEET club... on inaugural day, jack shot a 71 (par 72). my record at the course is 65. the course record is 64, held by "tommy two gloves gainey." today i shot a 69... fast apporaching that MF's record... i'm playing US Open qualfier on may 17th... if i make it look out for my white ass!!!

Zeph, unless you get your hands consistently more forward the other parts of your swing won't/don't matter [to score]. in fact, i wouldn't think about other parts of your swing until you are able to get your hands more consistently forward. once you've done this i bet two things will happen. 1) your scores will be in the low seventies on great ball striking days and and you'll shoot in the sixties when your putter comes alive 2) you will no longer care about the other parts of your swing. if you have problems with this drill try these three... drill a: take a whisk broom. grab it half way down the handle. stand to a ball that is on a tee. swing at it with your golf swing. you cannot effectively get the ball off the tee unless you have your hands forward at impact. drill b: get a small piece of wood (1" x 2"). tee a ball up 1/2" and when you get more efficient, don't tee the ball up. put the piece of wood 2" behind the ball. stand to the ball. swing at it with your golf swing. you cannot hit the ball without also clipping the wood unless you have your hands forward at impact. drill c: get a can of spray paint. at your golf course's practice area, paint a line on the ground about two feet long and let the paint dry for a minute or two. place a ball on the front of the line you've painted. hit the ball. your goal is to hit the ball without also taking ANY paint. you cannot do this unless you have your hands forward at impact. (when gary player was young he used this drill, only instead of paint he used a very small rope, perhaps a string.) btw, i've tried a pure ball striker. it's a novel thing. but just something someone has dreamt of to make you part with your cash. drill b and c above will ingrain what you need to have any of your clubs be a pure ball striker. drill a is something that will absolutely positively get your hands looking like a tour pro at impact. don't believe me? get your video camera, set it up and video yourself swinging the broom. it's going to look funny to you, but all you care about is "what do my hands look like at impact and beyond?" the video will scare you and you'll immediately think "why do i care about the other parts of my swing..." good luck.

i didn't realize your were a "teaching pro", but as i posted.... i suspected you derive income from your "advice." you espouse stack and tilt and ANYTHING posted from me (or probably guys like me who have a "touring professional game") is threatening so you come out with "oh, you'd better watch out for that drill because..." come on there isacas... leave me alone... i don't care anything about stack and tilt. i'm not going to come around and follow you asking you to defend your "theories" or whatever they are. but, then again i don't derive monetary benefit from doing so. if i did, perhaps i would. for all you guys who are reading this... focus on impact. that's what matters. at impact there are really three imperatives: 1. your left ear should not go in front of the ball. why? because it has been shown that when the head gets in front of the ball, so will the spine. who cares? well, when the spine gets in front of the ball, you WILL cast your hands (early release). who cares? you will have lost majority of your lag. who cares? lag provides the power of the golf swing. what does that matter? ever have a drive that was 40yds ahead of where you normally hit it, and you seemed to have swung slower, but had no idea what you did? well, you had more lag and the ball went further. what else does lag almost certainly guarantee? a) that you won't hit it fat b) that you will have a better turn c) that you will take a GREAT divot 3"-4" in front of the ball d) that the ball will fly truer on your target line (or if you were set up for a draw, that the ball will draw). 2. at impact your hands should be in front of the ball by as much as possible. why? well, for one, this will be a result of having lagged the club down into the ball. and because this will provide the descending blow that we covet in the golf swing. this will compress the ball. hitting down causes a truer ball flight. when a ball struck in this manner flies to the target it will stop close to or on it's landing place, etc., 3. once the ball is struck have your hands remain ahead of the shaft with as much forward shaft lean for as long a period of time as is possible. why? well, for one, this will be a result of having lagged the club down into the ball. and because this will provide the descending blow that we covet in the golf swing. this will compress the ball. hitting down causes a truer ball flight. when a ball struck in this manner flies to the target it will stop close to or on it's landing place, etc.,

ok. time for me to speak up. from previous experience i know that you are interested in promoting something... your website, your golf affiliation, stack and tilt, lessons.. whatever. you've never once just let my posts be without a dissenting comment. every time i post something you come around and essentially say, and i am paraphrasing here, "you're not right, i am." perhaps you lurk around and find golfers with exceptionally low handicaps, then when they post something that may help someone you jump in with $.02 in hopes of silently advertising something? heck i don't know, but i am tired of it. i need to just go over to the "other" forum and stay there because there's not some parasitic imperative to denigrate people who obviously have something good and legitimate to say. the title of MY post is "getting your hands ahead and getting more shaft lean at impact." i provided a very good drill that will help a golfer "feel" this sensation probably more than any other drill that exists. And, drills are just that... something that will help ingrain a sense or what to do. ever heard of a "marching drill" or howzabout a "Drill Sergeant"? these two "drill" things help ingrain a sense of what to do. i was once a beginning golfer. my low round this season is 65 (several 66s, etc.,). i know what the things are that make a good golfer good consistently and what will keep a bad golfer bad consistently. this drill is something that has helped me immensely.

hi there titleistwi, i just had the chance to video tape a drill (noodle drill) you can use to get your hips to slide forward, whilst keeping your head back. if you use the pole drill separately you'll end up with a good feel for how to develop a good repeatable swing. the noodle drill. take a microphone stand. take a swimming noodle. fix the noodle onto the mic stand and place it like i do in the video. this is a barrier that your brain will not let your head cross. the result is your brain says "hey, let's get our hips to slide forward, whilst our head stays back." voila... in the video there are two RED lines and one YELLOW line i'd like you to pay attention to: the line near my head. this is the line that will show that my head will not move toward the target. the line on the left of my hips. this is the line that will show how much my hips will move toward the target. the yellow line in the middle. this is the line representing the "ball line." this is the critical element that when your hands are here, and just past, the shaft should be leaning forward.

interesting. you say "there are better ways" but you don't offer anything... anything i post you seem always to have issue with... i know you're a proponent of stand and tilt... first... on another post you throw up some comparison pix of me and some other golfer(s). then you come over here and pounce on me again. 1. i don't know who the golfers in the photos are, and what situation they're in. are they standing and tilting? i don't know, nor do i care. 2. i'm simply showing a drill here... my photos are not taken in a tournament where i have to do a complete swing.. like the photos you posted. if i were, my swing would be quite different. instead, i'm in my garage in front of a net doing a DRILL... give me a break dude.